If the Redskins change their name, how will it affect the collecting hobby?

[DaClyde]

Originally Posted by Footballdude

Well, this got of hand.
I just wanted some opinions about the possible hobby ramifications IF the name got changed because Redskins was viewed as offensive.

Having said that, I think the Washington Warriors would be a good name.

Historically have there ever been any hobby ramifications to a team changing name? It happens a lot, though perhaps not due to the offensive nature of the team name, but I've yet to see any global redaction campaign because a team name changed. Heck, new merchandise is still produced and sold for loads of defunct teams/team names.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by cubsfan-budman

There are many words that were used in the past that were acceptable then that aren't now.

Whether or not Marshall named his team the Redskins to honor his coach, we'll probably never really know for sure. That doesn't change the fact that his coach and 6 of the players were indeed Native American. Therefore, do you really think the name Redskins was intended to be a racial slur at the time?

So because it's offensive now, but wasn't 80 years ago when the team adopted the name, they're supposed to change it? Seriously?!? What if in 80 years from now the word 'dolphin' somehow evolves into a slang word to mean a derogatory term or a racial slur? Do we make the Miami Dolphins change their name? It's a serious question because you are making the same argument about the Redskins name.

[barrysloate]

David- in all fairness, language and culture change all the time. There was a time when "negro" was a commonly used term, and now it's totally disappeared from use. The fact that "Redskins" was acceptable eighty years ago, and it apparently was, doesn't give it a free pass today. Things do change. And it's okay to have the discussion regarding whether or not it's offensive. If most people don't care one way or the other, I'm totally fine with it. But if a large enough group is offended, then it's reasonable to find a substitute.

You may recall the Washington Wizards were once called the Bullets. The team felt it was inappropriate and changed the name. And the St John's Redmen are now called the Red Storm. All well and good.

I don't have that strong an opinion on whether or not the Redskin name stays or goes, just trying to make the point that our language and culture evolves, and certain terms fall out of everyday usage.

[nolemmings]

Given his intense racism against the black man, I highly doubt George Preston Marshall did anything out of honor or respect for the American Indian. This is a man who owned the last team to integrate, forced to do so when Udall and Kennedy threatened to revoke his stadium lease. A man who left behind lots of money at death for a foundation with the proviso that not one penny of it be used for any cause or entity that supported racial integration in any form. A man who required the marching band to play Dixie before the Star Spangled Banner at his home games. A man who so admired and respected Coach Dietz--who may not have been Indian in the first place-- that he fired him after two years. Seems highly doubtful to me that a man like this would make his decision on the team name as any kind of tribute to another race or culture.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You may recall the Washington Wizards were once called the Bullets. The team felt it was inappropriate and changed the name. And the St John's Redmen are now called the Red Storm. All well and good.

I remember when Stanford changed their name from the 'Indians' to the 'Cardinal'. As a kid, I thought: "What's wrong - they have something against Indians?"

Here's an interesting article on that name change: http://nacc.stanford.edu/mascot.html

[Leon]

They should keep the name Redskins. People need to get over all of the tension that is caused by the debate itself.

I say it all of the time, and truly believe it, racism in America is a self perpetuating situation. I am so freaking tired of everything being taken as offensive when it wasn't meant to be that way.

Do we have a White Mrs. America, do we have a National Association for the Advancement of Caucasian people? Do we have a White Entertainment Television, or Affirmative Action for the white people? And if you say...oh, but the abuses in history justify those, I say Bullcrap. When anyone in America can say that their mother of father was a slave then I will concede. As for American Indians, I think we are about there on making them fairly whole. IF you don't think so maybe you need to go to one of the many reservations with Casino's and other amenities that are specifically to address previous prejudices. Of course there is still a ways to go but the more we do to prevent what isn't still an issue the more it stays one....Just my opinion....

[packs]

The thing about names is that if you're appropriating a culture, which the teams are obviously doing by trying to evoke some kind of emotion with the presence of Native American terms or sentiments, you can't tell the culture you're appropriating how to feel about it. So if Native Americans are offended by the appropriation of their culture, that opinion is the only opinion that should matter.

That being said, something I've thought about is the possible repercussions of the names being changed. Native Americans are so marginalized in this country that really their only connection to popular culture or America's zeitgeist is through sports teams. If every sports team with some kind of Native American connection were to change their name, I wonder how Native Americans feel about being totally wiped off the popular culture map.

I see good and bad in appropriation. The bad is offending large groups of people who are already marginalized and were cast off by this country as people who weren't important. The good is that there is at least some semblance of their culture in American minds. Don't know what the solution is other than to find terms and names that Native Americans support.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Leon

They should keep the name Redskins. People need to get over all of the tension that is caused by the debate itself.

I say it all of the time, and truly believe it, racism in America is a self perpetuating situation. I am so freaking tired of everything being taken as offensive when it wasn't meant to be that way.

Do we have a White Mrs. America, do we have a National Association for the Advancement of Caucasian people? Do we have a White Entertainment Television, or Affirmative Action for the white people? And if you say...oh, but the abuses in history justify those, I say Bullcrap. When anyone in America can say that their mother of father was a slave then I will concede. As for American Indians, I think we are about there on making them fairly whole. IF you don't think so maybe you need to go to one of the many reservations with Casino's and other amenities that are specifically to address previous prejudices. Of course there is still a ways to go but the more we do to prevent what isn't still an issue the more it stays one....Just my opinion....

Leon- of all the things you and I disagree on, I don't think I disagree with anything more than the idea that racism is self-perpetuating. That's so wrong that I wouldn't know where to start. But for the sake of friendship, let's move on. I just want my disapproval on record. Thank you...and I won't be debating this point further.

[digdugdig]

Just more fuel convincing me that the words "politically" and "correct" should never be associated with each other.

[packs]

I would encourage anyone interested in what life on a reservation is like today to read any of Sherman Alexie's work. He is a Native American and grew up on a reservation. I think you will see that we have not made any real strides in righting our wrongs and life in America as a Native American is quite hard.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

It's also a myth that the Vikings can hang with my Packers!

Sorry, saw an opening.

I'm was raised in Wisconsin, so am a Packers, not a Vikings, fan.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm was raised in Wisconsin, so am a Packers, not a Vikings, fan.

That's OK, I think they have an ointment for that.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by packs

I would encourage anyone interested in what life on a reservation is like today to read any of Sherman Alexie's work. He is a Native American and grew up on a reservation. I think you will see that we have not made any real strides in righting our wrongs and life in America as a Native American is quite hard.

There are reasons why things are the way they are and there are usually 3 sides to every story. Mostly, today, it seems their problems come from poor education and therefore enormous unemployment. I am not sure whose fault that is but I have an idea (and it usually stares at someone in the mirror). I will just leave it as this site below says...I think it is informative.... Back to the topic for a moment, my guess is that public opinion sways the Redskin management greatly and whichever way that turns so will they. Again, just my opinion on these things, I could be wrong.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/America...rrent_problems


.

[packs]

In my opinion the plight of Native Americans is a direct result of the actions of the US Government.

From that article and just a small sample:

The government in the 1990s promised high financial and economic rewards to the tribes who would agree to the storage of toxic and radioactive waste on their reservation land for several decades. Many American Indians (mainly those of the poorer reservations like the Mescalero-Apache) were tempted by the money and were not aware of the consequences for their health, their environment and life base, which makes the barriers to the reservations' development even more unbreakable.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm was raised in Wisconsin, so am a Packers, not a Vikings, fan.

Okay, so there is one team name that gives me an unpleasant visual: 'Packers'

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Okay, so there is one team name that gives me an unpleasant visual: 'Packers'

Scott- I think you need to take your mind down by the river and beat it on a rock.

[packs]

I know they're not a team anymore but "Oilers" always sounded weird to me.

[drcy]

My sister went to the University of Minnesota and I've informed her what a weenie mascot is a 'Golden Gopher.' Barely a notch above a chipmunk. I tell her Badgers and Wolverines, those are real mascots and, in the wild, a wolverine calls a gopher an hor d'oeuvre.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by packs

I know they're not a team anymore but "Oilers" always sounded weird to me.

Being from Houston the name "Oilers" was apropos. Lots o' oil and oil related stuff in them parts of the country (sic)....