N9 Allen & Ginter Flags - Great Britain variations

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich W.

I know this topic goes a little beyond baseball, but I also know a lot of posters collect 19th century non sports issues. Thus, here's my question. The 1999 American Tobacco Guide by Forbes lists two variations for the N9 Flags of All nations Great Britain card. One has a green sun (common) and one has a yellow sun( rare). I have one that has a gold sun that reads "Royal Standard Great Britain" in the sun. Any help on if this is a rarity or if this is just a common variation would be appreciated.

[Archive]

Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I got my A8 Flags of All Nations & The United States of America album out. It includes the N9 (48 cards according to the ACC), N10 (50 cards according to the ACC), N11 (47 cards including territories according to tha ACC) sets. Interesting thing, my album only pictures 95 flags from Nations, but includes the Corea and Roumania (also listed as rare in many reference books), but is missing this particular card all together. Heres the page that has the wording and image of the flag.

OK, got it out and looked a little closer. It seems to be layed out for the most part in N9, then N10, followed by N11 order. According to Forbes & Mitchell, there are 50 N9s, 50 N10s, and 47 N11s. My album shows 38 state flags, followed by 9 territories in the back, just like everyone says it should (ACC and F&M). The N9s and N10s are a little more confusing. The first page of series 1 is above. Below the wording that mirrors the wording on Rich's card are 3 series 1 cards (Ireland, England, Scotland), the a series 2 (Victoria), a series 1 again (New Zealand), a series 2 (Dominion of Canada), then series 1 again (and Corea no less). Then we start on series 1 in alphabetical order just like the Forbes and Mitchell book's checklist says. I'm assuming those first 7 cards are "The United Kingdoms"?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_2nd3rd_pg.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_4th5th_pg.jpg

They also mention a English pennant with Union Jack. My album doesn't show that card or Rich's card anywhere. Heres where it should be.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_where_royalstandard_shouldb.jpg

Forbes & Mitchell also say Roumania is in the first series. Its in the second series in the album.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_roumaniain2nd_series.jpg

Heres where the 1st series ends and the second one starts, as well as the end of the second and the beginning of the United States flags so you can see how the entire album is layed out.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_beginof2nd_series.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/vwtdi55/album_end_of2nd_series.jpg

Not sure what all this means, but at least its food for thought.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

The album you reference mixes up the cards in all 3 series. Your best checklist comes directly from the backs or the cards.

The first series, N9, starts with 48 cards as per the checklist. There are also 2 others, Corea (rare) and Roumania (very rare) that seem to have been printed at the end of the cards cycle. Those 2 cards have checklists that include all 50. I don't know if there are 50-card checklists with the other 48 fronts out there.

Then there are "fancy" versions of 5 others (Austria, France, Holland, Italy, and Japan) which are not very hard to find.

Finally, there is a Belgium fancy card which shows a cigarette pack instead of a flag and the Great Britain yellow sun originally mentioned.

The rarest 4, in order, are Roumania, GB Yellow Sun, Belgium Fancy, and Corea. I will see if I can upload a scan of the first 2.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich W.

Thank you, Eric and Keith for your extensive responses. Eric, is my "gold" sun actually the yellow sun, because I find reference only to a yellow sun and a green sun?

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric

It looks like the green and gold are probably the same. I have a better Yellow Sun (only person with 2?) in great shape somewhere. Can't find at the moment. Also, here's a Roumania. This is my first attempt at posting pics, so if I screw up, sorry.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric

Pics

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Try again

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark H

Mine is yellow. I think it's only either yellow or green; gold would be the yellow:



Very interesting stuff, Keith. Thanks for all the research. This is certainly a confusing set. I've always thought the albums were made available as soon as the cards were, but since they were redeemed with coupons, maybe the coupons weren't available with the first release of these cards, which, in 1887, makes them one of the earliest nonsports card sets.



Here are the England and Union Jack cards you refer to.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

I'm beginning to think the yellow sun variation is not quite so rare. Does anyone else have a Roumania? I had a Belgium fancy for awhile. Corea's go on sale about twice a year.