Johnson, Mathewson, or Young? Which one do you think was the best?

[CMIZ5290]

When you think of all time greats, these three names always come up. Who do you think was the best, and why? W. Johnson, C. Mathewson, or Cy Young?

[daves_resale_shop]

I say Walter Johnson... Incredible record, and never had the supporting cast that Matty did...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Johnson. I might rate Alexander next, too.

[khkco4bls]

I say John Clarkson

[EvilKing00]

Out if thise 3 id say johnson, but pedro martinez and sandy kofaux would be right there with johnson imo

[Touch'EmAll]

Cy Young was not in the first 5 HOF inductees - Mathewson and Johnson were. But there was a young pitcher in 1915 and 1916 who was 5-1 vs. Walter Johnson in head-to-head games...named Ruth.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

Out if thise 3 id say johnson, but pedro martinez and sandy kofaux would be right there with johnson imo

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I say Walter Johnson... Incredible record, and never had the supporting cast that Matty did...

I SoMe WHaT Agree...
However, Mr .Johnson didn't Live
Under the Constant "New York Pressure" as DiD Mr. Mathewson!

One of the ReaSoNs WhY I HaVe THiS AVaTaR!
I BeLieVe THaT THeY WeRe Equals ~
BuT iN THe EnD... I GiVe THe NoD Ta MaTTy!!!

2 DiFFeReNT TyPeS oF PiTcHeRs THouGH ~
Sort of Like a Young Greg Maddox vs Randy Johnson
of the NoT So ReCent PaST... Aye!?

I do ReMeMBeR ReaDiN THaT Mr. CoBB
Was Caught SaYiN THaT He
GaVe HiS VoTe Ta MiSTaR Johnson...
And iT WaS ALSo SaiD THaT
iT WaS a GooD ReaSoN WHy Mr. CoBB
Crowded the Plate and Bunted quite often
when FaciN Mr. Johnson!
CrowdiN the Plate to intimidate'em...
BunTiN Cause He Couldn't HiT'em!

iN THe EnD... iTs a Very GooD BaSeBaLL DeBaTe

KeViN... THaNKs FiR the GraND ToPiC Ta ToSS ARouND!!!

[glynparson]

gets my vote.

[the 'stache]

Walter Johnson. If he'd have pitched for a team like the Giants, Johnson might have won 500 games.

Consider Walter Johnson's 1910 and 1911 seasons.

In 1910, Johnson was 25-17 on a Senators team that was 66-85 overall.
In 1911, Johnson was 25-13 on a Senators team that was 64-90 overall.

Over the course of those two seasons, Walter Johnson went 50-30, good for a .625 winning percentage. In the games which Walter Johnson did not record a decision, the Senators were 80-145, a .356 winning percentage.

[Fred]

Great stats to support Johnson. Kind of reminds us of Carlton's '72 season when he was 27-10 on a team that went 59-97.

It would be neat to see if someone could compile a stat that shows the records of the teams for both Matty and Walter through out their careers. That could help in closing the debate about the huge gap in lifetime win% that Matty has over Johnson.

[TexasLeaguer]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

I SoMe WHaT Agree...
However, Mr .Johnson didn't Live
Under the Constant "New York Pressure" as DiD Mr. Mathewson!

One of the ReaSoNs WhY I HaVe THiS AVaTaR!
I BeLieVe THaT THeY WeRe Equals ~
BuT iN THe EnD... I GiVe THe NoD Ta MaTTy!!!

2 DiFFeReNT TyPeS oF PiTcHeRs THouGH ~
Sort of Like a Young Greg Maddox vs Randy Johnson
of the NoT So ReCent PaST... Aye!?

I do ReMeMBeR ReaDiN THaT Mr. CoBB
Was Caught SaYiN THaT He
GaVe HiS VoTe Ta MiSTaR Johnson...
And iT WaS ALSo SaiD THaT
iT WaS a GooD ReaSoN WHy Mr. CoBB
Crowded the Plate and Bunted quite often
when FaciN Mr. Johnson!
CrowdiN the Plate to intimidate'em...
BunTiN Cause He Couldn't HiT'em!

iN THe EnD... iTs a Very GooD BaSeBaLL DeBaTe

KeViN... THaNKs FiR the GraND ToPiC Ta ToSS ARouND!!!

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

[Fred]

Denny,

Ross has a point. It is somewhat annoying to read your posts with the UC/LC changes going on. I do enjoy reading your posts.

[PolarBear]

I'm a Matty fan, and used to think he was the best but the more I've studied Johnson, the more I realize he was the best pitcher of all time, and it's not really even close. If he had been on a first division team his entire career, he likely would have had 520 wins and a 75% winning percentage.

[glchen]

Cy Young. Leads all pitchers in WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by PolarBear

I'm a Matty fan, and used to think he was the best but the more I've studied Johnson, the more I realize he was the best pitcher of all time, and it's not really even close. If he had been on a first division team his entire career, he likely would have had 520 wins and a 75% winning percentage.

No argument here.
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 150 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 420 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 364 (1), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 1 (3038), Average HOFer ≈ 50
Pitching - 82 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (1st), 165.6 career WAR/89.5 7yr-peak WAR/127.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

Exactly, I don't even bother trying to read them anymore.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

I actually find it quite amusing.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by TexasLeaguer

Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

You guys obviously don't know Denny! Hope ur doin well u ole scondrel! Fir sure!

[esd10]

I pick mathewson he won when it mattered the most in the world series.

[CurtisFlood]

I'd pick the Big Train for busting up all those boards on his pappy's barn practicing his fast ball. WJ all the way.

[Hankphenom]

It's always been a mystery as to why the award was given Cy Young's name, since few people in 1956 would have named him the best pitcher of all time. As has been pointed out here, he didn't even make the first HOF cut, whereas Walter and Matty did. I'd guess it was because he had just died when they created the award, and Ford Frick thought it would be a nice honor. But it's never really made sense. As for the greatest pitcher, that's impossible to say, since there are about 10 or so for whom a substantial case can be made. But if I had one game to play, and could pick from all the greats in history, I would be very happy to see Walter Johnson on the mound, at around 25 years old, ready to start throwing those smoke balls in one after the other. Cobb said they "hissed with danger," and Sam Crawford told how "they had a 'swish' to them as they passed by you." Yeah, I'll take that guy.

[ValKehl]

If my math is correct, here's the number of times each of these Big 3 led his respective league in the following key stats:

Wins: WaJo-6, Cy-5, Matty-4

Win-Loss %: WaJo-2, Cy-2, Matty-1

Complete games: WaJo-6, Cy-3, Matty-2

Shutouts: WaJo-7, Cy-7, Matty-4

Innings pitched: WaJo-5, Cy-2, Matty-1

Strike outs: WaJo-12, Matty-5, Cy-2

WHIP: Cy-7, WaJo-6, Matty-4

ERA: WaJo-5, Matty-5, Cy-2

Nuf ced - it's WaJo without a doubt!!
Val

[Orioles1954]

Who really knows? I dislike all-time discussions because the game has evolved and changed in so many ways. Johnson played in an era where pitching and defense was king. He didn't face a segment of the greatest ballplayers, nor was physical conditioning regimens or advanced scouting among hitters prevalent. Could he have adjusted....who knows? However, among his contemporaries I'll take him.

[sycks22]

Wajo and Matty are 1/2 and Young isn't a top 5 in my book. I put Rose in the same category as Young: both were really good players, but their stats were accumulated based on the fact that they played forever.

[Fred]

Hey Hank, no bias there huh....

When you read about the things the players of that era would say, then Walter definitely had the high octane stuff. Matty had the screwball and Cy Young had a lot of wins but he also had the benefit of pitching in the 1890s.

Walter's a pretty good choice!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

It's always been a mystery as to why the award was given Cy Young's name, since few people in 1956 would have named him the best pitcher of all time.

What mystery? He held/holds the wins record. That's why the award is named after him.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Tabe

What mystery? He held/holds the wins record. That's why the award is named after him.

Cy Young is obviously an immortal pitcher with his 511 wins one of baseballs "unbreakable" records. However, his 2.63 lifetime ERA isn't remotely close to Matty's 2.13 and Johnson's 2.17 with both of these hurlers allowing a 1/2 run less than Young per nine innings. Young also amassed virtually half his victories in the 19th century, with 3 of those seasons pitching from 57 feet ( as opposed to 60.5 ft). Young's ERA exceeded 3.00 NINE TIMES during his 22 year "dead ball" era career including 5 seasons in a row during the 1890s. Matty only exceeded 3.00 once before his final season (discounting 3 games in his first season), and before 1920, Johnson had ZERO seasons above the 3.00 mark! Simply stated, Johnson and Matty were tougher to hit than Young and were the better pitchers.

Regarding Koufax, while I am a huge fan of his incredible 4-year run, it is believed by most that the Dodger Stadium rubber was nearly 20 inches high; 5 inches or 33% higher than the standard 15 inch mound during that era!!! That constitutes a ridiculous advantage for a pitcher to create a better downhill plane on nearly all of their pitches. Trying to hit his curveball at Dodger Stadium must have been like trying to eat soup wuth a fork! No wonder his road ERA exceeded 3.00, and this must be taken into account when determining his standing among all-time pitchers.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by esd10

I pick mathewson he won when it mattered the most in the world series.

+1

[packs]

In my opinion the greatest starting pitcher of all time was Walter Johnson.

Greatest pitcher inning to inning: Mariano Rivera.

[SteveMitchell]

Because of his supporting cast (rather lack thereof) I would rate Walter Johnson as the greatest of all-time with Grover Cleveland Alexander second. Again, supporting cast would easily give Ol' Pete the edge over Mathewson, in my book. Cy Young would certainly be among the top five but the quality of baseball in Young's early years was not on par with later decades. Lefty Grove would also rank among my top five although Grove brings me to one of my favorite pitchers not in the Hall of Fame: Wes Ferrell.

After Grove's glory days, though still possessing plenty of life in his left arm, he teamed with Ferrell for three full seasons and part of another - Wes being traded to Washington (a club inferior to Boston) part way through 1937. In those four seasons, Ferrell's won-lost log was 73-53 while Grove's stood at 62-41 for a ballclub that was basically .500 (or a bit below for Ferrell when counting his '37 season with the Senators). Not only did Ferrell best Grove in wins those four seasons but his bat usually outpaced his Hall of Fame teammate by more than 100 points (usually doubling Grove's numbers) and probably accounting for much of the difference in their records.

[Joshchisox08]

Great topic Kevin. Surprised there isn't many NY fans pushing for Matty here. Though the Boston ones seem to be making hair brain theories as usual. WAJO no contest. If Johnson pitched on the Giants instead of Matty who knows how many more wins he would have had.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

Pedro ???????? Token the refer I see.

Originally Posted by BeanTown

So if MLB came out with a Doc Gooden award now, that he would make a thread like this 100 years from now?

Cy Young with the length of his career along with the average amount of innings pitched per game, with many complete games should always been the discussion. He just shouldn't bein the discussion because some committee back in the day gave him an award.

I think that is what he is saying.

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Johnson, he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time.

Koufax's name shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread! Statistically speaking he was a MAJOR disappointment for the first 6 years of his career (the only thing he had ever lead the league in was Wild Pitches), he then found his command had 2 pretty good seasons and then 4 absolutely amazing ones. I have never understood how that gets anyone in the "greatest ever" conversation.

I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Great topic Kevin. Surprised there isn't many NY fans pushing for Matty here. Though the Boston ones seem to be making hair brain theories as usual. WAJO no contest. If Johnson pitched on the Giants instead of Matty who knows how many more wins he would have had.



Pedro ???????? Token the refer I see.



I think that is what he is saying.



I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

Thanks Josh...My vote would indeed go for Matty....

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I'd bring up Kofax way before Pedro that's just comical. I know that "Wins" is somewhat difficult to justify a pitchers greatness but 219 for Pedro. Not quite sure I would have voted for him then again I'm openly biased about that DB.

Knocking Pedro for having 219 wins when he has 54 more than Sandy? Pedro's career ERA+ was 154. Sandy's was 131. Pedro had FIVE seasons with an ERA+ of 200 or higher, with his best being 291. Sandy had none. Sandy's best would be (barely) Pedro's sixth-best. Sandy also benefited greatly from pitching in Dodger Stadium in the 60s, perhaps the greatest pitcher's park of all-time. His career road ERA was 3.04.

Koufax was an amazing pitcher. But Pedro was better.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Knocking Pedro for having 219 wins when he has 54 more than Sandy? Pedro's career ERA+ was 154. Sandy's was 131. Pedro had FIVE seasons with an ERA+ of 200 or higher, with his best being 291. Sandy had none. Sandy's best would be (barely) Pedro's sixth-best. Sandy also benefited greatly from pitching in Dodger Stadium in the 60s, perhaps the greatest pitcher's park of all-time. His career road ERA was 3.04.

Koufax was an amazing pitcher. But Pedro was better.

All that tells us that pitching in the AL sucked when Pedro was with Boston. Koufax pitched against Spahn, Gibson, Niekro, Marichal, Perry, Bunning, Jenkins, Carlton all hofers plus teammates Drysdale and Sutton.

Koufax's last 4 seasons ERA were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, 1.73. Pedro only had two seasons in that range. Koufax won 25, 26 and 27 games in a season, Pedro's best was 23. Koufax pitched 11, 7, 8 and 5 shutouts, Pedro's best was 4. Koufax pitched 4 no hitters including a perfect game over 5 seasons. Koufax struck out 382 in a season, Pedro's best was 313. Koufax top 2 in MVP voting 3 times, Pedro 1. Koufax 2 WS MVP, Pedro 0. Koufax WS ERA .095. Pedro postseason ERA 3.46, WS ERA 3.71.

ERA+ is an overrated stat. It is too dependant on peers. Koufax was very tough to hit. His ERA would have been just as good during the steroid era. Hard hit balls against him were generally HRs, even without doping. Most players couldn't make solid contact. His road era was higher but Dodger Stadium was a fair park compared to tiny parks in many other NL cities.

[Bpm0014]

I have trouble reading Denny's posts as well. I find Denny quite entertaining, but find it impossible to read his posts anymore because of the mixture of upper/lower case letters. His writing structure fits that of a poem, however when I start reading.....it is not a poem....just a confusing mixture of letters and shapes and symbols haha.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by rats60

All that tells us that pitching in the AL sucked when Pedro was with Boston. Koufax pitched against Spahn, Gibson, Niekro, Marichal, Perry, Bunning, Jenkins, Carlton all hofers plus teammates Drysdale and Sutton.

Or that might tell us that pitching was king during that generation and there was a reason why rules had to be changed to restore the balance. The fact that Pedro Martinez thrived in the bandbox parks of the A.L. East with roided up batters and the DH is incredible. It's a testament to how great he was as a pitcher, not how terrible pitching was during that era. I can only imagine how 1990s A.L. pitchers like Martinez, Johnson and Mussina would have performed in those massive 1960s ballparks with a free out included!

[midwaylandscaping]

Johnson

[CMIZ5290]

I'll stay with Matty....