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  #1  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:41 PM
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Default Interesting email from REA

Posted By: Brendan

I'm sure many of you received this email from REA. The issue of card doctoring is nothing new, but I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are on what REA said? Reprinted below:

'In recent weeks we have received a number of consignments of graded cards that has motivated us to adopt a formal policy regarding altered professionally graded cards that we have not previously seen a need to articulate. The altering of cards is so widespread, and “card doctors” so brazen, that REA has actually been receiving cards submitted for auction to us that are the very same cards that have been sold by REA previously – in some cases just months earlier – and which, since purchase, have been significantly altered, reholdered, and now grade higher according to the grading label. In some cases a given card has changed hands and the new consignor was not even aware it was a seriously altered card. It is our policy that when we are aware of such a problem, and we ARE looking, we will be happy to auction the card in question - but insist on providing all information describing the alterations which have occurred to the card of which we are certain. So far, the potential consignors of such cards have elected to have these cards returned rather than have a proper description provided by REA. Last week we returned a $10,000 card. The consignor couldn’t believe it was the same card that we had just sold (in a lower grade and looking quite different) in a previous auction. Only after being provided with images of the card as it appeared when we previously sold it was the consignor finally convinced.

We’re not guessing here. We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic, it is particularly disturbing that some of the most sophisticated “work” on cards (including the previously mentioned $10,000 card) has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards. We have to ask ourselves “What is going on here?” Turning a blind eye to this issue, in our opinion, has far greater and more significant negative potential consequences than our calling attention to it and promoting discussion. We all know that there is a subjectivity to grading and that sometimes there is an honest difference of opinion regarding a grade, or sometimes even an honest mistake. We’re not talking about honest mistakes here. Active and sophisticated collectors, dealers, and auction houses know that this is a problem. They just don’t talk about it, except among themselves. In the end, the collector loses. We want to be clear that we think the major grading services do a valiant job and we can’t imagine what the landscape of the marketplace would look like without them. That doesn’t mean there are no problems. At the end of the day, we have this advice: “Buy the card, not the holder.”'

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  #2  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:44 PM
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Default Interesting email from REA

Posted By: Steve Dawson

That's why I don't collect vintage cards in the "super grades". I'm perfectly happy with my PSA 4's and below


Steve

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  #3  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:49 PM
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Posted By: JK

In the email, REA states that we (collectors, dealers, etc) should not be turning a blind eye to this. The email discusses a card that was previously sold by REA, doctored, sold again, and then consigned by a new owner (who was then informed that the card had been doctored). It seems that the card doctor in such cases can be determined with reasonable certainty by simply tracing the sales. My question then is why, if we are not to turn a blind eye, are names not being named?

This is not intended as a criticism of REA - they have already done more than most auction houses and dealers would have done. I just think we can and should go further.

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  #4  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:50 PM
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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I like REA even more now.

Wow!

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  #5  
Old 10-27-2006, 06:59 PM
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Posted By: Paul

I can understand for a variety of reasons (most of them legal) why REA would not want to name names. And I do appreciate how far they have already gone to publicize this problem. But I hope they go one step further and describe generically the types of problems they have seen in re-holdered cards. I would like to know, for example, if we are just talking about a dog-eared corner that has been folded back into its original position, or if we are talking about the addition of ink and other very serious alternations. Others may feel it doesn't matter - an alteration is an alteration. But I think many of us would like to know how far this has really gone.

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  #6  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:04 PM
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Posted By: Joann

First, I am a big, big fan of REA and how they conduct themselves and their auctions.

But when I read the email, I was torn. I admired them for openly discussing the elephant in the room that most auction houses avoid like nobody's business. But my first reaction was whether or not the email was a pile-on after the two long threads here about the Mastro Broadleaf 460 deal about a month ago.

Probably I'm just too cynical. Still a big big REA fan, but that thought did cross my mind.

Joann

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  #7  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:07 PM
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Posted By: ScottIngold

"has actually been executed by employees of auction houses that also deal in cards."

That is really scary. Which auction house's? Would be my ?

Maesto , Mile high , Lelands ??????

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  #8  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:12 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Pretty clear who he is referring to here.

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  #9  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:14 PM
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Posted By: T E

or provide links to visual info or whatever. Grading companies involved? Auction houses?

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  #10  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:20 PM
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Posted By: ScottIngold

Jim,

Please tell.... I for one am not sure. But i would assume Maestro.

But that is just a guess based on them being the largest and the recent card that was talked about.

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  #11  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:21 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Not grading companies--auction houses--or should I say one auction house in particular.

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  #12  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:23 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

You can e-mail me--do not want to name names on a public board.

Jim

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  #13  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:53 PM
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Posted By: JK

What I would like to see at a minimum (if they arent going to name names) is the scans of the cards in question.

As for legal reasons, truth is an absolute defense.

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  #14  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:09 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Truth may be a defense, but proving the truth may not be so easy.

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  #15  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:15 PM
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Posted By: John Kalafarski

I wonder who is the grading company in league with the auction house? I would bet that it is not SGC and most likely not PSA (although I have recently spied a PSA card that was obviously trimmed in a recent auction).

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  #16  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:27 PM
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Posted By: JK

where did it say anything about a grading company dealing in altered cards?

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  #17  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:30 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

You misread what he said--the grading companies are the good guys--(valiant)

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  #18  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:33 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

Mastro has had items 'cleaned' for their auctions, there's no secret about that.
Remember the 1893 Willie Keeler cabinet?

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  #19  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:41 PM
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Posted By: David Smith

Thanks REA for taking a first step in addressing this problem!!

Now, to help everyone out, you should add a section to your home page that shows the before and after pictures of the altered card/s and what the alteration/s were. Then, you should send this information to the other auction houses immediately so that they are aware of this card/s. That way, everyone will have a better idea of which auction houses are shady and which ones are legit.

Next, names of consignors should be kept to see who, on a consistent basis, is submitting these card/s to be sold and that list should be passed around. If a pattern develops, then all of this info should be turned over to the FBI and some heads should roll, people be jailed and lawsuits be filed.

But then again, maybe not, because some of the attorneys on this board might make more money and I would have an even lesser chance of adding cards to my collection. UGGH. Maybe I should go back to school and become a lawyer...


David

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  #20  
Old 10-27-2006, 08:45 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Not many of my--I think it was 78--lots in the last REA auction contained doctored cards, but I was AMAZED at the ones that were! (any doctored cards that were sold were clearly marked as such). I think they were all sold in groups of doctored cards, not mixed in with un-doctored ones. Two things astonished me:

1) the lack of focus on bigh grade cards among the doctorers. If they think you will want it, they will doctor it!

2) the price that clearly marked doctored cards that were hard to come by (19th century, for instance) brought. Both the ones I knew when I got them were doctored (N300 Ewing), and ones that
floored me (N300 Glasscock--my favorite N300--it was skinned and rebacked). They cheerfully sold, and I cheerfully collecterd money for 19th century cards with the emtire ad panel cut off ther bottom--well, I had wanted them, hadn't I?

REA did NOT sell all of my doctored cards. More modern ones with painted corners, or trimmed (I remember one 1935 Goudy, with HOFers on it) were returned to me.

ALL fake asutographs (they are VERY conservative about this--all THREE of their autograph experts have to agree that the autograph is real, or back it goes) were returned. I was a little surprised at how many were real--just about half.

REA IS SUPER! Now if I only had my cards back...

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  #21  
Old 10-27-2006, 09:20 PM
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Posted By: leon

Timing on this email is nice? Coincidence?

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  #22  
Old 10-27-2006, 09:24 PM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

I am more than a little tired of the innuendo and hidden accusations. If REA is going to state for a fact that so and so card is altered, post the images here, post the cert #'s here. If REA claims that employees of an auctioneer are altering cards, post the names and show us the cards. If the accusations are true and can be backed up, it is high time that everyone sounded off like they had a pair.

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  #23  
Old 10-27-2006, 10:25 PM
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Posted By: JK

I agree completely.

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  #24  
Old 10-27-2006, 10:57 PM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Couldn't this just be REA's way of acknowledging receipt of the e-mail that was apparently circulated a week ago about Charlie's auction?

I know that Charlie explained his situation and defended himself well...

but isn't it possible that the same consignor who might have sent doctored cards into Charlie's auction also sent them into REA?

I think Charlie is 100% innocent, just like REA...

but I am sure that whoever circulated that e-mail sent a copy to REA, which would almost FORCE them to respond.

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  #25  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:11 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Once you have the names which are named and the cards which are changed, then what?

String 'em up, I say. Hang them now. No, turn them over to the FBI.

But wait, card doctoring is not against the law, heck it isn't even immoral. Art restoration is a noble profession. So what if we name them? Then what?

Their client list could be proprietary or protected for other reasons. Then what?

Go ahead REA heed our name the names demand - it is well thought out.


Edited again because tonight it took me three tries to correctly spell proprietary.

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  #26  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:15 PM
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Posted By: JK

Gil,

It is illegal if the "restored" card is passed off as an original unaltered card. Its called fraud.

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  #27  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:17 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Is it ever fraudulent to sell a graded card?

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  #28  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:32 PM
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Posted By: JK

If someone has doctored a card with the intent to deceive a grading company and then sell the doctored but graded card - yes, absolutely. The fact that a card doctor is able to slip a card past a grading company doesnt "cleanse" the fraudulent act.

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  #29  
Old 10-27-2006, 11:51 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well JK, we are not going to try this hypothetical case in this thread. But it would be interesting, I think. However, those with a far greater understanding of the subject than I have may consider various arguements, and that is my intent here.

Specifically to take our thought process one more rung on the ladder. Hopefully upward. Because the top end cards in our hobby are important to the overall wellbeing of our hobby; and any momentary loss in credibility there should be dealt with, as we are.

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  #30  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:28 AM
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Posted By: edacra

The issue of fraud is more in line with laws concerning false advertising. It's hard to prove malice or that the sale was intentional, rather then just an error. Our standards are self governed. There are paper collectibles, such as movie posters, where restoration is considered acceptable though it will effect price.

If there is doubt, they shouldn't sell it due to their liability not to mention just the "sanctity" of the hobby. If people get ripped off they will sour on the trade and take their business elsewhere. That's really what happened in the early 90's with the vintage market. While the market was flooded with new product anda lot of junk, it was more about the proliferation of bad business that effected the vintage market.

I see this as a bit of a publicity stunt, and for my money, it impresses me a lot more then any honus wagner sale.

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  #31  
Old 10-28-2006, 01:03 AM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

If the restoration significantly effects the value and is known to the seller, it is illegal
to not disclose it to the buyer. By illegal, I don't mean you will be rooming in
Sing Sing for selling a 1987 Topps Barry Bonds you know is trimmed.

My impression of Rob Lifson has always been positive, and he's always come across
as extremely honest to me, so I take the letter at face value. There's little doubt
that he knows as much or more than anyone about baseball cards, so it would be a
mistake for collectors to idly dismiss what he has to say about restoration.

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  #32  
Old 10-28-2006, 01:24 AM
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Posted By: Lee Behrens

REA did not bring this email to the board, a contributor did. I for one applaud them, they seem to be attempting to run the most effecient clean auction house and what do they get for some of there efforts? Skeptism.

I also would like to see the before and afters and the names of the buyers of these doctored.

The other think I wonder is why people are questioning the timing of the announcement. We all know Rob Lifson reads this board as well as others that run or work at auction houses. It is a fresh issue and why not address it if you have evidence and proof of cards be doctored and letting your customers know that if you have proof of doctoring you will not allow the item into your auctions without proper notation.

Like I said earlier I applaud REA for this move there is no reason the other auction houses can not do the same.

Lee

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  #33  
Old 10-28-2006, 06:23 AM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

If someone genuinely wants to make a difference, it is going to take more than vague and imprecise allegations against nameless persons and cliches such as "buy the card not the holder." Indeed, absent more precision, the author could be saying nothing more than in his opinion someone did something to a card that he considers alteration but the vast majority of us would not. See the earlier thread re another upcoming auction, which clearly underscored this issue. Well-intentioned or not, especially in light of the timing, it gives the appearance of self-promotion (you can trust my cards but not others). Like Adam and others, I too would like to know more specifics, but the skeptic in me thinks they will not be forthcoming.

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  #34  
Old 10-28-2006, 07:59 AM
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Posted By: JK

That's the problem with people in this hobby who are "in the know" - they all claim to know who is doctoring cards but refuse to name names - so it leaves those of us who are less informed twisting in the wind and hoping that the card we just spent good money on wasnt doctored.

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  #35  
Old 10-28-2006, 08:00 AM
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Posted By: Dylan

It would be cool if someone could keep a database of suspect cards that have been seen moving from holder to holder. It would be real educational actually to be able to study these cards. For one thing to be able to tell just what these card doctors are up to, and also to see keep the grading companies in check.

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  #36  
Old 10-28-2006, 09:08 AM
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Posted By: Josh Adams

JK,
I agree with you 100%. My question is, and always has been, why the reluctance by those who claim to "know" who doctors cards. If these people were really interested in the "well being of the hobby," perhaps the best thing to do is name names?

And the database is a good idea too.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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  #37  
Old 10-28-2006, 09:58 AM
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Posted By: Robert Lifson

For those who are unhappy that REA is not naming names, there are legal issues that make this not desirable. We are not interested in lawsuits, and are operating in what we think is the most intelligent manner all things considered. If anyone has the interest and financial ability to indemnify REA, REA employees, and me personally from legal action and related legal expenses, we would be happy to name names. We are not interested in being embroiled in legal battles and would prefer to try to continue to try to make a difference in the best way that we think we can. The primary audience for the recent email was not this board, which includes many of the most knowledgeable and active of all collectors. There are thousands of less knowledgeable and active collectors that are on our mailing list who do not read the net54 board.

With reference to Leon’s suggestion that this email was somehow directed at Mastronet because of its timing: Mastronet has auctions up and running or closing over 100 days of the year. We did not reference when the Mastronet auction was closing in deciding to send out this email and only realized it closed last night from this board. It would not have made any difference with reference to our timing, which was related to the receipt of two problematic packages of potential consignments on the very same day: that day being yesterday. In fact, the email specifically references that the altered cards being discussed have been received here in recent weeks. The fact that Mastronet’s catalog has been up online and out for at least that long and had to go press even earlier obviously precludes these very cards from even possibly being in their recent sale. We have been sending out emails for years. Statistically it is not surprising that we would someday send out an email on the very day of another auction’s close. This suggestion that this was an attack on Mastronet and not an attempt to educate the public is extremely not well founded.

We will be sending images of a card (before and after) that was recently received for auction to a board member who knows how to post images. This is not the card that was referenced by our recent email but because we have both before and after scans of it, at least it can provide some tangible evidence for those that do not believe there is a problem with previously sold cards being doctored and then these very same cards being resubmitted for auction. Since its sale by REA from an original owner collection in April 2006, this particular card has been reholdered three times to the best of our knowledge. It is our understanding that it is currently in a PSA holder. The card has gone from a PSA1 MK (as when sold by REA) to an SGC 1.5 to a GAI 3 VG to a PSA 2 GD (with no qualifier). The “after” scan does not do the substantial work that has been done on this card justice, as having the card in hand provides much greater detail and it looks so much better it is almost hard to believe it is the same card. The card has lost its well-deserved “MK” qualifier and gone up grades in appearance due to the relayering and flattening of the paper where the card has creases. There may have been other things done to the card, we no longer have it in hand. The potential consignor of this card had no idea that anything was done to it. In this case he purchased it directly from the buyer at REA. This card has been returned to the consignor per his request.

Lastly, the portion of the email that was posted was only part of the email. The first and third topics as well as the introduction and close were not posted here, and they provide a larger context of the communication. We are trying to make a difference. The fact that we are not communicating everything that we are doing to make a difference does not mean that we are doing anything else. This will be our only post regarding this topic.


Sincerely,

Robert Lifson
President
Robert Edward Auctions LLC
www.RobertEdwardAuctions.com

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  #38  
Old 10-28-2006, 10:05 AM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Well, clearly Rob knows who doctored that one particular card...

since it was sold by REA to the "doctor" and then purchased by the recent consignor from that very same "doctor."

If the recent REA consignor truly is innocent... then the "doctor" is pretty easily identifiable.

Not by us, but by Rob.

Unless... someone on this board knows who purchased the card from REA the first time... since that someone is apparently the "doctor."

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  #39  
Old 10-28-2006, 10:21 AM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Im back with "then what"
Doctoring is not a new subject for us. Our archives supplemented by articles in publications such as VCBC and others discuss the capabilities and prevalence of this tactic.
My interpretation of this is:

Any card can built from raw materials which will pass grading company scrutiny. Will it pass REA inspection and analysis? I do not know. Will it pass my expertise = yes. Will it pass yours = I think so (with perhaps very few exceptions).

Now what? And don't tell me that naming names is any more than a rubbernecking slow down.

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  #40  
Old 10-28-2006, 11:38 AM
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Posted By: cmoking

I received the scans of the 1933 Goudey Lajoie from Rob Lifson. I am posting it here per his request.

PSA 1MK becomes a GAI 3


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  #41  
Old 10-28-2006, 11:41 AM
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Posted By: leon

First of all thanks for coming on and clarifying a few things. Now, please show me exactly where "I" said you were referring to Mastro Auctions. Nothing personal but you are wrong. You are obviously defensive...but that is no crime and I still appreciate your knowledge. I was in fact, insinuating, about the many auctions running right now. Just as you question motives so do I. This board is great for that issue. I get my motives questioned, you get yours, and everyone else in our hobby gets theirs questioned too. No one is above reproach. I was not pointing to any "one" company , on purpose. You did that. kindest regards

edited to not be redundant

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  #42  
Old 10-28-2006, 11:48 AM
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Posted By: Chad

Was that card bleached and pressed? It's hard to tell in the after scan how much the crease is flattened. I'll assume it is the same card, but from the scans it's hard to find marks consistent between the two. This is going to be interesting, I think. Looking forward to what you guys think about it.

--Chad

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  #43  
Old 10-28-2006, 11:50 AM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

or Rob......why did the card get the MK qualifier from PSA? I don't see anything immediately on the front..........

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  #44  
Old 10-28-2006, 11:54 AM
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Posted By: cmoking

All I did was post the scans I received via email. Other than that, I know as much as anyone else on the board

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  #45  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:01 PM
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Posted By: ScottIngold

Well..... Since Rob was obviously defensive about Maestro. Does this mean there is something shady going on there ?
Do people still have the same confidence ?
Just obvious questions that i now have ?

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  #46  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:02 PM
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Posted By: edacra

I'm not of the mindset that REA should name names - but will relate (for the umpteempth time) the story of the autograph dealer busted by the feds who operated for years and years at the front of every major show in the country, and through scd advertising.

The moral of that story is, any dealers that knew, really did have the responsibility to name names rather then just spread the word there was a bogeyman out there.

The other message? You CAN name names through legal channels and let authorities investigate these issues. I assure you, if someone took a hit for selling altered cards, it would do more to curb this practice then REA tattling on a message board about a few cards.

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  #47  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:07 PM
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Posted By: cmoking

Rob just sent me the back scan to post here:


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  #48  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:21 PM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

crystal clear now..........

As for auction houses, at least one has admittedly said they have used restoration on photos that were sold in their auction--consigned by a board member. So.....

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  #49  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:24 PM
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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I am not an expert...

but I would say that the card was:

Power erased... Soaked (washed)... and Pressed.

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  #50  
Old 10-28-2006, 12:36 PM
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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

If Rob is so terrified of being sued for providing names then why put out a 500 word essay in two paragraphs on what he is noticing and what he is doing about it? I think it is admirable that he is doing it but why not just do it behind the scenes, as he has been doing, and conduct his auctions as he sees fit? Making a pronouncement only rattles the cages of collectors and leaves them with more questions, and uneasiness.

As for who is altering cards? Well virtually every dealer is doing it to some degree or another. There are many collectors on here that are doing it. Again, what constitutes altering a card? Rob may think that simply erasing a stray pencil mark is altering. He has not given nearly enough specifics. There was just a thread recently about a smaller auction in which cards went from lower holders to higher holders. Are those cards altered? Would Rob consider what was done to those cards to be alterations?

I don't think anyone on here was implying that cards Rob has rejected were part of the Mastro auction that ended last night but I too find the timing of Rob's email interesting. I also find Rob's comment that he did not know Mastro was ending last night to be...odd. Being in the auction business I would figure he would know about every auction that is ending if nothing more than for pure curiosity.

Greg

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