Name 3 HOF'ers you don't think belong

[bravos4evr]

A companion piece to the the thread where we named the 3 guys we think most belong in the hall who have yet to get elected. i want to know the 3 guys in who you think didn't deserve it! (try to keep it more modern as i know many of the dead ball era guys got in for reasons more about nostalgia than statistics)

1- Jim Rice - counting stats are good but not great, WAR makes him only the 76th best OF'er all time. If he had played for Cleveland he would have never even been considered. He also presents a problem because so many modern guys rank above him (Berkman, Andruw Jones, Beltran) in stats and WAR that how do you keep them out yet rationalize Rice in?

2-Phil Rizzuto- should be in for broadcasting, but not for playing. in WAR he ranks 26th in the live ball era, posted a career 96 wRC+ and a .706 OPS. Good solid player, but not a HOF'er

3- Bill Mazeroski- mediocre hitter, great glove, but not a great enough player to be in the HOF. in more for that one HR and for making the right friends on the veteran's committee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Schoendienst
Slaughter
Kell

[Griffins]

Blyleven
Maz
Bowie Kuhn

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sutter
Gordon
Maranville
Tinker

oops exceeded my limit

[bobbyw8469]

Jim Rice
Ron Santo

You can have my extra spot Peter.

[packs]

Grimes
Lyons
Tinker

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Jim Rice
Ron Santo

You can have my extra spot Peter.

Lindstrom and Hafey.

[KingFisk]

Jim Rice, Bill Mazeroski, Andre Dawson

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[glynparson]

Dick Williams
Red Schoendienst
George Kell

As for the argument the last 3 outs aren't more important i could not disagree more. like closing out a series is tougher than winning one game so is closing out a game easier than a regular inning. Pressure does exist even for elite athletes.

[Econteachert205]

Ill just argue for one. Sandy Koufax. Depending on how you look at it he had 5-6 really good seasons, 4 of which were out of this world. He did this during an era where pitchers started to dominate. No doubt he was better than many pitchers from that era in the hof (including teammates like Drysdale and Sutton), but I don't think that being the best for five years is good enough. To me his numbers look like Ron Guidry's. Anyone arguing for his induction?

[glynparson]

Ron had a better stretch than many think but it wasn't up to the stretch Koufax had IMHO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Ron had a better stretch than many think but it wasn't up to the stretch Koufax had IMHO.

Gooden had a great stretch to start his career too. Koufax only won 20 three times.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Gooden had a great stretch to start his career too. Koufax only won 20 three times.

who cares about pitcher wins??? Koufax had 3 9+WAR seasons and his last 6 seasons he had an ERA under 2 and an FIP of like 2.05 that's elite levels of elite pitching.

plus 54.5 WAR in only a little over 10 year career is pretty damned impressive stuff

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

A companion piece to the the thread where we named the 3 guys we think most belong in the hall who have yet to get elected.

What thread would that be? Are you talking about the thread that specifically said:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

I use to be caught with these debates about who shouldn't be in. Then the more I looked at the 700 card sets where only handful of players are even recognizable I realized most players that were able to make a career of this game are already a lot better than they get credit for on a daily basis.

Out of the 18,444 players to play a major league game less than 160 have a career spanning at least 20 years. And not even all of those guys are considered HOF players. Since EVERY single player is better than I ever was I have now decided I would not decide that any player should not be in the HOF.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

What thread would that be? Are you talking about the thread that specifically said:


I use to be caught with these debates about who shouldn't be in. Then the more I looked at the 700 card sets where only handful of players are even recognizable I realized most players that were able to make a career of this game are already a lot better than they get credit for on a daily basis.

Out of the 18,444 players to play a major league game less than 160 have a career spanning at least 20 years. And not even all of those guys are considered HOF players. Since EVERY single player is better than I ever was I have now decided I would not decide that any player should not be in the HOF.

well, that's your opinion man, but I think that educated fans who study the game and understand the statistics of the game are just as qualified as most of the writers who vote for the HOF in determining who is or isn't qualified (and often more so judging by some of these goofy votes recently)

[Peter_Spaeth]

He isn't usually mentioned in these discussions, but Newhouser does not seem too impressive at first blush.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

well, that's your opinion man, but I think that educated fans who study the game and understand the statistics of the game are just as qualified as most of the writers who vote for the HOF in determining who is or isn't qualified (and often more so judging by some of these goofy votes recently)

Are you really replying to me? It sounds like you are trying to counter something I said, but yet nothing in your statement does counter me. They are their own stand alone thoughts that have nothing to do with what I said.

My point was that if someone gets an honor for doing a job that very few people even have the ability to maintain then I am not going to come along and say they don't deserve the honor.

If I got an honor at work of let's say "Employee of the year" (not really a thing at my job, just using it for an example), then I wouldn't really be happy if people from outside my industry started to say I didn't deserve it. Just let me have the honor and move on.

I don't mind trying to say you believe someone else deserves the honor, but I don't like trying to second guess someone else's decision to bestow an honor on someone else after the fact.

I love looking over player stats and researching them. But trying to say someone is worse than what others think seems like a negative approach to the conversation.

[pclpads]

Expect to get some heat for this, but I felt the same way about his election as I did Maz'. Maz' only HOF credential was a HR in the '60 WS. With Ozzie, great acrobatic shortstop, but the poster boy for, "good field / no hit." Being a one-trick pony ballplayer shouldn't get you in the HOF. It's why Edgar Martinez should never be in. Career DH and he's a HOF candidate? WTF?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Expect to get some heat for this, but I felt the same way about his election as I did Maz'. Maz' only HOF credential was a HR in the '60 WS.

The Hall honors greatness, and being the greatest defensive second baseman in the history of the game is reason enough for inclusion among the immortals. The guy had a 23.9 dWAR, and 8 Gold Gloves.

I just don't get the line of thinking many have about the Hall; the guys that put runs on the board for their team....do they have a bigger impact on winning than the guys who help their team keep runs off the board?

A hitter comes to the plate four, maybe five times a game. A defender is out there for nine innings, and at any moment, the ball could be screaming in their direction.

Maz had 11,863 defensive chances at second base. He turned 1,706 double plays. How many hits, or runs, did he prevent with his glove?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Expect to get some heat for this, but I felt the same way about his election as I did Maz'. Maz' only HOF credential was a HR in the '60 WS. With Ozzie, great acrobatic shortstop, but the poster boy for, "good field / no hit." Being a one-trick pony ballplayer shouldn't get you in the HOF. It's why Edgar Martinez should never be in. Career DH and he's a HOF candidate? WTF?

Using JAWS, Ozzie ranks well ahead of Jeter and Larkin, interestingly. And I believe that does not even include defense.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Are you really replying to me? It sounds like you are trying to counter something I said, but yet nothing in your statement does counter me. They are their own stand alone thoughts that have nothing to do with what I said.

My point was that if someone gets an honor for doing a job that very few people even have the ability to maintain then I am not going to come along and say they don't deserve the honor.

If I got an honor at work of let's say "Employee of the year" (not really a thing at my job, just using it for an example), then I wouldn't really be happy if people from outside my industry started to say I didn't deserve it. Just let me have the honor and move on.

I don't mind trying to say you believe someone else deserves the honor, but I don't like trying to second guess someone else's decision to bestow an honor on someone else after the fact.

I love looking over player stats and researching them. But trying to say someone is worse than what others think seems like a negative approach to the conversation.

I'm sorry, but this reeks of 'everyone gets a trophy " to me. Players play the game, their statistics tell us how well they played it. For some guys to be in lowers the level for allowing future players. Just because some group made decisions in voting (or selection in the case of the Vet's committee) doesn't mean the rest of us are bound to approve of said choices.

If you make the HOF mean less by letting in lesser players, the "honor" as you put it, becomes less meaningful.

[rats60]

Rizzuto
Santo
Sutter