NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:40 AM
Prof_Plum Prof_Plum is offline
bi11h00d
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 208
Default

When I was growing up it was Johnny U and those funky looking high tops. After him it became Elway for me. I just thought Elway was able to do more with less talent around him than any other QB.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-01-2015, 10:24 AM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Bill, it's okay. I have enjoyed reading the analyses that you and Ian have put together. Thanks.

Ian - you really brought back memories. I forgot how much I enjoyed watching Aikman. After the Danny White years he was a real pleasure to have on those 3rd down plays.

The thing I remember most about Montana and Young was that pinpoint accuracy. Kaepernick actually has the ability to make similar throws, but doesn't have the brains and has too much ego. I know this sounds biased, but Wilson has his passing moments as well - not just receivers getting open and lobbing it in, like he did against Green Bay, but some real pin-point stuff. Unfortunately, he mixes that with periods of horror that you would never see out of the top-tier players unless they were injured (like Manning in the playoffs this year).
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-01-2015, 02:01 PM
billyb's Avatar
billyb billyb is offline
Bill Boyd
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Gladwin, Mi, (God's country)
Posts: 1,074
Default

One reason I mentioned Y.A. Tittle, right behind Unitas and Starr was, not only was Tittle an outstanding Quarterback, he was the innovator of the, then termed, "alley-oop" play.
RC Owens was one of his receivers and when they got near the end zone, Tittle would throw a lob pass to Owens and he would out jump the defenders for the ball. Back then, DBs could not defend against the play.
That pay still goes on as you know.
__________________
Norm Cash message to his pitchers, the day after one of his evenings on the town. "If you can hold em till the seventh, I'll be ready"
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-01-2015, 02:46 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyb View Post
One reason I mentioned Y.A. Tittle, right behind Unitas and Starr was, not only was Tittle an outstanding Quarterback, he was the innovator of the, then termed, "alley-oop" play.
RC Owens was one of his receivers and when they got near the end zone, Tittle would throw a lob pass to Owens and he would out jump the defenders for the ball. Back then, DBs could not defend against the play.
That pay still goes on as you know.
As a man living about 6 blocks from old Kezar (now very much downsized), it makes me happy to this see mentioned. We all knew about it as kids from watching the old NFL films stuff. I so wish the Niners were still a neighborhood team playing at Kezar.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-02-2015, 10:38 AM
Tabe's Avatar
Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
Chr.is Ta.bar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 1,410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
Here are some other posts on other forums, people doing a better job than I can:

Drew Brees' history as a stat padder during his tenure as a Saint
I agree that Drew is a stat padder but that article doesn't really help the case. I mean, he includes stuff like this:

"Winning by 11 points in the 4th quarter, Brees throws a TD to Heath Evans to go up by 18 points with 8:38 remaining."

Cuz, yeah, you shouldn't throw TDs when you're only up 2 scores.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-02-2015, 11:25 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 6,928
Default

Hey, where have all the Ryan Leaf fans gone?
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-02-2015, 09:55 PM
HappyJack41 HappyJack41 is offline
Roy W.
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mid/West
Posts: 63
Default

Nobody and I mean NOBODY will ever touch Joe Cool. Some say "well yeah but Brady had to do it in the salary cap area!".....who gives a $hit!, Montana actually had to play against REAL defenses who were actually allowed to play defense and weren't neutered so that the offense always has the advantage as it has been in this league for 15 years now.

Brady has never and will never know what it's like to play against defenses allowed to head hunt on him or jam the living crap out of his receivers on every single play all the way up the field. If he did, he wouldn't have 3 Super Bowls with a 4th trophy gift wrapped last night. And he wouldn't have the stats that he's been able to put up while being pampered by this league for his entire career (ESPECIALLY for the last 8 years under Kraft's butt buddy GODell)
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-04-2015, 04:27 AM
EvilKing00's Avatar
EvilKing00 EvilKing00 is offline
Steve P
Steven Pacc.hiano
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 2,405
Default

top 6 in order IMO - taking into account stats, teams the played for, over all talent and EVERYTHING in general


Manning
Elway
marino
montana
Johnny u
brady
__________________
Successful transactions with: Drumback, Mart8081, Obcmac, Tonyo, markf31, gnaz01, rainier2004, EASE, Bobsbats, Craig M, TistaT202, Seiklis, Kenny Cole, T's please, Vic, marcdelpercio, poorlydrawncat, brianp-beme, mybuddyinc, Glchen, chernieto , old-baseball , Donscards, Centauri, AddieJoss, T2069bk,206fix, joe v, smokelessjoe, eggoman, botn, canjond

Looking for T205's or anything Babe Ruth...email or PM me if you have any to sell.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-06-2015, 06:25 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabe View Post
I agree that Drew is a stat padder but that article doesn't really help the case. I mean, he includes stuff like this:

"Winning by 11 points in the 4th quarter, Brees throws a TD to Heath Evans to go up by 18 points with 8:38 remaining."

Cuz, yeah, you shouldn't throw TDs when you're only up 2 scores.
I only skimmed the post. I agree after looking at it in a little more detail there are some points made that are not good examples of stat padding. Up by 11 with 8 + minutes to go, you should go for the kill shot. I felt that way before the NFC Championship Game, and I definitely feel even more so, now.

But there are clear examples when the Saints are up big, where the other team is clearly inferior, and out of the game, where Brees is throwing the deep ball looking for more yardage and touchdowns to make his box score look better. Then he has the nerve to say "it was all about my team, not me" after the game.

Please.

By the way, I am not meaning to suggest Brees is the only one that does this. But it sure seems to me that Brees has done it more often than the other quarterbacks I've watched.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-06-2015, 06:30 PM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyJack41 View Post
Nobody and I mean NOBODY will ever touch Joe Cool. Some say "well yeah but Brady had to do it in the salary cap area!".....who gives a $hit!,
Well, you should, because it's a valid point. Keeping a great team together today is much more difficult than it was in Montana's day.

Think Bradshaw wins four Super Bowls in the salary cap era? No way. He doesn't have Swann, Stallworth, Franco Harris, that offensive line, and a defense with Mean Joe Green, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert, L.C. Greenwood, etc in the cap era. Other teams start offering money the Steelers can't compete with. The team falls apart.

The same thing would have happened to Montana. Rice was otherworldly. As I said before, the second best receiver to ever play the game, and the greatest in modern football. The Niners would have kept Montana and Rice. That means they lose the complimentary pieces like Tom Rathman, Roger Craig, John Taylor, etc. They don't keep that offense together. Montana is having to get used to new young guys much more often. I'm not saying that Montana isn't able to develop great chemistry with those new receivers, but it would take a while.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 02-06-2015, 06:49 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Ask yourself how many of the offensive players that Brady has played with (for any extended period time) will make it to Canton. Not the in-and-outs like Randy Moss - I mean a sustained period of time - it ain't many I can think of. Sort of puts his skill in perspective for me.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 02-06-2015, 08:42 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
Ask yourself how many of the offensive players that Brady has played with (for any extended period time) will make it to Canton. Not the in-and-outs like Randy Moss - I mean a sustained period of time - it ain't many I can think of. Sort of puts his skill in perspective for me.
I honestly can't think of a single skill player, aside from Moss that is a HOFer. On this team, Edelman is a very very good slot guy, but I think Gronk is the only pass catcher/skill man that even has a shot at the HOF. I think he'd still need 5-6 more years at peak production to have a shot.

He also hasn't had many All Pro or Pro Bowl caliber guys either. I'm not gonna dig through the past 15 years' worth of rosters right now, but just thinking back, the best skill guys I remember (Pro Bowl worthy or close) were Troy Brown, Corey Dillon, Wes Welker, BenJarvus Green Ellis, Edelman, Hernandez, Branch (barely), Blount (barely)

Others- Jermaine Wiggins, Ben Watson, Reche Caldwell, Stevan Ridley, David Patten, Givens, Antowaine Smith, Woodhead, Maroney, LaFell, etc were solid producers but not league stars.

Almost no one jumps out at you, yet he's amassed some amazing stats and 4 rings. One thing the Pats have done so effectively is to identify individuals' strengths and put them in, or even create, rolls that are ideal for them. I can't think of another team where each guy seems to fill his specific role so well, and these roles really accentuates their skills.. sorta like the NFL's Spurs. Brady as a QB has been able to take full advantage of these players' talents/roles and should be credited for doing this so effectively.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 02-08-2015, 06:43 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
Ask yourself how many of the offensive players that Brady has played with (for any extended period time) will make it to Canton. Not the in-and-outs like Randy Moss - I mean a sustained period of time - it ain't many I can think of. Sort of puts his skill in perspective for me.
Welker, Gronk and Moss are as good any other qb has had. They are all potential hofers. Montana had Rice, that's it. Clark or Taylor weren't as good as those guys and Montana won 2 without Rice. Manning had Harrison who is struggling to make the hof. Wayne sucks, all he did is quit on his route costing Manning his 2nd Super Bowl. He does have Welker helping extend his career. Marino, Elway and Favre had little to help them.

Brady also had the greatest kicker of all time. How many does he win without him? He has had great defenses on the first 3 and he knew what defense the other team was in. I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 02-08-2015, 07:33 AM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Wrong. Barry Bonds never won anything.
His postseason BA = .245 including three postseasons where he batted under .200.

Moss was there for 3+ years - he will be a HOF. He was one bf he got there.
Welker has a shot - Wayne has just a good a shot to me and certainly Harrison does too.
Gronk looks like he is well on his way but he has shown a proclivity to get injured.

Id also say Edgerrin James will be a HOFer long bf any back Brady played an extended period of time with.
Same can be said for Roger Craig.

I don't remember the Wayne play but I would also say that playing less than ordinary against the Seattle D cost Manning his second Super Bowl as well.
Good thing Tom knew exactly what D they would be in every play this time around - especially the fourth quarter.

You've added a whole new spin to this though - Tom owes his success largely to his kicker.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."

Last edited by HRBAKER; 02-08-2015 at 10:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 02-08-2015, 07:38 AM
TUM301 TUM301 is online now
H Murphy
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western Mass
Posts: 1,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
Ask yourself how many of the offensive players that Brady has played with (for any extended period time) will make it to Canton. Not the in-and-outs like Randy Moss - I mean a sustained period of time - it ain't many I can think of. Sort of puts his skill in perspective for me.
This makes the most sense to me. Hard to come up with a "greatest" of all time but it seems the so-called experts and many football fans in the Brady camp refer to the evolving players and the 14 season period of excellence. Every "greatest" QB or team for that matter has warts if we really want to start digging, every one. Unlike baseball, which I feel has stayed relatively the same for the last 2 generations, football has gone through dramatic changes. At best we can come up with the "greatest" for different eras. Baugh,Unitas, Roger S, Bradshaw, Montana, and Brady. One item I do agree with is that you have had to have played big, I E carry a S Bowl team, to be considered the greatest of your era. Pitchers and catchers less than 2 weeks !!!
__________________
H Murphy Collection https://www.flickr.com/photos/154296763@N05/
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 02-08-2015, 09:51 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Brady also had the greatest kicker of all time. How many does he win without him? He has had great defenses on the first 3 and he knew what defense the other team was in. I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.
While Vinateri is among the best, he's not even the best the pats have had. He was great in bad weather, which counts for a lot here, but was pretty average on longer kicks ~ 50+. Gostkowski is 3% better overall, and much better beyond 50 yards 13/17 compared to 23/41. Vinateri has been much better indoors at Indy. He gets a lot of props for kicking so many winners in big games. Only time will tell if Gostkowski keeps up the pace he's on.

I'm a Pats fan and a big fan of both Brady and Vinateri but wouldn't rank either as #1 all time at their position. Brady wins a lot, and with supposedly very little, but there's always at least one very good receiver and a bunch of guys who would be farther up the depth chart anywhere else. That's makes for odd statistical stuff because of a system that emphasizes individual matchups and depth. Not many players will put up huge numbers in NE, but more will get decent playing time. The exceptions are the guys like Moss, Welker, and Gronk. And even Gronk has games where he's not a primary part of the offense. Hard to keep him out of it, but there's games where you can tell he's doing more blocking and pulling defenders away from the play than being the primary receiver.

To keep on topic- I've been thinking over the original question and keep coming back to some interviews with players who mentioned Bradshaw as the smartest player they'd played with or against and that he called his own plays. If that's correct, I'd have to lean toward him as the best I've seen.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 02-08-2015, 10:40 AM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 02-08-2015, 12:24 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
I don't remember the Wayne play but I would also say that playing less than ordinary against the Seattle D cost Manning his second Super Bowl as well.
Good thing Tom knew exactly what D they would be in every play this time around - especially the fourth quarter.

You've added a whole new spin to this though - Tom owes his success largely to his kicker.
You must not watch the Super Bowl when NE doesn't play. In the Colts-Saints SB, Manning was driving to tie the game in the 4th quarter. Manning audibled to a quick pass against a Saints blitz. For some reason Wayne half-assed his route and it resulted in a pick 6 that put the game away.

You really don't think Brady owes a big part of his success to Adam Vinateri? If he doesn't make two kicks in the snow vs. the Raiders, Brady doesn't come close to SB 36, won on his last second FG. SB 38 also won on his last second FG. Be glad Scott Norwood wasn't your kicker or Mike Vanderjagt who was one of the most accurate kickers of all time, but missed key playoff FGs against the Dolphins and Steelers, ending two Manning playoff runs.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 02-08-2015, 01:30 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

I simply said I don't remember the play, I didn't say it didn't happen. Manning had ample chance to win a 2nd Super Bowl last year again - he came up noticeably short, again. He has 3 TD passes in 132 SB pass attempts. That's not all lazy route running.

They're not my kickers - I'm an Arizona Cardinals fan not a Pats fan. And no, I don't think Brady or NE owes an inordinate amount of their success to their kickers. It's an interesting narrative though. It is certainly better to have a good one than one that sucks. At the end of the day someone has to put the kicker in the position to win it for you.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."

Last edited by HRBAKER; 02-08-2015 at 01:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 02-08-2015, 02:58 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Welker, Gronk and Moss are as good any other qb has had. They are all potential hofers. Montana had Rice, that's it. Clark or Taylor weren't as good as those guys and Montana won 2 without Rice. Manning had Harrison who is struggling to make the hof. Wayne sucks, all he did is quit on his route costing Manning his 2nd Super Bowl. He does have Welker helping extend his career. Marino, Elway and Favre had little to help them.

... I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.
You're all over the map. First, Taylor was a great receiver and an absolute physical specimen when he played. I'm guessing your opinion isn't going much further than his statistics here, but at 6' 1" he had the leaping ability (think 40"+) to play like a guy 6' 5". He was incredibly strong (routinely ran through safeties/corners), was an incredible blocker, had great hands and ability to adjust to the ball, and had equal to or better than run after catch skills than Rice (watch highlights). If he'd been a number 1, or if the Niners threw as much/ran as many play as current offenses, he could have been a 1200-1500 yard guy routinely. Clark and Soloman were very good receivers too.

Montana also had Craig, who won't make the HOF, but at the time was one of strongest runners in the league, and was no doubt the most versatile back (original Marshall Faulk, but stronger). Craig and Tyler (another 1,000+ guy) overlapped for a few years, with Craig playing as fullback. Except for 1981 the Niners were stacked offensively, also having a string of very productive WRs/TEs/FBs (TE/FB being very important to the old West Coast offense). Manning had Edge, and used the play action pass as well as anyone in his time. Play action success is wholly dependent on a good running game.. and it's a heck of a lot easier to throw when LBs, even safeties take 1-2 steps forward before back peddling. Dillon was probably the only true #1 (top 10) back Brady's had, and think he was only on one SB team. This year against the Seahawks, the Pats' short passing game (especially early) basically took the place of any running game. Brady and Co executed it to near perfection.

Welker won't sniff the hall of fame, but I'll give you he was a very very good receiver for Brady. On Welkers level though, you could then make arguments for the very good guys Marino had- Marks brothers (Duper and Clayton), the whole lot of guys Favre had- Sterling Sharpe (HOFer if not for neck injury), Anotinio Freeman/Robert Brooks/Donald Driver/Chmura/K Jackson/J Walker (all top performers at their peak), and the incredible trio Elway had when he finally won the SB- Ed McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Terrell Davis.

Brady's cast (save for maybe 2007) has never been as dynamic as these other QBs'.

Last edited by itjclarke; 02-08-2015 at 03:48 PM. Reason: wording correction
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 02-08-2015, 03:11 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

BTW- to say Reggie Wayne sucks based on one play (which I doubt you really understand) is crazy. One, Porter's jump was incredible, two, how do you know how Wayne is supposed to run his route on any given look? Their inside guy is running a slant as well.. do you want him to run a hard slant up his back? Over his career he's been one of the most reliably consistent receivers in the league. He's not the most flashy or athletic, but gets open and catches the ball. I can assure QBs love his type of receiver because he's a dependable safety net and they know where he's going to be. He is also a likely HOFer (as is Harrison, and Edge). Add Stokely as the slot guy, Dallas Clark at TE and I think it's tough to argue Manning's Colts teams weren't totally stacked.

... and look what he's had in Denver?!?!? Demarious, Decker, Julius Thomas, and any of the string of productive RBs.

Manning does get great credit for play calling, spreading the ball around, giving his guys an opportunity to succeed.. but you cannot even compare the skill guys Brady has had to the ones he's had.

Last edited by itjclarke; 02-08-2015 at 03:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 02-08-2015, 03:30 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

Stop it Ian, you're making too much sense.

Manning is a GREAT QB, Brady is better, particularly @ nut cuttin' time.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."

Last edited by HRBAKER; 02-08-2015 at 03:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 02-08-2015, 03:51 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
Stop it Ian, you're making too much sense.

Manning is a GREAT QB, Brady is better, particularly @ nut cuttin' time.
I keep telling myself to just move on, to ignore these threads... (cue Pacino voice) but they keep pulling me back in!
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 02-08-2015, 04:00 PM
FenwayFaithful's Avatar
FenwayFaithful FenwayFaithful is offline
Chris
member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 35
Default

.

Last edited by FenwayFaithful; 05-18-2017 at 07:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 02-08-2015, 06:01 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?
Short answer - Hardly any that I can recall, and none recently (Plunkett won a SB after he left but was pretty much the same just on a better team)

Longer answer -
Quite a few have come to NE either underused or coming from roles that weren't appropriate - like Welker. He was really good in Miami, but they had him only doing returns the first couple years - Averaged around 3 targets a game. His last year there he averaged 6 targets a game, but only caught about half. Totally killed NE though. And while he's not Mannings favorite he's still doing very well for the number of times he's thrown to. Best catch % since 07 not as good yards/catch, but he is 33 and a most guys who go over the middle as much as he does/did drastically slow down after 30.

Some came here with supposed "issues" Like Corey Dillon. Yeah he bitched a lot after a few years in Cincinnati, but that team was really bad the whole time he was there but kept claiming they were going to get it together. 7 years of that along with the constant turnover of very mediocre QBs would make anyone interested in winning a bit grouchy.
Moss also came in as a washed up malcontent. I was actually disappointed they took him instead of T.O. (So yes, my football skills judgements may be a bit suspect )
Many of those guys were at or near the end of their careers and got in a year or a few more playing at a decent level. Or in the case of Moss a very high level.

A LOT of NE players who have left, skills players or otherwise have done well after leaving. Not blown up, but not much falloff if any. With the number of supporting cast getting moved every year it was and still is fun to see how many EX NE players were in any particular game. Almost all the playoff contenders had a couple.

What fascinates me is the system - I've watched a few shows that actually had access to Bellicheck coaching, and even the approach is somewhat different than some coaches. And it all seems to be geared towards having the people who are happy with a role, and not overloading the guys with potential. One interview with a player who'd been and gone in a year or two was interesting. The player said his first team basically handed him a thousand pages of plays and said "learn this by the end of camp" Then sent him out on plays he wasn't suited for or into bad matchups. Result? Poor performance and poor confidence. Patriots? He said they had him learn basic stuff in camp but focused on skills and work. First week he had a total of two plays he had to know inside out and had to know what situation they thought those plays might be used. And when that situation came up he had to be standing there ready to go in. Week 2 a few more plays. And if he was ready he got to go in on plays he was suited for usually with a decent matchup. Result? Less playing time fewer plays, but far better results and very high confidence.
(I don't have the skills for sure, but I've heard that knowing you can do what's needed to compete is way more important than it might seem)

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 02-08-2015, 06:21 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:32 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B
Quote:
Originally Posted by itjclarke View Post
Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:43 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,059
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B
I loved Troy Brown when he played DB those couple years. Edelman played some DB as well (both out of necessity). They, and Woodhead were all incredibly versatile.. pure football players who will do anything asked. I'm sure Edelman could kick/punt too.

I'm not really saying these guys can only do one thing.. But that their roles are so well utilized, they can flourish within them. I don't think Edelman likely becomes a star anywhere else. I'm not sure he even gets a shot anywhere else, but the Pats have a knack at finding malleable pieces that can fit their system. Edelman is a great slot guy, and also nicely fills the roll of the old wing or "fly back" on those quick running sweeps. I'm guessing he'll pass out of the look at some point too.

Player versatility is always a good thing. Guys like Harbaugh (Roman) made a living with that at Stanford and the NFL. He could just as easily pass out of a two TE, one fullback, jumbo package as he could out of 4-5 wides, just because his players could perform both rolls. The Niners were at their peak when they had both Delaney Walker and Vernon Davis because both could run block, allowing the Niners to pound it, and both were really fast, creating major mismatches... Thus the Niners could accomplish a wider range of things out of a single look than is the norm. This, when working was a nightmare for defenses trying to sub to the right personnel packages, and make their calls. I think losing Delaney this past year was a pretty big blow to the Niners, because they lost some of that versatility.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:37 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Versatility is always good.

Some of the doing well in the role is because the roles are adjusted to the players best skills. I think it was in the episode of a football life Bellicheck talked about how if a route calls for a player to get to a spot say going 15 yards deep and cutting left but it needs to be done in a certain time like 3 seconds and the guy you have isn't quick enough? Then you adjust the route to maybe 12 yards or a softer cut so he's in place right on time (Assuming proper execution) There was also talk about not adjusting towards a teams weaknesses, but more towards limiting their strengths by play selection and matchups. Very interesting stuff. The scene where Brady is in his office either early or late and watching video of plays until he notices some tiny thing that's tipping when the opponent might be out of position.....Great behind the scenes stuff.

Steve B

Quote:
Originally Posted by itjclarke View Post
I loved Troy Brown when he played DB those couple years. Edelman played some DB as well (both out of necessity). They, and Woodhead were all incredibly versatile.. pure football players who will do anything asked. I'm sure Edelman could kick/punt too.

I'm not really saying these guys can only do one thing.. But that their roles are so well utilized, they can flourish within them. I don't think Edelman likely becomes a star anywhere else. I'm not sure he even gets a shot anywhere else, but the Pats have a knack at finding malleable pieces that can fit their system. Edelman is a great slot guy, and also nicely fills the roll of the old wing or "fly back" on those quick running sweeps. I'm guessing he'll pass out of the look at some point too.

Player versatility is always a good thing. Guys like Harbaugh (Roman) made a living with that at Stanford and the NFL. He could just as easily pass out of a two TE, one fullback, jumbo package as he could out of 4-5 wides, just because his players could perform both rolls. The Niners were at their peak when they had both Delaney Walker and Vernon Davis because both could run block, allowing the Niners to pound it, and both were really fast, creating major mismatches... Thus the Niners could accomplish a wider range of things out of a single look than is the norm. This, when working was a nightmare for defenses trying to sub to the right personnel packages, and make their calls. I think losing Delaney this past year was a pretty big blow to the Niners, because they lost some of that versatility.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 02-10-2015, 10:13 AM
t206blogcom t206blogcom is offline
Jason Stricker
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,234
Default

Joe Montana #1 all time.

Favre and Brady are tied for 2nd in my opinion.
__________________
T206 518/518
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 02-10-2015, 01:01 PM
drcy's Avatar
drcy drcy is offline
David Ru.dd Cycl.eback
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,466
Default

While I wouldn't say the best while playing, a major positive in Favre's favor is played so many games-- has the consecutive game's record. As I've often said, a good player in the game is more valuable than a the all-time best sitting on the bench. As a coach, I might pick Favre over all others merely because I know he'll be playing all the games.

I think a fair argument is Favre was the best in the 'real world, when the rubber hits the road' sense (versus the abstract geek sense, bleeping over games missed), because he played never missed a game.

Just saying that's a fair argument in Favre's favor, and one that I think is often overlooked.

I am a lifelong loyal Packers fan, but, for the record, Favre began to majorly annoy me when he did that annual retiring-retraction schtick and leaving for the VIkings was the opposite of endearing. And he did throw too many interceptions. So my homer bias is sweet and sour as far as he goes.

Last edited by drcy; 02-10-2015 at 01:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 02-10-2015, 02:42 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Brett Favre didn't leave Green Bay for the Vikings.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-10-2015, 11:48 PM
Mainstreetsportscards Mainstreetsportscards is offline
Jeff Francis
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Vermont
Posts: 46
Default

Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb I have seen play the game... I am a 49ers fan and want to say Joe Montana is the best ever, but my eyes tell me Rodgers is the best I've ever seen...
__________________
Owner of Main Street Sports Cards In Vermont!
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 02-12-2015, 05:31 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default

Steve Bartkowski...
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-12-2015, 05:37 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Truthfully, for me it's a tie between Clint Longley and Doug Flutie. I only saw each one of them throw one pass, but they were good ones.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:55 PM
Lgarza99's Avatar
Lgarza99 Lgarza99 is offline
Luis
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: CA
Posts: 236
Default

Joe Montana will always be the greatest QB imho. Whatever "it" is? Joe had "it"!!
__________________
Regards,
Lu.i$ G@.rz@
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 02-13-2015, 08:03 PM
vintagebaseballcardguy's Avatar
vintagebaseballcardguy vintagebaseballcardguy is offline
R0b3rt Ch!ld3rs
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,512
Default

I enjoyed watching Dan Fouts...
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 02-14-2015, 07:01 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Truthfully, for me it's a tie between Clint Longley and Doug Flutie. I only saw each one of them throw one pass, but they were good ones.
priceless
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-14-2015, 08:10 PM
freakhappy's Avatar
freakhappy freakhappy is offline
Mike C@.v3
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: OHIO
Posts: 2,102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lgarza99 View Post
Joe Montana will always be the greatest QB imho. Whatever "it" is? Joe had "it"!!
Well, we just found out that he had stickum

All jokes aside, Montana was the dude
__________________
T206's Graded low-mid 219/520
T201's SGC/PSA 2-5 50/50
T202's SGC/PSA 2-5 10/132
1938 Goudey Graded VG range 37/48
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 02-14-2015, 09:10 PM
RTK's Avatar
RTK RTK is offline
Rick
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 335
Default

Montana & Favre
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 02-15-2015, 08:25 AM
rsn1661 rsn1661 is offline
Rich Nelson
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Lima, Ohio
Posts: 172
Default

I think it was in 71 l saw Unitas play, although it was just in the college all star game at Soldiers Field in Chicago. If I am not mistaken the quarterback for the college team was Jim Plunkett. Needless to say the Colts won.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 02-15-2015, 10:33 AM
talkinbaseball talkinbaseball is offline
John
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 596
Default QB

the best ones I've seen through the years:
I'm 58

Gabriel
Starr
Joe Willie
Staubach

then you have the next level.

Montana
Bradshaw
Brady
Unitas
Otto Grahman
Bobby Layne
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 02-15-2015, 06:57 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

Best pure passer -- Jurgensen.
Best combination passer and runner -- Young.
Best overall QB including intangibles -- Brady.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's ksabet Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 167 08-20-2014 01:28 AM
Greatest games of the pre-war era? wolterse Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 09-29-2013 06:21 PM
1967 Bart Starr Quarterback game need help?? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 1 11-25-2007 08:19 PM
TSN 100 Greatest... Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 90 05-17-2007 03:43 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:00 AM.


ebay GSB