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  #1  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:17 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Default Roberto Clemente Signed Autographed Baseball Global Authentics

Here's an interesting item I found on Ebay. The auction has been removed, but I did save photographs from the auction.

The item is a Roberto Clemente autographed baseball. When I first opened it, I knew the Clemente autograph wasn't authentic, but something else caught my eye.

First, the photograph of the signed baseball.

Looks similar to the Clemente crap that is listed by Coach's Corner every month, but this one is authenticated by Global Authentics (Steve Sipe). Yes, Steve Sipe of Global Authentics authenticated this Roberto Clemente autograph. But it doesn't end at the autograph.

cris-1.jpg

As I scanned the photographs of the baseball, I noticed that someone had removed some markings underneath the Spalding label.

cris-3.JPG

I then contacted Brandon, our resident baseball expert, who identified the baseball as a 1974-1976 Feeney NL baseball. Below is what the baseball (without the markings removed) should look like. The photograph below was provided to me by Brandon.

brandon-feeney.jpg

Below are photographs of the COA and LOA of the baseball authenticated by Global Authentics. The LOA is signed by Steve Sipe and Bob Gryder.

cris-4.JPG

cris-5.JPG

Below is a photograph of the item description.

cris-6.jpg

Way to go Steve Sipe and Bob Gryder of Global Authentics. Even though I knew the Clemente autograph wasn't authentic when I first scanned the signature, but the fact that this particular baseball was produced between 1974 and 1976 proves that Mr. Clemente could not have signed that baseball. Roberto Clemente passed away December 31, 1972.

I would like to thank Brandon for his expertise in dating this baseball. A link to his website is below.

http://www.historyofthebaseball.com/

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-01-2012 at 06:38 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:37 PM
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Wow fraudsters, at least do your homework outside of forging a signature lol
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  #3  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:42 PM
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Why do their homework? That would only mean that items would get turned down.
That would only mean they get less business.
Shaky authentications = $$$
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:14 PM
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the pen pressure is too dark and even for clemente, it should be faster with light areas, etc.
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  #5  
Old 05-01-2012, 04:38 PM
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They (the forger) did do their homework insofar as they knew to try and obscure certain markings on the ball with the scuffing. They were just too lazy to source a proper ball for their forgery. They should have just saved this ball until they had practiced up on their Thurman Munson signature
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  #6  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:00 PM
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No need to use an old NL ball for Thurman Munson forgeries, there are plenty of 1978 WS balls still around.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 05-01-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:32 PM
travrosty travrosty is offline
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less than a month ago and has the notation that the curator of some museum liked it, like the curators of museums know autographs. LOL, that always gets me.

STAT likes to use the babe ruth museum on their resume, even though it was news to the museum itself. maybe they ran the gift shop.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:49 PM
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The first time I heard of STAT was from my friends boss, who tried to convice me that they had worked at the Babe Ruth Museum. The first thing I asked him was what they had done there...maybe they were the janitors? That's when I saw his wheels start spinning!
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  #9  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:42 PM
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Here are the two different Feeney baseballs that Spalding made. Besides the lack of "Sewn In Haiti" on the '70-'73 model, there is a slight design, and size difference.
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File Type: jpg NL_1974_1976_FEENEY.jpg (33.6 KB, 217 views)
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  #10  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:49 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Brandon, thank you very much for that explanation and for lending your expertise to this thread.
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  #11  
Old 05-02-2012, 07:20 AM
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Default Roberto Clemente Signed Baseball Global Authentics

From the Global Authentics cert check database.
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File Type: jpg cris-11.jpg (74.5 KB, 124 views)

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-02-2012 at 07:24 AM.
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2012, 07:59 AM
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Chris or Brandon. Fascinating thread, and obviously stuff was removed below the ball logo. But, how do you know its not the 1970-3 one on left? Unless I can't see, how would you know it wasn't that one, of the two Feeney examples?

I also don't like the sig anyways, but what am I missing?
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:08 AM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Scott, I knew the autograph was not authentic, but when I noticed the abrasions under the Spalding label my first thought was "Did someone remove some markings on the ball to hide something?" That's when I sent photographs of the baseball to Brandon. I do believe that Brandon's comment explains it in a nutshell.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:12 AM
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I just see the 2 ball size variations, and am asking how come the ball in question couldn't be the type that does not have the Made in Haiti, but is the earlier version on left of his two photos.

Regardless, the idea of Just removing something there casts potential suspicion at the very least.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost View Post
I just see the 2 ball size variations, and am asking how come the ball in question couldn't be the type that does not have the Made in Haiti, but is the earlier version on left of his two photos.

Regardless, the idea of Just removing something there casts potential suspicion at the very least.
Edit- The actual "ball" on the stamp is bigger on the newer ball and the writing is a tad different, i see now.

Last edited by Bilko G; 05-02-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:37 AM
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Its tough tho. wow..My eyes are bad I guess, but yes, the writing is def a bit different
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost View Post
Its tough tho. wow..My eyes are bad I guess, but yes, the writing is def a bit different
it is tough, i couldn't see the difference at first either. I thought he was saying the size of the actual baseball was a tad bit bigger, haha.
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  #18  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:48 AM
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The thing is, is if Chris can catch the ball as a forgery without even having to see the autograph, just by dating the ball, why can't the so-called experts do this as well??

My advice to the "experts" is, don't even bother authenticating the autograph until you do research on the actual ball (or item) and make sure the ball is from the right time frame for an authentic autograph to be even able to exist on it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilko G View Post
The thing is, is if Chris can catch the ball as a forgery without even having to see the autograph, just by dating the ball, why can't the so-called experts do this as well??

My advice to the "experts" is, don't even bother authenticating the autograph until you do research on the actual ball (or item) and make sure the ball is from the right time frame for an authentic autograph to be even able to exist on it.
You got that right. That should be the first step. The Ball itself has to be from the RIGHT period for the signer. If not, no point in even going further.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost View Post
You got that right. That should be the first step. The Ball itself has to be from the RIGHT period for the signer. If not, no point in even going further.
That should always be the first step. Why bother with any autograph analysis if it's on an item that couldn't have been signed in the players lifetime. That's like Autograph 101.
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  #21  
Old 05-02-2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost View Post
Its tough tho. wow..My eyes are bad I guess, but yes, the writing is def a bit different
The stitching on the "printed balls" is different as well.... especially at the top-left and lower-right. This forgery is clearly the later version.

Last edited by perezfan; 05-02-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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  #22  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:26 PM
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Someone tried to register this morning and said they had info on this ball and the dating of it...supposedly refuting what is said here. They didn't give the required info and when I emailed them, their email address wasn't registered and it bounced back. It isn't impossible to slime into our forum but I have gotten a sixth sense since moderating, concerning registrations. I try to make it difficult for the scammers or fraudsters. Now, if they want to register with all of the correct info, and then they and I have a long chat, they are more than welcome here to defend themselves. They won't be anonymous if I can help it though.
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Last edited by Leon; 05-02-2012 at 12:27 PM. Reason: typo
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  #23  
Old 05-02-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Someone tried to register this morning and said they had info on this ball and the dating of it...supposedly refuting what is said here. They didn't give the required info and when I emailed them, their email address wasn't registered and it bounced back. It isn't impossible to slime into our forum but I have gotten a sixth sense since moderating, concerning registrations. I try to make it difficult for the scammers or fraudsters. Now, if they want to register with all of the correct info, and then they and I have a long chat, they are more than welcome here to defend themselves. They won't be anonymous if I can help it though.
Funny how I have been in an e mail exchange with one of the prime people who is involved, but not participating, in this debate. He also told me a story about this ball and dating, etc. Considering that the supposed adult who wrote to me told me that Chris lived with his mother and was a drunk (I was actually wondering if this person who wrote to me was a 14 yr old in junior high school because that was the last time I heard people talk like that) and that Brandon explained this ball to us already and the e mail was self serving I did not give it a lot of credence.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 05-02-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:32 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Default Roberto Clemente Steve Sipe Bob Gryder

Maybe Sipe can explain to us why he and Gryder authenticated the Roberto Clemente signature on that baseball.

Whoever penned that Roberto Clemente spent approximately thirty-minutes penning it. Coach's Corner variety Clemente.

The moment I saw that auction on Ebay and clicked on the photograph of the Clemente signature on that baseball, I knew immediately it wasn't authentic, but somehow, under close examination by you and Gryder, the both of you determined it was authentic. Seriously?

cris-2.jpg

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-02-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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  #25  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost View Post
Chris or Brandon. Fascinating thread, and obviously stuff was removed below the ball logo. But, how do you know its not the 1970-3 one on left? Unless I can't see, how would you know it wasn't that one, of the two Feeney examples?

I also don't like the sig anyways, but what am I missing?
Okay a couple things, you guys really need to look at the two baseballs, the logo on the left baseball (70-73) is smaller, the stitching design is different, the "Cushioned Cork Center" writing is smaller, a different font, and tighter to the Splading circle. The "Reg in US Pat Off" doesn't have a period after it. If you REALLY look you should see the difference. There's no way the forged ball is the early model ball. If you had the two in hand you would definitely see a difference. If not, I guess that's why I'm writing the book and you're not lol

As for the authenticators not doing their research in the balls themselves, I think it's just because there was never any reference to do so, in reality I've recently just popped up as the guy to go to, and once my book is out I'm sure all of them will have a copy as a reference guide. Maybe I need to get my name out there more to these guys and start making a buck or two helping them.
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File Type: jpg NL_1974_1976_FEENEY.jpg (33.6 KB, 102 views)
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Last edited by BrandonG; 05-02-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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  #26  
Old 05-02-2012, 02:44 PM
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Beautifully written, Brandon.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere View Post
Maybe Sipe can explain to us why he and Gryder authenticated the Roberto Clemente signature on that baseball.

Whoever penned that Roberto Clemente spent approximately thirty-minutes penning it. Coach's Corner variety Clemente.

The moment I saw that auction on Ebay and clicked on the photograph of the Clemente signature on that baseball, I knew immediately it wasn't authentic, but somehow, under close examination by you and Gryder, the both of you determined it was authentic. Seriously?

Attachment 62507
The signature on that ball looks like it was sooooo slowly written. It looks like the writer squeezed the pen and pressed it hard against the ball, agonizingly drawing each letter. It is just awful.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2012, 04:52 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Below is a private message I received from figuerj4. Figuerj4 joined Net54 this morning but has not been confirmed.

Hey you are very wrong with your comment in this forums... This ball was made in Haiti by 1970's.
Before you make any comment you need to be sure that you know. Global and JSA is the best 3rd party authentication companies.
PSA is very poor.

Give me your email and I will sent you the ball details.

Regards,
Joel


Makes me wonder if figuerj4 (Joel) is Steve Sipe.

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-02-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2012, 07:04 PM
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there is no way that just by coincidence the markings that can best identify the year of the balls making are just accidentally and by happenstance the ones that have been erased.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:08 PM
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Here's the same ball with ACE certification, a 350 dollar ball becomes a 20,000 dollar ball?

http://www.icollector.com/ROBERTO-CL...-COA_i11978349


other signed balls sold in this "auction" include a jackie robinson for 325 dollars

http://www.icollector.com/JACKIE-ROB...-COA_i11978234



but that one went more than the christy mathewson signed ball that sold for 250 dollars, boy that guy got a good deal!

http://www.icollector.com/CHRISTY-MA...-COA_i11978240



and a chief bender for 170 dollars

http://www.icollector.com/CHIEF-BEND...-COA_i11978326


and if you look at all the completed pioneer premiere auctions out of portland its all the same guys certing the same kind of stuff for rock bottom prices.

Last edited by travrosty; 05-02-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:29 PM
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ACE should start to run some ads showing off the prices realized that their garbage gets.
Those prices are even lower than CC prices.
AMAZINGLY bad sh--.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
ACE should start to run some ads showing off the prices realized that their garbage gets.
Those prices are even lower than CC prices.
AMAZINGLY bad sh--.
Justin must be real proud of himself now that he's mentioned in the same circles as Chris Morales, Ted Taylor, Drew Max, and Coach's Corner. And in my opinion, we can add Global Authentics to that circle.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:58 PM
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Aren't these the exact same baseballs? The first one is the Global Authentics certed Clemente and the second one is the one that Travis posted a link to that is certed by ACE (Justin Priddy).

cris-2.jpg

cris-12.jpg

cris-13.jpg

cris-14.jpg

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-02-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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  #34  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:08 PM
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yep, they are the same, it went through that auction with an ace cert, then got a GA cert and showed up on ebay. Look at the date on the certs. since GA is an ebay approved authenticator, the buyer must have took a chance at getting a GA cert after they bought it from that auction house so they could list it on ebay and got one from GA. They felt a GA cert was an upgrade from an ACE cert in the eyes of collectors.

Last edited by travrosty; 05-02-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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  #35  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:09 PM
thetruthisoutthere thetruthisoutthere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty View Post
yep, they are the same, it went through that auction with an ace cert, then got a GA cert and showed up on ebay. Look at the date on the certs. since GA is an ebay approved authenticator, the buyer must have took a chance at getting a GA cert so they could list it on ebay and got one.
Agreed.
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  #36  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:18 PM
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cert swapping. hope the guy didn't have a back story about uncle bob getting it signed in person, we know that is b.s. how did the ebay seller have all this information about the ball and it being correct if he just had it for a couple of months. when did the clemente museum opine on the ball?

Did this ebay seller really think he got a genuine clemente signed baseball for 350 bucks? c'mon.

Last edited by travrosty; 05-02-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:25 PM
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I'd like to see that letter from the curator of the museum. I still have the seller's Ebay ID.

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-02-2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:46 PM
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yep, me too.

curators of museums are not autograph experts.

there would probably be no more impressive letter than from the curator of the baseball hall of fame in cooperstown accompanying an old hof autographed baseball, but the curator isn't an expert in those old signatures. he runs the museum.

I think they should have known better than to have a letter from the clemente museum have anything to do with their cert. they list the curators letter on the GA cert. that's inappropriate as it has nothing to do with the inspection that GA should have independently given the ball. Seems like he was trying to defend or bolster his decision by mentioning the museum.

Last edited by travrosty; 05-02-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:54 PM
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Wow just a bunch of fraud and scamming going on. Like seriously, who in there right mind can honestly think they can buy an A+ example of a Clemente auto ball for $350?

Hell, for a little over a grand you can get signed balls from Clemente, Mathewson, Jackie Robinson and Chief Bender. Amazing!!!
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:56 PM
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in all likelihood most of the winning bidders on auctions like these have a good idea on what they are bidding on and receiving.

Last edited by travrosty; 05-02-2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty View Post
in all likelihood most of the winning bidders on auctions like these have a good idea on what they are bidding on and receiving.

oh i totally agree. I would have to imagine that a good chunk of the people buying this crap are looking to buy in cheap and flipping for a large profit to the uneducated and naive,
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:45 PM
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The guy who bought it for $350 had to know that the ACE cert is barred by ebay. That is why he went to Global.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bilko G View Post
Wow just a bunch of fraud and scamming going on. Like seriously, who in there right mind can honestly think they can buy an A+ example of a Clemente auto ball for $350?

Hell, for a little over a grand you can get signed balls from Clemente, Mathewson, Jackie Robinson and Chief Bender. Amazing!!!
This is one big Ponzi scheme. Not quite Bernie Madoff levels but certainly at the level of the Tulip Mania in The Netherlands in the 17th Century.
One item can pass through the hands of half a dozen scammers, each marking it up, before a know nothing person winds up with it at a high price, thinking it has a COA, how could it be bad? And I can send little Julie to college if I hold it for 12 more years.
The roster of pathetic criminals in this business just grows every day. What is scary is that the outlets they avail themselves of is also growing every day. The auction site pointed out by Travis was news to me. These type places seem to be springing up like weeds every day.
They also had a Ruth baseball box signed, a Harry Heilmann ss ball, a Lou Gehrig signed twice ledger page, all selling for a few hundred dollars. All with the usual cast of COA's.
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Last edited by RichardSimon; 05-03-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:19 PM
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I just received an e mail from Steve @ Global and was told that the Clemente ball was taken out of their system, despite the fact that I had been told all those stories about museum curators, a big collector in Puerto Rico who had the ball and that Chris wishes he had that kind of collection, etc.
I told Global that we will be watching them.
And btw - they don't think much of Net54 people.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
And btw - they don't think much of Net54 people.

LOL....I hold no hard feelings towards them . I certainly appreciate ya'll keeping an eye on things though...probably a tad bit more than they do. They really should come over to the bright side instead of where they are mired.
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardSimon View Post
I just received an e mail from Steve @ Global and was told that the Clemente ball was taken out of their system, despite the fact that I had been told all those stories about museum curators, a big collector in Puerto Rico who had the ball and that Chris wishes he had that kind of collection, etc.
I told Global that we will be watching them.
And btw - they don't think much of Net54 people.
"Taken out of the system." Really? That ball was removed by Ebay and it will be sold to someone else on another platform other than Ebay.

Last edited by thetruthisoutthere; 05-03-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 05-03-2012, 02:34 PM
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I also heard that Sipe didn't like my article about the Global Authentics certed Derek Jeter autographed bats, jersey and baseballs that I exposed recently.

Those were recently removed by Ebay also and I am certain they will be sold elsewhere, but they weren't removed from the system.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere View Post
"Taken out of the system." Really? That ball was removed by Ebay and it will be sold to someone else on another platform other than Ebay.
When Sipe wrote that the Clemente ball "was taken out of the system" I think he meant that it was removed from their Global Authentics Cert Check Database. The number on the cert GV 666192 is no longer in the GA database.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:13 PM
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Clemente autographs signed in the year 2012 have all been removed from the system.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
LOL....I hold no hard feelings towards them . I certainly appreciate ya'll keeping an eye on things though...probably a tad bit more than they do. They really should come over to the bright side instead of where they are mired.
Those who are mired in the muck rarely if ever come over to the bright side.
They feel much more comfortable in the muck and mire.
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