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#1
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Paul Moss
In order to keep up with the market and current pricing, I find it necessary to note examples of single cards that appear in the major auction houses primarily on the sets that I deal with on a consistant basis. It has proven to be worthwhile in spotting trends, or increased interest on a specific set that could be beneficial to my small, but humble business. Although I call into question many of the so called "record prices" attained in a non-public, non-open forum each and every sale, I still enter them into the book. Perhaps they do indeed obtain these staggering numbers time after time and those of us peasants that struggle in the trenches daily on ebay are somehow not worthy of these heavy hitters fighting over our miserable offerings. |
#2
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Frank Evanov
An impressive presentation Paul. Thanks for the all the time it must have taken to uncover this. On looking at a few of the cards side by side, they are indeed the same and each has been graded and "sold" twice. Here's an obvious one: |
#3
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: jeffdrum
So what's the conclusion? Were they essentially not sold the first time? All were won by non-paying bidders? |
#4
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Wesley
The most important question is whether JP sends the flips back to PSA so the population reports remain accurate. |
#5
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: bruce Dorskind
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#6
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: David Vargha
Paul is indeed brilliant. Plus he's a Texan and has a funny user name to boot. |
#7
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I didn't get very far on the list yet, but clearly the two 1912 T202 Hassan Tpl.Folder F.Clarke/R.Byrne Collins Easily Safe PSA 6 EX-MT are not the same cards. |
#8
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: jeffdrum
Tinker T3 is not the same either. |
#9
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Certainly at first blush the ones I have looked at appear to be the same card, but with different certs. There must be a logical explanation. |
#10
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Just picking another one at random and it does not appear to be the same card either: |
#11
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Paul Moss
"however in a few cases these cards appear to be the same" |
#12
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Sorry Paul....I guess by reading some of the followups I inferred that you were posting cards that seemed to be broken out and resubmitted to PSA. My apologies. |
#13
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby
"The most important question is whether JP sends the flips back to PSA so the population reports remain accurate." |
#14
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Look through the Goudeys. That is where at least to my eye some of the cards appear to be the same, but with different certs as Paul mentioned. |
#15
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
Peter, some of the cards do appear to be the same exact card....The card Frank posted above looks to be the exact same card. Obviously not all of them are the same though. I think it's perfectly legitimate to be questioning what's going on here because it doesn't look right on a circumstantial level. |
#16
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
It is hard to believe someone would have cracked all those high dollar, high grade, low pop cards out and resubmitted them -- it also appears that the "new" ones are not in any sequence in terms of the certification numbers so that seems to cut against that theory? |
#17
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Cat
Cards can be resubmitted to PSA to be reholdered and it is quite cheap to do so (new cert #?...I don't know, never done this). The question is: if one entity was reholdering a great number of cards wouldn't it raise a red flag to the grader? Certainly would seem to raise flags if the holders were pristine. Maybe Memory Lane was smart enough to put a big scratch in the holder before sending it back. |
#18
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
You get the same cert. on a reholder. That doesn't explain the situation. |
#19
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Frank Evanov
[1] The cards don't sell in Dec. [although we are told they did.] |
#20
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby
To complicate things even more, is it just my imagination, or do some of these cards look like they have tampered holders? |
#21
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: sagard
I'd expect a little of everything is in play here. Some huge sales on low pops lead to similar consignments hoping for the same result. Unfortunately one of the previous buyers is out of the market and the price drops. Others are probably no pays/no sells. |
#22
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Frank Evanov
I'd expect a little of everything is in play here. Some huge sales on low pops lead to similar consignments hoping for the same result. Unfortunately one of the previous buyers is out of the market and the price drops. Others are probably no pays/no sells. |
#23
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I'm sure there is a perfectly reasonable explanation here, he said, stifling a laugh. Perhaps it will be the same reason for receiving an email that their auction was still receiving bids 16 hours after the closing of initial bidding. |
#24
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
But with a different cert. That is the part I am trying to understand. Anyone have a logical explanation? |
#25
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Mike Mccullough
The March holder looks frosty on the edges... Could it be???? |
#26
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
The cert number before the bottom Grove is a 1959 Topps Len Carpenter, and the cert number after it is a 1959 Topps Bobby Mitchell. |
#27
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Funny how the cards received old cert numbers even though they were clearly re-submitted. Does anyone know if Memory Lane and PSA have a close relationship that could have facilitated such a thing? I can't imagine that PSA would do something for ML that is below standard ethical practice in the industry. |
#28
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Mike
The logical explanation is scary! |
#29
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby
Yes Peter, I was just checking that cert on the "March" 1934 Goudey Grove too and it's placed within a significant run of 1959 Topps Football cards. Very strange indeed. One would think '59 Topps FB cards and a '34 Goudey PSA 8 Grove would not even be within the same pricing structure and service for grading. |
#30
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Steve M.
I checked the certs and they both came in as 34G Groves PSA 8. |
#31
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
Just one little observation (which has already been implied). Resubmitting after cracking out and NOT returning the paper cert renders the pop report inaccurate in a way that serves to devalue the card. This is especially important when the salient selling point is the suggested scarcity of high grade PSA cards (which is Mem. Lane's entire business). So, as a business decision it's pretty stupid. |
#32
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Dave
If it looks like a duck,and walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck...then it's probably a duck. |
#33
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
The April Willie Kamm appears to be sandwiched between two midgrade 53 Bowman Color cards, a 5 Furillo and a 6 Slaughter. Well, I am sure the explanation will surface. |
#34
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peck
Not speaking of any certain auction: |
#35
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
The most amazing thing to me about all this is that PSA would associate itself so closely with Memory Lane -- even to the point of cleaning up its message boards which discussed JP Cohen's past -- just for advertising dollars presumably. |
#36
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Suppose I submit a bunch of cards and, within that run, a card gets rejected. I believe it gets assigned a cert. number. Is that number then available to be assigned to another legitimate card, or is it supposed to be "retired" for all time? IF at least some of these Goudeys from the second auction are in fact the same cards as from the first auction, and IF they in fact were resubmitted, I am looking for a logical explanation why they would have cert. numbers that were not in order and the only thing I can think of is that PSA took the occasion to reassign some old numbers that were available? Does that make sense? Of course I also don't understand why anyone would crack out high grade high dollar low pop cards to begin with (the Greenberg, for example, due to centering had zero chance of a 9)..... |
#37
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Sean C
"The most amazing thing to me about all this is that PSA would associate itself so closely with Memory Lane -- even to the point of cleaning up its message boards which discussed JP Cohen's past -- just for advertising dollars presumably. " |
#38
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Steve M.
"I am looking for a logical explanation why they would have cert. numbers that were not in order..." |
#39
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
In my experience submissions are returned with consecutive cert. numbers. Are you saying this does not happen at a show? |
#40
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: quan
jeff i don't have time to follow the various boards that much anymore, did the psa people lock any threads on the cu board discussing about jp and ml? that would suck majorly. from personal experience when i've submitted single card to psa for crossover on previous occasions it's been sandwiched between a rejected '89 UD Griffey Jr and a '62 basketball Maravich card etc etc. |
#41
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
IF, and again it's IF, some of these cards are the same, in addition to winding up in different non-consecutive certs., how did they happen to end up in the same auction just 4 months later? |
#42
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Sean C
They went and outright deleted them (and I think some people were suspended over it as well). Nothing like protecting that advertising dollar... |
#43
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Steve M.
Yes, they are sequential at a show as well. I thought your concern was that the earlier Grove had an 0602...number and the second an 0159... number which would appear at first blush to be a lower number that the earlier one. Like I say the cert numbering system at PSA is a mystery to me. What I will say, contrary to a prior post, is that both of the pictured Grove cards are confirmed by PSA to be 1934 Goudey PSA 8 Grove cards. |
#44
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
My point was (1) that the "second" Grove (if it's the same card) has a cert. number within a group of 59 Topps FB which seems odd, and (2) that collectively, the "second" group of Goudeys (if they are the same cards) don't have consecutive numbers as you would expect if they were submitted all together by someone who won them and was cracking them out and resubmitting them, but appear to be numbered all over the place. Sorry if I wasn't clear. |
#45
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Steve M.
Thanks, now I understand. |
#46
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Frank A.
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#47
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Fred C
Frank Evanov's post with the two 34G Groves is interesting... what gives? I'm like 99% certain that those are the same cards with different certs and holders. I suppose we'll just bury our heads in the sand... why try to get an answer on it. At best we can assume the response is going to be Houdiniesque... |
#48
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby
Looking at PSA's book value (SMR) for the '34 Goudey PSA 8 Grove, it is listed at $3200 in PSA 8 and $7500 in PSA 9. Looking at the Fee Schedule for PSA Services, the submitter had to have used the Walk-Through Service at $85/per card. |
#49
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: Eric B
Good question, Whenitwasahobby |
#50
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Memory Lane Redux?
Posted By: WhenItWasAHobby
If these cards were bought strictly in hopes of getting a "bump-up" there are several including this one, that in my opinion, wouldn't stand a chance of going a grade higher: |
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