Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"

[toybulldog]

Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA.

Must disagree, you can compare your PSA vintage signed Holyfield to a screenfull (or two) of vintage Holyfields and see there is absolutely no resemblance. Nothing supports it.

If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Don't think you will get didley squat from someone who knows boxing autographs, they will immediately see you are full of it. Do believe you could get something from a novice collector with the TPA false value added to it but is that something to be proud of?

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[travrosty]

i also take offense to the statement that you just sell, and you dont care, as long as psa slabs it. I also take offense to the statement that no one cares about my opinion or mark ogren's opinion because we are not an official tpa.

we get asked all the time if PSA or JSA certed autographs are actually real or not when it concerns boxing.

we have sold hundreds upon hundreds of real boxing autographs to discerning collectors who are interested in getting a real autograph, not just a certed one. The autographs we have sold dont have a third party tpa - psa or jsa cert with it the vast, vast majority of the time and we sell them for market value to people all over the world.

so to say that psa or jsa is the only word that matters and who cares if it is real, is irresponsible.


psa and jsa kept certing geraldine liston signed "sonny liston" autographs as real, both encapsulating them and issuing full loa's for them, even though BCN newsletter had shown those to be wife signed for many years, psa and jsa kept certing them until people like myself and mark showed the auction houses and the tpa's that they were no good.

now if you got one in tomorrow and you knew it was a wife signed liston, i suppose you could list it on ebay and sell it as a real liston and you wouldnt care. i do care because i have to sleep at night.

If i wanted to , i didnt have to alert psa and jsa and the auction houses, i could simply buy geraldine liston signed "sonny liston" autographs for cheap and submit them to psa and jsa and get the certs and flip them for 800 dollars apiece. I would be rich. Playing the game I guess some people don't care. They want the cert and no autograph is real or fake, there is no truth in autographs, it's only what you can get certed. That's pathetic.

We have seen psa and jsa make hundreds of errors concerning these boxing autographs and you either fall into two camps. You are interested in finding out if the autograph is real or not, or you want money you think the tpa's can provide by get any autograph certed, whether you know they are real or not, or really care.

I will go with accuracy and with the truth, and the money will always follow a competant dealer that offers good autographs with experience in boxing autographs to back it up. Other can pay psa or jsa and spin the wheel.

Mark is right, a knowledgable collector and real boxing fan who knows their autographs will not purchase a bad boxing autograph even if it is in a psa or jsa holder with a full LOA. if it takes someone who doesnt know boxing autographs who buys it because it is psa or jsa. Again, is that something to be proud of, that someone who doesn't know but is trusting psa or jsa fell for an autograph that isn't any good?

I could have been rich many times over taking advantage of the loopholes knowing what psa or jsa would pass concerning boxing autographs and exploiting their inexperience in boxing. But I am not rich, because I put accuracy first. A bad boxing autograph that is encapsulated in a psa or jsa holder stays that way forever, which is sickening and something I hate to see, because we have seen almost every HOF boxer from Sullivan to Tyson in a bad holder or with a bad full LOA. And it infects the hobby forever when they don't know the autograph but give it the LOA or encapsulation anyway.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Why....I think Adam is doing an amazing job of describing how many of us feel about the autograph part of this hobby. I never got into autographs because I could never get comfortable if I didn't see something signed in person. That is just me and I certainly do not criticize people who enjoy autographs as much as I enjoy my publications, photos, tickets, etc.

Jeff

I just wanted to be clear, i know there are people who dont specialize in autographs, so they dont what what to do, so they trust psa or jsa, which is the two companies they know others will trust too, and they can participate in the marketplace such as auctions and ebay and they can buy and sell without hassle.

The point i am trying to make is that it is an entire market that is not based on the truth of whether or not an autograph is real or not, especially concerning boxing, but it is a market based on popularity of the cert. and if thats what people are worried about, then they must realize they are participating in something that is not accuracy based, but popularity based.

that's all i am trying to say. I think many people are so confused as to whether an autograph can accurately be figured out, that they have thrown their hands up and decided to go with what is popular, that is they have decided that they will let psa and jsa decide for everybody what is real or not, and if it gets the cert, it's real, and if it gets rejected, it is fake.

i can tell you point blank that thinking like that is incredibly flawed, shortsighted, and wrong.

psa and jsa have wrongly authenticated as real the following autographs

secretarial signed john l sullivan letter

wife signed bob fitzsimmons letter

manager signed bob fitzsimmons letter

hotel registry ghost signed by james corbett, tom sharkey, and james jeffries

james corbett 1892 inscribed cut

Jack Johnson "signed" boxing card manufactured only after Johnson's death

manager signed jack dempsey autographed photo

11 bad max schmeling signed photos consigned to one auction and only pulled after they were alerted that the major tpa didnt quite hit the mark on that one.

secretarial signed jack sharkey signed photo

bad primo carnera signed photo

many, many, many bad joe Louis signed photos and album pages, too many to count, this is truly their low point. and i mean a LOT of them.

bad luis firpo signed photo but it got the cert anyway.

numerous wife signed sonny liston signed album pages while rejected authentic signed liston autographs.

An autographed album page they encapsulated and certified as Rocky Marciano that is an autograph of Rocky Graziano.

Rocky Marciano preprinted or stamped autographed photo.

Many, many many bad Muhammad Ali signatures both secretarial, autopen and
just plain bad signatures on all types of photos, and pages. And we are talking a lot, in one instance 75 ali autographed photos were certed in a row with consecutive cert numbers. this is a type of ali autographed photo they won't cert anymore, but it didnt stop 75 consecutive ones to get the cert. Do they know Ali?

Mike Tyson preprinted 8 x 10 photo where the autograph is IN the photo, not on top of it.

So does this convince you yet, or what? And these are only the ones that show up on ebay and online for sale. not considering the zillions of certed boxing autographs that just go in someones collection that we can't see.

You can just play the game and go with the cert, it's called cert shopping, or you can find out if it is actually a genuine boxing autograph or not. Your choice. Many choose the cert shopping for monetary reasons. I understand why they choose it ($$$) but not why it makes them true boxing autograph collectors and dealers.

One compay told me directly that they need help in boxing. why would they say that if they were "world experts" as they claim to be? That means the best in the world? Who knows boxing autographs and believes that statement? no one.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

I just wanted to be clear, i know there are people who dont specialize in autographs, so they dont what what to do, so they trust psa or jsa, which is the two companies they know others will trust too, and they can participate in the marketplace such as auctions and ebay and they can buy and sell without hassle.

The point i am trying to make is that it is an entire market that is not based on the truth of whether or not an autograph is real or not, especially concerning boxing, but it is a market based on popularity of the cert. and if thats what people are worried about, then they must realize they are participating in something that is not accuracy based, but popularity based.

that's all i am trying to say. I think many people are so confused as to whether an autograph can accurately be figured out, that they have thrown their hands up and decided to go with what is popular, that is they have decided that they will let psa and jsa decide for everybody what is real or not, and if it gets the cert, it's real, and if it gets rejected, it is fake.

i can tell you point blank that thinking like that is incredibly flawed, shortsighted, and wrong.

psa and jsa have wrongly authenticated as real the following autographs

secretarial signed john l sullivan letter

wife signed bob fitzsimmons letter

manager signed bob fitzsimmons letter

hotel registry ghost signed by james corbett, tom sharkey, and james jeffries

james corbett 1892 inscribed cut

Jack Johnson "signed" boxing card manufactured only after Johnson's death

manager signed jack dempsey autographed photo

11 bad max schmeling signed photos consigned to one auction and only pulled after they were alerted that the major tpa didnt quite hit the mark on that one.

secretarial signed jack sharkey signed photo

bad primo carnera signed photo

many, many, many bad joe Louis signed photos and album pages, too many to count, this is truly their low point. and i mean a LOT of them.

bad luis firpo signed photo but it got the cert anyway.

numerous wife signed sonny liston signed album pages while rejected authentic signed liston autographs.

An autographed album page they encapsulated and certified as Rocky Marciano that is an autograph of Rocky Graziano.

Rocky Marciano preprinted or stamped autographed photo.

Many, many many bad Muhammad Ali signatures both secretarial, autopen and
just plain bad signatures on all types of photos, and pages. And we are talking a lot, in one instance 75 ali autographed photos were certed in a row with consecutive cert numbers. this is a type of ali autographed photo they won't cert anymore, but it didnt stop 75 consecutive ones to get the cert. Do they know Ali?

Mike Tyson preprinted 8 x 10 photo where the autograph is IN the photo, not on top of it.

So does this convince you yet, or what? And these are only the ones that show up on ebay and online for sale. not considering the zillions of certed boxing autographs that just go in someones collection that we can't see.

You can just play the game and go with the cert, it's called cert shopping, or you can find out if it is actually a genuine boxing autograph or not. Your choice. Many choose the cert shopping for monetary reasons. I understand why they choose it ($$$) but not why it makes them true boxing autograph collectors and dealers.

One compay told me directly that they need help in boxing. why would they say that if they were "world experts" as they claim to be? That means the best in the world? Who knows boxing autographs and believes that statement? no one.

Travis, I agree with you because NO ONE can say with absolute certainty if an autograph is real or not if they didn't see it signed in front of them. So anyone using a TPA is only getting the opinion not the guarantee that the autograph is real.

Of the few autographs pieces in my collection, I am not certain that they are all real but I think that they look good and that is enough for me. On the other hand, I am not considering any time soon, spending 1,000's of dollars adding autographs to my collection.

Jeff