blank FRONTS for t206 or others?

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Posted By: robert a

Anyone have any cards that have blank fronts, but complete backs?

Please post the front and back if you have one.

Thanks.

Rob

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Posted By: leon

Sorry for the other images...ya take the good with the bad....

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Sorry, no image available at this time.

Scott

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Posted By: leon

Long time no talk to. You feel my T204 blank front is really just the other half of the card, correct? Ramlys were made in 2 halfs and glued together if I remember the conversation correctly....or am I mistaking ?....Have you seen T204s that were pulling apart, from front to back?

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Here are just a few:





I have several more and real nice t206's, some t205's and several other brands both vintage to modern. Most are out at a grading company now.


Kevin

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Posted By: mr. moses

are these cards you've created like the blanks you showed in a prior thread? I am sort of new to the board. Am I understanding correctly that you investigate and explore card alteration and card anomalies? If that is in fact your mission I applaud you. If not I apologize for the assumption. If you want to respond to my email that's fine or not at all that's fine too. I'm easy going

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Posted By: John

If Kevin did create those I certainly wouldn’t applaud him…if anything I would avoid doing any kind of transaction with him at all costs.

It's kind of odd I never seem to see these come up for auction, in fact in watching auctions for many years I don’t remember seeing many if any of these type cards for sale. So Kevin where did you run across them????

I still can see the silhouette on the T206 is that right????

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<If Kevin did create those I certainly wouldn’t applaud him…if anything I would avoid doing any kind of transaction with him at all costs.>>

Although I will not presume to speak for Kevin, I would imagine that the cards he has are not for sale. Nor has Kevin ever sold anything deceptively or that he worked on.

Kevin has helped many fellow collectors, including myself, understand various changes a card can go through, and how some of those changes are accomplished. I would whole-heartedly endorse Kevin as an expert in detecting alterations of many sorts, and I very much appreciate all the education he has provided to myself and others over the years.

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Posted By: John

Marc,

First off I’m not saying Kevin is his own print shop I was more taking Henry’s lead and saying if in fact he did make them no need to be proud. Kevin may in fact be the Mother Teresa of the card world helping lost collectors find their way.

However I would be lying if I didn’t say that I was the least bit skeptical of Kevin.

Case in point Kevin has continually told everyone on here how easy these kinds of cards are to make. He has even gone as far to state one should never buy these kinds of printing errors because most are in fact fake. He has even roughly described first hand knowledge of how to make many of the fakes that get passed on us each and every day. I may be the only on here who finds it odd that the vast majority of cards Kevin has shown us are in fact the very types of cards he warns us about and has knowledge of how to create……..

Sorry if that raises my eyebrow a bit. Marc you may know him better and that’s great and if I’ve pegged Kevin all wrong my apologies. But for now I’m sticking with my original view on the topic until I see something that makes me view Kevin and his work differently.

Surely you can respect my view, though you may not agree with it.

Best Regards,

John

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Posted By: dennis

kevins policy seems to be "show" but don't "tell" how to detect the alterations.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Leon, yes I believe that card to be the back 1/2 of a 2 part Ramly, 2 part Ramly's were the first to be produced before the more common solid stock most are used. I have about 2 dozen of the 2 part cards, on most the edges which overlap are fairly easy to see with the naked eye. I have seen 1 2 part Ramly with the back adhered upside down. When you see a blank back Ramly that is not one of the 6 square frame fronts chances are nearly 100% it was a 2 part card on which the back was soaked off.

As to Kevin's cards posted, they are probably manufactured as the card stock is rough on the front and not what would normally be seen on any blank front or back card. Would fool very few advanced collectors. He repeatedly tells us the sky is falling, whenever someone produces a print error or other anomoly.

I for one would assert that there is not a glut of homemade errors in the market as he would lead you to believe. I, as many of the older collectors, have sifted through 1000's of cards and finding these errors is almost impossible, but occasionally in an old time collection one pops up.

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Posted By: robert a

I'm really not interested in seeing altered cards either.

Does anyone else have any cards that have blank fronts?

I believe Ted mentioned he had a T206 with a piedmont back that had a blank front.

Rob

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Posted By: mr. moses

invented sarcasm. I don't use it as I might confuse myself. I say I applaud him for at the very least enlightening the correct target audience about things that can and probably are being done to alter cards. Period. I wish Clint Eastwood could come around and clean things up. Not everyone wants or needs to share to the same degree that Barry or David R. or others do. The couple of threads I've seen about altered cards and some of Kevin's thoughts by example are interesting and important. If I wasn't so lazy I'd a start a new thread about this. It's probably already been done before so maybe I'm off the hook. I love my hobby. I want to explore the history. I want to protect myself. I want to be an educated consumer. I'll listen to just about anything anyone wants to share on the subject........

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Posted By: MVSNYC

after collecting T206's for nearly 20 years now, and having sorted thru 1,000's of cards, i can safely say that i have never seen a blank FRONT T206...and have only encountered merely a few blank backs.

just sharing my experience.

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Posted By: Kevin Sacuier

These are cards that would never be offered for sale at any price. Interestingly enough I had to turn down several offers just from this one post. Making money from altered cards is not what I do. True, I have never sold a doctored card.

<"If Kevin did create those I certainly wouldn’t applaud him…if anything I would avoid doing any kind of transaction with him at all costs.">


I'm not looking for applause, praise or anything. Just throwing these out to say again, that everyone in this hobby should always think twice before buying print errors, blanks (front or back), or other cards that are outside of the norm. Not saying the sky is falling each time, matter of fact there are some great printers scraps shown on another thread that are far from altered IMO and I'd love to own one.

John, think what you'd like but a transaction with me would all but guarantee the card would not be altered. Also, I'm no Mother Theresa and never claimed to be an expert.

<”I may be the only on here who finds it odd that the vast majority of cards Kevin has shown us are in fact the very types of cards he warns us about and has knowledge of how to create…”>

Well duh. I create them to warn others that they can be made. Be skeptical all you want, makes no difference to me. Just from the pictures above, collectors may now think first before they jump the gun and spend thousands of dollars on a blank front card if it was offered for sale.

As I've always said, I alter in every conceivable way, study the results and pass on (when I can) what I learn. Sometimes that may just be a scan, which I frequently get insulted, accused and criticized for but I don’t care at this point, I’ve become accustomed to it. It would be harmful to all if I started to go into more detail in some instances on a public forum. While I can't tell you what factory or printing press a card came from, I can usually tell if it's been altered in ways others have never even thought of.

For those who care, I do volunteer my services and give step by step instructions in person to a top grader so that he can also detect advanced doctored cards previously not known. One can never stop learning. I also get several cards a week in the mail and/or scans from some of the most knowledgeable collectors, who I deeply admire, requesting an opinion if a card has been altered. To this day I have never charged a penny.

fyi...there is no silhouette and the paper stock is only roughed up on a small portion because that card had paper loss to start. Most of the blank fronts are undetectable...whether you think so or not.

Sorry Mr. Moses I didn't get your email, please try again.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: John

“Just throwing these out to say again, that everyone in this hobby should always think twice before buying print errors, blanks (front or back), or other cards that are outside of the norm.”

"John, think what you'd like but a transaction with me would all but guarantee the card would not be altered."

Or at least not that I or anyone else could tell.....

“fyi...there is no silhouette and the paper stock is only roughed up on a small portion because that card had paper loss to start. Most of the blank fronts are undetectable...whether you think so or not.”

Are you saying that the above cards are doctored and not genuine???

If so why show them at all the question I believe was to show legit copies, and those cards off for grading now are they legit??

What’s your point in all this?

1.You want to wow us with your knowledge or allude that you have some amazing insight we fail to have all the while baiting us for an upcoming book?
2.You’re like one of those guys who tells people he’s a spy, when he really works at a Burger King?
3.You make and sell these creations, if not why bother making them….sort of like getting busted making counterfeit money in my basement only to tell the feds I was doing it so I could better spot counterfeit money??

Why must everything be a riddle with you Kevin, its like a freaking episode of Kung Fu…you may think you’re educating us but I for one get more confused with each post you make. I find myself wondering what exactly it is you’re trying to show/teach us….

P.S. Your above post in no way pointed to a bigger picture of beware or had any education purposes to it, it looked like you posted cards you own that were legit in response to the question raised in the post.

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Posted By: quan

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Posted By: John

Quan...LOL now that's a classic!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I have 1980s blank front uncut sheets, and I've seen numerous 1980s blank front singles. The singles are usually production errors, like blank backs and upside down backs. Many came from the wax packes. I remember pulling a 1979 Topps blank back from a pack.

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Posted By: Dylan

Wonkaticket i think your going a bit hard on the guy. I dont know anyone else on this board that has shown the ability to alter cards to the degree Kevin can. Why dont you just run him off the board so we can learn next to nothing from him? Because i guarantdamnT there are others out there just as (or more?) skilled then Kevin altering cards to make a profit. Maybe not obscure alterations like blank fronts, but certainly more subtle things. So why not let him showcase his alterations so atleast there out in the open? Full disclosure is what we all want in this hobby. And you seem to be upset that Kevin shows but doesnt tell you how step by step how to alter cards...well be careful what you ask for... informing graders in private and a bunch of baseball card collecting nuts on an open forum are two different things entirely. Maybe you guys are so quick to jump on his case because he knows how to alter cards and altering cards is BAD! And Wonka your comment stating hes not altering cards as long no one can detect it.. out of line. You dont know Kevin, why do you question his integrity? Because he alters his own cards in his personal collection? How does that have anything to do with me buying a good ole common T206 from the guy? According to you i better run like hell from anycard Kevin lists though right?

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I haven't displayed my T206 Piedmont back with a blank front since I cannot find it in all my "junk".
I acquired this many years ago and eventually I'll find it.....I know I haven't dis-carded it. I do not
throw away anything.

I believe the T-brand backs were printed on cardboard sheets prior to the fronts with possibly 24,
or 48 backs per sheet. Recently, an uncut sheet of Piedmont Cigarette packs was discovered; and,
this reinforces my theory. So, BLANK fronts should not be an unusual find regarding T204's or T206's.

But, I will tell you Robert....if and when I find this card, I am having 2nd thoughts on showing it.....
with the direction that thread is taking.

TED Z

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Posted By: mr. moses

amazing. I'm glad your skin is tough Kevin - and I for one appreciate the posts and the efforts. Amazing how narrow minded and miopic some can be.......... I don't think there are a lot of "error" cards in the market that are fakes. Price not high enough for them to justify the work and the cards themselves are scrutinzed more. I don't know kevin.. I think his posts are just SUGGESTIVE - a quick mental note for them what would move blindly forward without thought - a reminder from your mother that there's bad people out there trying to seperate you from your money. I don't recall he ever said the sky was falling; just that it's prudent to know that things aren't always what they seem..........

(edited just because I wanted to

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Posted By: leon

I appreciate Kevin coming on and sharing what he does. Thank you very much.....99% of us appreciate it. Could you tell a little more? Sure, but I will take what I can get. Please don't let the vocal minority piss you off and leave us. If I left everytime I got pissed because someone was doing something I didn't like I would never be on the board. There are many on here who say how bad Net54 is and how evil I am....yet they continue posting. No big deal as I know I try to help as much as I can and do the best I can with the board...You will never make everyone happy no matter what you do. As long as you do what you feel is right then that is what will continue to lead you...and prove satisfactory in your "gut"..... I live it everyday and continue the path.........

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Posted By: dstudeba

There are several collectors read this forum who are not "advanced" and appreciate the information that Kevin gives. I count myself amoung these. How else would we become "advanced" without educating ourselves? Until I saw Kevin's scans I would not have been wary of a blank front t206, now at least I have more information in hand if I were to consider buying one.

Personally I don't worry that Kevin is making these for sale. Anyone intelligent enough to make the alterations that he can make is intelligent enough to know not to advertise it in a public forum.

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Posted By: Scott B.

Ted,

I guess I am missing something here, you said...

"Recently, an uncut sheet of Piedmont Cigarette packs was discovered; and,
this reinforces my theory. So, BLANK fronts should not be an unusual find regarding T204's or T206's."

How does uncut sheet of Pied cigar packs related to blank fronts t206s???

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I like Kevin's posts. At the least, they make you think.

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Posted By: John

Dylan,

Give me a break anytime someone disagrees with anything it’s the old your running them off routine, please think of something more original next time.

This is a comment board I have every right to express my view as much as Kevin has the right to post his creations. But I’m not going to blow sunshine up anyone’s butt I will speak my mind and I think there a lot of questions Kevin has yet to answer that come to mind. Not to mention the very thing Kevin is commenting on and doing is controversial to say the least, if he can’t take a little heat perhaps he should stick to his chemicals and cards and shy away from posting his homemade beauties.

And as far as me commenting on passing cards off for real, I was just roughly re-stating what was said by Kevin.

“Most of the blank fronts are undetectable...whether you think so or not.”

I guess I’m the only one here who raises an eyebrow to anyone who says all his sales would be legit, yet in the next breath tells me how undetectable good fakes are. I must be the only one who scratches his head to a guy who warns us nonstop to stay away from T206 printing errors because they are so easily faked, then posts his Shappe and Nodgrass and other T206 printing flaws from his collection……

“Full disclosure is what we all want in this hobby. And you seem to be upset that Kevin shows but doesn’t tell you how step by step how to alter cards...well be careful what you ask for... informing graders in private and a bunch of baseball card collecting nuts on an open forum are two different things entirely.”

Dylan, I never implied I want to know how to make fakes did I? I would just like a bit more info on how to detect them vs. the little shots of Kevin’s creations with the occasional riddle or one sentence he gives. Hell SGC magazine teaches you how to detect trimmed cards step by step…couldn’t that info in the wrong hands teach a trimmer to trim cards in a way that would be undetectable, so why the top secret routine?

Read his post with the above images again Dylan what did you learn anything on how to detect fakes??? Where did he educate us in the below statement?? How did I or any of us learn anything on how to detect fake blank front cards??

“I have several more and real nice t206's, some t205's and several other brands both vintage to modern. Most are out at a grading company now. “
Kevin

So Dylan what did you learn from that???? What amazing amount of hobby insight was in that statement???

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Posted By: John

Leon,

“Please don't let the vocal minority piss you off and leave us.”

Wow had no idea how much in the vocal minority I was…..

“As long as you do what you feel is right then that is what will continue to lead you...and prove satisfactory in your "gut"..... I live it everyday and continue the path.........”

Huh…that’s what I’ve been doing by raising questions and speaking my mind..but it put me in the vocal minority what gives is the Luckey system flawed??

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The T206 T-brands and their associated cigarette packs were pre-printed at the same facility.
The inking and the style of these two are identical.
It would be impractical and more expensive, due to redundancy, for this not to be so.

Then, these sheets of pre-printed backs had the fronts printed on them. And, one proof of
this being so, are the numerous backs we've seen with "wet ink" front impressions on them.

Consider this process from a printing standpoint....the backs are a single color; therefore, you
print them 1st. The fronts are a combination of 4 to 6 different color inking passes; therefore,
the fronts are printed last.

Let's see if our resident printer, Joe D, can add to what I am saying.

TED Z

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Posted By: dstudeba

From Kevin's post I learned that it is possible to make blank fronted T cards. I did not know this before. I was therefore educated by his post.

Maybe his post added nothing for advanced collectors like John, but uneducated neophytes such as myself can glean a few pearls from it.

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Posted By: John

dstudeba,

That's exactly my point...so they can be made....how do I detect them and stay away from them. How do I tell a real one from a fake etc. That’s educating us and helping us, I really don’t think that’s too much to ask, the majority of what Kevin posts is very nebulous and that’s what I have a problem with.


Also in the original post he never mentions the above are fake…it was Scott B who said they were. So are we to assume every time Kevin shows a card it’s a fake or altered is it a kind of game??

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Posted By: leon

Just speaking my mind as you are ....that's all.....I believe you are in the minority with coming off the way you do about Kevin.....You don't seem to appreciate the bits of knowledge he passes on while the majority of us do....That's really not that difficult to understand is it?

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Posted By: John

I still fail to see how the above image educated us in any way; it was only after I asked if they were real or fake, Kevin clued us in a bit. Sorry if I find that an odd way to enlighten us all Leon.

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Posted By: leon

I don't disagree that it would be nice to come forward with more details. But the question then is.....Is what is being brought forward better than silence? Since it makes us question what we are doing then I say emphatically "yes". Just as you and I can have a debate now so can Kevin dispense what knowledge he wants to. I do agree that less sleuthing and more hard facts would be great.....But anything is better than nothing, imho....

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Posted By: robert a

I agree with John completely.

Robert

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Posted By: JimB

Kevin is a bit reckless in his accusations. There are legitimate print errors and blank backs that have all lost their value because of Kevin's less-than-skillful way of presenting this topic to the public. He may be an expert at altering cards, but he is far from being an expert at making his knowledge useful to others. He made accusations about a card of mine that, based on information I received from the previous owner, I believe to be false. But he irreparably tarnished the image of that card on a public forum without having any first-hand knowledge of the card. If he is attempting to be some sort of saint of the hobby, then please provide something other than fear. Thus far it seems he has only scared a lot of people and perhaps given the more devious some new ideas.
JimB

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Posted By: quan

ok from everything kevin's shown us anything's possible, i get it. i wonder if there's an e92 front with an m131 back somewhere...the bits and pieces of info is kinda irritating. i hope he's receptive to more in-depth questions in email if the occasion arises.

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Posted By: leon

ok...so maybe I am the minority? .....I am white, Jewish, and going bald....and left handed to boot....That has to be some sort of minority....

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Posted By: John

I’m white and bald too Leon…so no special treatment there. However you do have me on the left handed Jewish thing…but one could always convert. (to being Jewish that is I cant learn to write left handed now).

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Posted By: Paul S

Here's my double-blank front t206 Honus Wagner (or is it double back? I forget.) Pissed me off when I finally received it and saw that crease. Gratefully, the grading company has agreed to assign it a number grade.

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Posted By: leon

Looks trimmed at the bottom .....(jk)

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Posted By: dstudeba

"Thus far it seems he has only scared a lot of people and perhaps given the more devious some new ideas."

Well which is it? If people are too scared to buy blank front cards because of possible doctoring then the devious folks won't have a market for it will they? This is just a step away from trimming. If we didn't know about trimming we would go around happily buying cards as Copeland did. There is still a market for high grade T206s, but people do more research before buying them. Are some unaltered t206s deemed trimmed? Of course, but IMO it is better than a slew of trimmed cards being thought of as good.

While Kevin may not have a way with words, the images he provides are very interesting.

As for leon's minority, I am only white.

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Posted By: Cat

The only part of Leon's post that I don't understand is that part that states: "going bald."

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Posted By: Bob

That is not a front blank M116. I guess it's possible that the front surface was peeled off to make it so or the M116 back was added but that is not an M116 front without printing.
I guess Kevin was trying to make a point by showing how it could APPEAR to be so (?)

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Posted By: MVSNYC

OK, a few of kevin's posts have been informative to me (i.e. realizing that cards can be skinned and made to look like they are either blank back or blank front)...it actually helped me by putting up a red flag now, whenever i see blank back cards...so for opening my eyes to it, i thank you...

BUT, i do hear what John (Wonka) is saying here...Kevin's posts are usually cryptic & alittle condisending. i think they can be friendlier & more informative. i agree with John that Kevin posted the above blank fronts as authentic, there was no mention that they were altered by him, or any warning like "hey guys, be careful, people can make these frauds"...

Kevin, i agree that we have learned some things from your posts, just be clear and less vague when you explain your findings.

MS

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Posted By: barrysloate

White, balding, Jewish, and right-handed...and while I do feel Kevin's posts are informative, it would be nice if something more positive about the hobby came his way.

How about a thread discussing how to recognize a genuine printing error, or a blank back that is real. A more balanced approach would be appreciated.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In Base Ball and Tennis you have an advantage if you are a real Southpaw. Ask Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig,
Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Rod Laver, John McEnroe, Jimmy Connors.

Also, many of the greatest artists of all time were left-handed.

You got it made, buddy.

Regards from the T-Rex

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Posted By: Scott B.

Ted,

"one proof of this being so, are the numerous backs we've seen with "wet ink" front impressions on them."

There are "wet ink" back impressions on t206 front as well. Like those cards on this page http://www.t206museum.com/page/ra_ghost_front.html

I don't think we can draw any conclusions out of the Pied cigar pack uncut sheet.

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Posted By: Dylan

Perhaps if you approach Kevin in a private email instead of on a public forum his answers may a little less "cryptic" just an idea... I think the main point Kevins trying to get across is while there are factory misprints and printing scrap, etc. there is also the potential for some to be homeade examples too. The people that trim/alter cards and try and sell them as if they didnt, those are the real bad guys. If Kevin were one of those guys it would seem pretty self defeating for him to come on an open forum and discuss his abilities to do so wouldnt it wonka?

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Scott B.
Thanks for the explanation of how the early Ramly's were produced as I have a Ramly that came apart when I was putting it into a card saver. I now have a blank front and a blank back Ramly for the price of one. Leon, it's obvious if this is what you have because the card is much thinner than a regular card.