OT: No One Elected to the Hall?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by drc

A line that separates for me is whether or not something is illegal. Tommy John surgery is legal, while taking steroids to improve athletic performance is illegal.

A footnote is that no one who had Tommy John surgery is in the Hall of Fame either. Including Tommy John.

My ONLY issue with the steroid problem is as many stated, that during the time it was not against the game's rules, and with the counter argument that it was illegal...NOW, I'm NOT trying to apply that to all steroid users, BUT steroids aren't exactly illegal as everyone is claiming. They are certainly legal when medically prescribed. There were PLENTY of players who were using it to cheat, and there were others who probably had legitimate medical reasons. The problem here is that without league testing at the time, we ALSO didn't have a system for exemptions in place as we do today. A small chunk of these players who perhaps would've qualified for an exemption are just being lumped in with the cheaters. WHY? Because they weren't against the games rules, to make an exemption necessary..

[insidethewrapper]

Both Tommy John Surgery etc and Steroids enhance a players performance and I believe neither were against the rules at the time. These are both facts.

Just as you can't compare the Deadball era against other era's stats. You can't compare the Steroid era either. You just pick out the best players from that era and put the top 1% in the Hall of Fame.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

My ONLY issue with the steroid problem is as many stated, that during the time it was not against the game's rules

Commissioner Vincent said they were not allowed in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick.../memos20051109

[HOF Auto Rookies]

All I know is that because of the ramifications of no one getting in this year, the small town (which primarily relys heavily on revenue from the inductions) will take a serious hit by the outcome of this vote. It was there pride and joy come induction day.

[buymycards]

I am laughing at all of the questions about who took steroids and who did not. The fact is that all of the players benefited from steroid use whether they took them or they did not. How many players have world series rings because they looked the other way when some of their teammates were using steroids? How many players received more salary because of the increased fan base during the McGwire/Sosa era?

In my opinion the players who weren't using are just as guilty as the players who were using. Why did they feel it was right to look the other way when a teammate was breaking the law or breaking the rules? Do you let someone commit a crime just because they are a teammate? What if the crime was something other than taking steroids, would they let a teammate get away with rape or stealing?

Even if it wasn't a crime - do you let someone get away with cheating? Being on the same team doesn't make it OK to let someone cheat. It needed to be addressed in the locker room or if it was a crime then it should be have reported to the police.

I love baseball and I hate to see the way the steroid use has degraded the integrity of the game, but I was very happy to see that no one was elected.

And to all of the players out there - have you ever heard of doing the right thing? Shouldn't your integrity and honesty mean more to you than some peer pressure from your co-workers? How can you expect your children to stand up to peer pressure when you could not?

Just my two cents.

Rick

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Commissioner Vincent said they were not allowed in 1991.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/etick.../memos20051109

That may be the case. But saying something doesn't make it so. Especially without an enforcement program in place. Without a testing program, there was not a proper exemption process.

Given the injury history of many of these players, I guarantee many of them were on a steroid at some point. I also think that at some point McGwire would've received a medical exemption. However, he's an odd case, because he was certainly also using before it became a medical necessity for him..

Anyways. here's an interesting article about the league exemptions. And there appears to be a pattern forming with ADHD drugs..
http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-...ll-this-season

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...ositive-113012

[emmygirl]

Originally Posted by queencitysportscards

This article sums it up for me...I agree with Stark.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/hof13/story/_...b-hall-fame-be

Hank

Just read Stark's article and have to agree. Hits the problem right on the head. Can't agree more. I want my favorite players in the Hall or if not lets have a place that honors all ballplayers with all their misgivings.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by novakjr

That may be the case. But saying something doesn't make it so. Especially without an enforcement program in place. Without a testing program, there was not a proper exemption process.

Given the injury history of many of these players, I guarantee many of them were on a steroid at some point. I also think that at some point McGwire would've received a medical exemption. However, he's an odd case, because he was certainly also using before it became a medical necessity for him..

Anyways. here's an interesting article about the league exemptions. And there appears to be a pattern forming with ADHD drugs..
http://deadspin.com/5964744/1-in-10-...ll-this-season

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/m...ositive-113012

Maybe Barry or McGwire can show the prescription their doctor wrote for them, but I'm guessing they acquired their drugs from a juicehead at the local gym...not exactly the method most would use who have a legitimate medical condition.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Maybe Barry or McGwire can show the prescription their doctor wrote for them, but I'm guessing they acquired their drugs from a juicehead at the local gym...not exactly the method most would use who have a legitimate medical condition.

Barry's different, dude flat out juiced.

Mac definitely juiced. After the nagging injuries in '93 and '94, I believe he would've been able to receive an exemption though. But that's irrelevant because he was already using anyways. I wouldn't hold the Andro over him either. It was sold over the counter, and the government didn't even categorize it as a steroid until 2004.. Again though, that's also irrelevant because of previous use..

I'm just saying that there were probably a number of players who could've been granted an exemption. IF you were to know what current players have legitimately been granted exemptions, would you hold it over them?

[ctownboy]

Novakjr,

The reason testing wasn't implemented was because Bud Selig (and a couple of other owners) staged a palace coup and caused Fay Vincent to resign as Commissioner.

Vincent sent out a seven page letter stating that steroids were illegal in baseball. The problem was, baseball was in the middle of their agreement with the players and implementing rules against steroids and having a testing program would have meant opening up the collective bargaining agreement and putting the rules in. The owners didn't want to do that. They wanted to wait until the next bargaining session.

The problem with that was Selig and Reinsdorf got a no confidence vote against Vincent and Vincent resigned (with Selig taking over as acting Commissioner). So, the next time contract negotiations came up, Selig was in charge and he said NOTHING about steroids and testing. Therefor, a new contract was in place an no testing was implemented.

Selig COULD have stopped this mess before it started but he didn't. That is why I laugh at him for the mess baseball is currently in.

David

[brob28]

Originally Posted by dgo71

wow, every cliche defense of steroids in one concise post.

Steroids don't make you hit the ball -
yes, steroids do actually improve your vision, and thus your hand-eye coordination. But let's not forget that added strength also improves bat speed, which is pretty important in hitting. Palmeiro had the bat speed of a little leaguer at the start of the season he got his 3000th, then all of a sudden he's whipping it through the zone. Magic? It boggles my mind that people don't want to admit that "performance enhancing" drugs enhance your performance! There must be some reason guys take them, right? I doubt it's only because they want their "boys" to shrink and take 10 years off their lives.

Not against the rules -
i didn't know baseball had to implement a rule for players to know they shouldn't do it. I don't think baseball has a rule in place for pulling out a gun and shooting a guy trying to steal second, so it must be ok. That'll teach you juan pierre! Was it not enough that the u.s. Government made steroids illegal? I think u.s. Law trumps the baseball rulebook.

Gaylord perry-
the old standby for every steroid defender. Perry pitched in a different era when emery boards and vaseline were considered cute. He got grandfathered so to speak. Did he cheat? Hell yes he did. But for whatever reason there has always been a certain amount of inconsistency in the way people viewed what he did and the negative stigma of steroids. In either event, two (or twenty) wrongs don't make a right. Perry's induction doesn't pave the way for enshrining other cheaters.

Ritalin/amphetamines/eye surgery/etc. -
quite simply, to compare a medical procedure like eye surgery to steroids is about as apples and oranges as you can get. That's like saying if a guy hits the gym 5 days a week, he has an unfair advantage over the guy who goes 3 times a week. There are shades of gray, and the effects any of these things has on ones performance compared to what steroids can do is miles apart.



Absolutely! They cheated to gain fame and megamillion dollar contracts, and now we're all supposed to feel sorry for them and bestow on them the highest honor an athlete can have? No thanks. They didn't mind sullying the game and their reputations for the lure of big money and adulation, they shouldn't be rewarded now after betraying the fans that cheered them on through their tainted careers.

+100

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Novakjr,

The reason testing wasn't implemented was because Bud Selig (and a couple of other owners) staged a palace coup and caused Fay Vincent to resign as Commissioner.

Vincent sent out a seven page letter stating that steroids were illegal in baseball. The problem was, baseball was in the middle of their agreement with the players and implementing rules against steroids and having a testing program would have meant opening up the collective bargaining agreement and putting the rules in. The owners didn't want to do that. They wanted to wait until the next bargaining session.

The problem with that was Selig and Reinsdorf got a no confidence vote against Vincent and Vincent resigned (with Selig taking over as acting Commissioner). So, the next time contract negotiations came up, Selig was in charge and he said NOTHING about steroids and testing. Therefor, a new contract was in place an no testing was implemented.

Selig COULD have stopped this mess before it started but he didn't. That is why I laugh at him for the mess baseball is currently in.

David

+1, Selig is a dog

[triwak]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Just as you can't compare the Deadball era against other era's stats. You can't compare the Steroid era either. You just pick out the best players from that era and put the top 1% in the Hall of Fame.

Agreed! I'm glad an attempt has been made to clean up the game. But mainly, because the GAME ITSELF was suffering. It was beginning to look more & more like slow-pitch softball: You either strike out (3rd foul in softball), or you trot your fat ass around the bases after connecting. Speed had almost totally been removed from the game. Also remember, PEDs were not the ONLY reason that power numbers skyrocketed; The juiced ball, shorter fences, smaller strike zone, etc. also contributed. It seems that things have somewhat returned to normalcy in recent years, and good for that.
But you can't ignore history!!!! It happened. The Hall just needs to be truthful (on the plaques), and recognize the "Steroid Era" as the time when players, owners, executives, coaches, AND fans were in transition about how the game should evolve. And it was exciting as hell!! (For awhile). We eventually came to our senses.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by buymycards

I am laughing at all of the questions about who took steroids and who did not. The fact is that all of the players benefited from steroid use whether they took them or they did not. How many players have world series rings because they looked the other way when some of their teammates were using steroids? How many players received more salary because of the increased fan base during the McGwire/Sosa...

I think many more players were kept out of the league due to steroid use. SI did a great article last year about 4 pitches drafted by the Twins. All had very similar builds (btwn 6'4"-6'5" and wirey) and threw at similar velocities (85-87).
Over a 3-4 year period 3 of them hit a plateau while one was able to consistently build muscle/body mass, to the point he'd gained about 60 lbs. He also gained about 10 MPH on his fastball and ended up in the big leagues throwing nearly 100 MPH.

A good buddy of mine was a really good football player and was invited to 2-3 camps with the 49ers. He never made the team, and eventually ended up in the XFL. He'd tell me about guys who would get stronger after weeks of hot practice when everyone was else was wearing down.. And those guys separated themselves from the others. He knew several guys were juicing, and several were playing, making teams, getting paid in large part because of it.

The focus always seems to be on 5-6, maybe 10 guys who are the best of the best and threatening this or that record... And in a game like baseball its understandable since records are so sacred, but I think the far more expansive problem lies within the fringes and the hundreds/thousands of players who have to face a choice to use or not. Guys who see people flying past them in the minors, or an NFL training camp, and see their dream opportunity slipping away.

I guess this has very little to do with the hall vote, so may not even be relevant to this conversation, but I do think it deserves more attention in general.

[ctownboy]

The PROBLEM with picking out the best players from the Steroid Era is that BECAUSE of the steroids no one REALLY KNOWS WHO the best players were during that era.

As a hypothetical example, compare Mark McGwire to Wally Joyner. Both played First Base. Both played in the American League. Both played on the West Coast. Both played during the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Now, if you compare their stats, you would say that Mark McGwire is more deserving of the Hall Of Fame because he hit many more Home Runs. But what if McGwire juiced and Joyner didn't? What if McGwire didn't take steroids or some other PED and he didn't hit 583 Home Runs. What if he hit 50 or maybe even 100 fewer Home Runs because he wasn't on the juice? How would Joyner and McGwire compare then?

What if because he took steroids, McGwire was on the All Star team more and had more MVP votes? Take away the steroids, reduce the number of Home Runs (and Runs scored, RBIs, Walks, Slugging Percentage and OPS) and guess what? McGwire doesn't look like a much better player than Joyner. In fact, take those things away and Joyner may have made more All Star team and gotten more MVP votes. So add those to his stats and maybe Joyner looks like a more deserving Hall Of Fame candidate than McGwire.

But, because of steroids, Human Growth Hormone and other PEDS, we wont know who was helped because they cheated and who were hurt because they didn't and we wont know the extent of either. In short, we wont REALLY know WHO the BEST players were during that era. So, I am in favor of NONE of them getting in. Unless, of course, these players want to come forward and say the are clean and then take tests to prove it. Or, they want to come forward, admit they cheated, tell exactly what they did and then have people judge them for it.

David

[novakjr]

Wally Joyner? Where's the love for Eric Karros? At one point, dude had 30+ HR's and 100 RBI's five times in a six year stretch. And didn't make ANY all star teams. Now that's a guy who got raped by the steroid era. At least Joyner got 1 All star game.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think many more players were kept out of the league due to steroid use.

The very first time I heard of steroid use in MLB, it was from David McCarty when he was in AAA and bemoaning the fact that the minor leaguers were tested near-daily, while the MLB guys got away with whatever they wanted scott free. There were many players who didn't get a fair shake because cheaters took their roster spot, and beyond any ridiculous records and statistics, this is what bothers me about steroids the most.

Originally Posted by ctownboy

The PROBLEM with picking out the best players from the Steroid Era is that BECAUSE of the steroids no one REALLY KNOWS WHO the best players were during that era.

A hundred times YES. It is the shadow of doubt these players cast on themselves that now hurts their case.

[packs]

To me there is no question who the best players of the steroid era are. They are Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, and Albert Belle.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

Just as you can't compare the Deadball era against other era's stats. You can't compare the Steroid era either. You just pick out the best players from that era and put the top 1% in the Hall of Fame.

Again this is an apples to oranges comparison. The deadball era was a period of time in which EVERY player was subjected to the nuances of the era. In other words, a level playing field. It's borderline naive to overlook how drastically steroids changed the playing field for some players and not others. These aren't energy drinks or little green pills. They are dangerous chemicals that radically alter ones physical body, strength and performance. Again, shades of grey. It's easy to say cheating is cheating and lump steroids in with emery boards and vaseline and mushy baseballs, but comparing those things is simply not accurate. Just look at the stats and it's pretty apparent how quick and radical the effect of PED's was on the game.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by dgo71

The very first time I heard of steroid use in MLB, it was from David McCarty when he was in AAA and bemoaning the fact that the minor leaguers were tested near-daily, while the MLB guys got away with whatever they wanted scott free. There were many players who didn't get a fair shake because cheaters took their roster spot, and beyond any ridiculous records and statistics, this is what bothers me about steroids the most.

How long until these players sue the league for lost wages? Similar to the collusion suits in the 80's.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

The PROBLEM with picking out the best players from the Steroid Era is that BECAUSE of the steroids no one REALLY KNOWS WHO the best players were during that era.

As a hypothetical example, compare Mark McGwire to Wally Joyner. Both played First Base. Both played in the American League. Both played on the West Coast. Both played during the late 1980's and early 1990's.

Now, if you compare their stats, you would say that Mark McGwire is more deserving of the Hall Of Fame because he hit many more Home Runs. But what if McGwire juiced and Joyner didn't? What if McGwire didn't take steroids or some other PED and he didn't hit 583 Home Runs. What if he hit 50 or maybe even 100 fewer Home Runs because he wasn't on the juice? How would Joyner and McGwire compare then?

What if because he took steroids, McGwire was on the All Star team more and had more MVP votes? Take away the steroids, reduce the number of Home Runs (and Runs scored, RBIs, Walks, Slugging Percentage and OPS) and guess what? McGwire doesn't look like a much better player than Joyner. In fact, take those things away and Joyner may have made more All Star team and gotten more MVP votes. So add those to his stats and maybe Joyner looks like a more deserving Hall Of Fame candidate than McGwire.

But, because of steroids, Human Growth Hormone and other PEDS, we wont know who was helped because they cheated and who were hurt because they didn't and we wont know the extent of either. In short, we wont REALLY know WHO the BEST players were during that era. So, I am in favor of NONE of them getting in. Unless, of course, these players want to come forward and say the are clean and then take tests to prove it. Or, they want to come forward, admit they cheated, tell exactly what they did and then have people judge them for it.

David

+1