NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12-11-2017, 05:53 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
ja.ke liebe.rman
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/mysetregistry/set/348387
Posts: 5,738
Default

i still think there should be a hall of fame within the hall of fame..

like first ballot's versus the other guys
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:31 PM
SAllen2556's Avatar
SAllen2556 SAllen2556 is offline
Scott
Scott All.en
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
With regard to wins as a stat.

Tell me which year this pitcher had more wins. Same pitcher. Same team. Consecutive years.

Year 1:

Team wins: 99
Pitcher ERA 3.00
Home runs allowed: 13
WHIP: 1.28
FIP: 3.46
Innings: 210

Year 2:

Team wins: 103
Pitcher ERA: 2.95
Home runs allowed: 26
WHIP: 1.23
FIP: 4.19
Innings: 238

Did the pitcher have:

A lot more wins in year 1?
A few more wins in year 1?
The same number of wins both years?
A few more wins in year 2?
A lot more wins in year 2?

Explain your answer.
I'd say he won a lot more in year 2 - like 10 more wins maybe. My explanation: I looked it up.

Yes, Morris is borderline at best, but you can use statistics to prove just about anything. Just ask my kids why it's statistically in my best interest to pay 25 grand a year for each of them to go to the University of Michigan vs. a college that costs less than half that.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:53 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 598
Default

For all the talk of the HOF being watered down, there have been only 222 players (excludes managers, Negro leaguers, and pioneers) out of approximately 19,000 historical MLB players over 148 years, or like 1%, that have made it. To me, that is pretty exclusive.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:10 PM
nickedson nickedson is offline
Nick
member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 91
Default Deserved The Hall

I had the pleasure of covering the Tigers during the careers of Trammell and Morris. Trammell, in my mind, was a Hall of Famer... as was Lou Whitaker, who I think will eventually get in. I'm told that what put Morris over the top Sunday was the fact he was the winningest pitcher of the 1980s and won three World Series rings. I agree that Ted Simmons and Dale Murphy should get in. But my biggest beef with the Hall of Fame is that Marvin Miller hasn't gotten in.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:20 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAllen2556 View Post
I'd say he won a lot more in year 2 - like 10 more wins maybe. My explanation: I looked it up.

Yes, Morris is borderline at best, but you can use statistics to prove just about anything. Just ask my kids why it's statistically in my best interest to pay 25 grand a year for each of them to go to the University of Michigan vs. a college that costs less than half that.
Gah! Forgot to say not to cheat!!
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12-11-2017, 08:48 PM
insidethewrapper's Avatar
insidethewrapper insidethewrapper is offline
Mike
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,345
Default

All Hall of Fames have the same problems. If you compare the top to the rest, the rest don't stand up. In music, you have Elvis , The Beatles and a few others,all the rest are a joke .
__________________
Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline).
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:01 PM
triwak's Avatar
triwak triwak is offline
Ken Wirt
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Durango, Colorado
Posts: 1,022
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejharrington View Post
For all the talk of the HOF being watered down, there have been only 222 players (excludes managers, Negro leaguers, and pioneers) out of approximately 19,000 historical MLB players over 148 years, or like 1%, that have made it. To me, that is pretty exclusive.
+1
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 12-12-2017, 09:19 AM
Gnep31's Avatar
Gnep31 Gnep31 is offline
Brad
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fostoria, OH
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Right. Because the players are the keepers of baseball knowledge.
This is the Baseball HOF and wins do matter to baseball players. This isn't the writers HOF or the Analytics HOF. Is a person a great baseball player or not?

When a starting pitcher does his job his team more than likely wins. Especially in the 80's when starters lasted more than 6 innings.

Of the hundreds of games I have started pitching in my lifetime, including college and current Federation league, I can probably count on one hand the number of losses I have taken that were not my fault. If I lose 1-0 then I shouldn't have given up that one run. Some people believe the team should have scored more, but that is not the mindset of a good starting pitcher or baseball players. All the analytics say it was a great start, but baseball players don't care....it wasn't a WIN.
__________________
Looking for Bo Jackson, Ryan Blaney (Nascar), 86-89 Fleer Basketball and Topps Vintage

My site: http://www.freewebs.com/gnep31/

Successful trades/transactions: Mountaineer1999, BlueDevel89, ezez420, Shorttmail66, Northviewcats, Mintacular, Elberson, NATCARD, Oneofthree67, Leerob538, shammus, Hawkfan70, 39special, scmavl, jimtigers65, rocuan
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 12-12-2017, 09:35 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnep31 View Post
This is the Baseball HOF and wins do matter to baseball players. This isn't the writers HOF or the Analytics HOF. Is a person a great baseball player or not?

When a starting pitcher does his job his team more than likely wins. Especially in the 80's when starters lasted more than 6 innings.

Of the hundreds of games I have started pitching in my lifetime, including college and current Federation league, I can probably count on one hand the number of losses I have taken that were not my fault. If I lose 1-0 then I shouldn't have given up that one run. Some people believe the team should have scored more, but that is not the mindset of a good starting pitcher or baseball players. All the analytics say it was a great start, but baseball players don't care....it wasn't a WIN.
Does that make a pitcher on a playoff team who wins 18 games with an ERA of 4.86 and WHIP of 1.44 a better pitcher than the guy who played for a 70 win team who went 11-13 with an ERA of 2.77 and a WHIP of 1.14?

Sounds like it does.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:13 AM
Gnep31's Avatar
Gnep31 Gnep31 is offline
Brad
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fostoria, OH
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Does that make a pitcher on a playoff team who wins 18 games with an ERA of 4.86 and WHIP of 1.44 a better pitcher than the guy who played for a 70 win team who went 11-13 with an ERA of 2.77 and a WHIP of 1.14?

Sounds like it does.
Yes...absolutely!

The guy who only won 11 games shouldn't have given up the runs in the situations he did or else he probably would have more wins.

Stats cannot paint an accurate or true picture on how runs were given up. The person with the higher ERA might have given up runs late in games that were already decided. He might have gotten roughed up on a day or two his arm was on fire. ERA doesn't factor in the guy who eats up innings, but gives his team a chance to win every time he takes the ball.

As a coach I take winners over stats guys all day every day. I've had players and teammates who rack up stats but choke in big situations or big games and cost us wins. They can't make the game winning shot or get the big out when it really matters the most. Players and coaches want to be around winners not stats guys.
__________________
Looking for Bo Jackson, Ryan Blaney (Nascar), 86-89 Fleer Basketball and Topps Vintage

My site: http://www.freewebs.com/gnep31/

Successful trades/transactions: Mountaineer1999, BlueDevel89, ezez420, Shorttmail66, Northviewcats, Mintacular, Elberson, NATCARD, Oneofthree67, Leerob538, shammus, Hawkfan70, 39special, scmavl, jimtigers65, rocuan
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:19 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnep31 View Post
Yes...absolutely!

The guy who only won 11 games shouldn't have given up the runs in the situations he did or else he probably would have more wins.

Stats cannot paint an accurate or true picture on how runs were given up. The person with the higher ERA might have given up runs late in games that were already decided. He might have gotten roughed up on a day or two his arm was on fire. ERA doesn't factor in the guy who eats up innings, but gives his team a chance to win every time he takes the ball.

As a coach I take winners over stats guys all day every day. I've had players and teammates who rack up stats but choke in big situations or big games and cost us wins. They can't make the game winning shot or get the big out when it really matters the most. Players and coaches want to be around winners not stats guys.

That makes very little practical sense. Everyone knows you have to score more runs than the other team to win a game. A pitcher who is going to give up less runs, i.e. has a low ERA, is going to put his team in a better situation to win. A guy with a higher ERA means his team has to score more runs to win the games he pitches.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:31 AM
Topnotchsy Topnotchsy is offline
Jeff Lazarus
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
That makes very little practical sense. Everyone knows you have to score more runs than the other team to win a game. A pitcher who is going to give up less runs, i.e. has a low ERA, is going to put his team in a better situation to win. A guy with a higher ERA means his team has to score more runs to win the games he pitches.
ERA tells the number of runs but not when they were given up. Not every run affects the outcome of the game the same. If we accept the idea that some people fold under pressure and others rise to the occasion, 2 people won’t the same ERA may be diifferent in how likely their team is to win.

A stat calculating win probability and the pitchers impact on it each time they give up a run could he’d light. I assume this exists somewhere...
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:35 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnep31 View Post
Yes...absolutely!

The guy who only won 11 games shouldn't have given up the runs in the situations he did or else he probably would have more wins.

Stats cannot paint an accurate or true picture on how runs were given up. The person with the higher ERA might have given up runs late in games that were already decided. He might have gotten roughed up on a day or two his arm was on fire. ERA doesn't factor in the guy who eats up innings, but gives his team a chance to win every time he takes the ball.

As a coach I take winners over stats guys all day every day. I've had players and teammates who rack up stats but choke in big situations or big games and cost us wins. They can't make the game winning shot or get the big out when it really matters the most. Players and coaches want to be around winners not stats guys.
So in 1908 you would take 21 year old Nick Maddox over 20 year old Walter Johnson then? Maddox won 23 games. Johnson just 14. Maddox was the better pitcher. Correct?
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:51 AM
Gnep31's Avatar
Gnep31 Gnep31 is offline
Brad
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fostoria, OH
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
That makes very little practical sense. Everyone knows you have to score more runs than the other team to win a game. A pitcher who is going to give up less runs, i.e. has a low ERA, is going to put his team in a better situation to win. A guy with a higher ERA means his team has to score more runs to win the games he pitches.

Stats in baseball are only indicators of expected outcomes. Too many other variables go into wins and losses.
__________________
Looking for Bo Jackson, Ryan Blaney (Nascar), 86-89 Fleer Basketball and Topps Vintage

My site: http://www.freewebs.com/gnep31/

Successful trades/transactions: Mountaineer1999, BlueDevel89, ezez420, Shorttmail66, Northviewcats, Mintacular, Elberson, NATCARD, Oneofthree67, Leerob538, shammus, Hawkfan70, 39special, scmavl, jimtigers65, rocuan
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 12-12-2017, 11:07 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topnotchsy View Post
ERA tells the number of runs but not when they were given up. Not every run affects the outcome of the game the same. If we accept the idea that some people fold under pressure and others rise to the occasion, 2 people won’t the same ERA may be diifferent in how likely their team is to win.

A stat calculating win probability and the pitchers impact on it each time they give up a run could he’d light. I assume this exists somewhere...
Yeah. There's a stat for that.

Win Probability Added (WPA) captures the change in Win Expectancy from one plate appearance to the next and credits or debits the player based on how much their action increased their team’s odds of winning. Most sabermetric statistics are context neutral — they do not consider the situation of a particular event or how some plays are more crucial to a win than others. While wOBA rates all home runs as equal, we know intuitively that a home run in the third inning of a blowout is less important to that win than a home run in the bottom of the ninth inning of a close game. WPA captures this difference.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 12-12-2017, 11:23 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnep31 View Post
Stats in baseball are only indicators of expected outcomes. Too many other variables go into wins and losses.

ERA is independent of a win or a loss. It looks like Baseball Reference has a stat called Win / Loss percentage with an Average Team too. Jack Morris' percentage for his career was 517, which meant he had just over a 50/50 chance of winning any game for any team over his entire career. That doesn't seem great. For comparison, Mike Mussina has a 590. Dave Stieb's percentage is 570.

Last edited by packs; 12-12-2017 at 11:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 12-12-2017, 11:59 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Not surprisingly, Jack Morris' WPA isn't anything special, much like the rest of his body of work. Thus disproving the notion that "he only gave up runs late in games that were blowouts" or "he gave up most of his runs in games where his team scored a lot of runs anyway".

Nope.

WPA values for the players from my list whom I said were better pitchers than Jack Morris:

Mike Mussina 37.67
Kevin Brown 31.63
Bret Saberhagen 25.62
Kevin Appier 23.13
David Cone 23.03
Jimmy Key 22.34
David Wells 20.60
Dwight Gooden 20.19
Dave Stieb 20.11
Frank Viola 17.16
Steve Finley 16.84
Rick Reuschel 15.23
Jack Morris 14.08
Kenny Rogers 11.79
Mark Langston 11.73
Bob Welch 10.31
Frank Tanana 10.07

So Morris is anywhere from somewhat below to way below most of the players on my list when the context of play by play comes into frame.

Still not a Hall Of Famer by any stretch.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 12-12-2017, 01:42 PM
abothebear abothebear is offline
George E.
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 644
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
So in 1908 you would take 21 year old Nick Maddox over 20 year old Walter Johnson then? Maddox won 23 games. Johnson just 14. Maddox was the better pitcher. Correct?
For 1908, this is a no-brainer. You take the 23 wins.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 12-12-2017, 03:10 PM
kailes2872's Avatar
kailes2872 kailes2872 is offline
Kev1n @1les
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh Area
Posts: 759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abothebear View Post
For 1908, this is a no-brainer. You take the 23 wins.
This is awesome! I just got a T206 Maddox (rubs hands together, laughs maniacally, and waits for value of the newly purchased Maddox card to exceed the big train...)
__________________
2024 Collecting Goals:

53-55 Red Mans Complete Set
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 12-12-2017, 03:33 PM
yanks12025's Avatar
yanks12025 yanks12025 is offline
Brock
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: framingham, ma
Posts: 2,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
I think Robinson Cano is a far superior player to Whitaker and he also plays second base. I think Cano will have a tough time getting in.
Robinson Cano will end up being one of the best 2nd in the game when he retires. He'll probably be a first ballot HOF.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 12-12-2017, 03:41 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks12025 View Post
Robinson Cano will end up being one of the best 2nd in the game when he retires. He'll probably be a first ballot HOF.
He should be but I think he'll have the same trouble Vlad is. People will see him a tweener because he won't have any one benchmark.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 12-12-2017, 03:50 PM
howard38 howard38 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 635
Default

.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872

Last edited by howard38; 09-11-2020 at 07:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 12-12-2017, 04:16 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abothebear View Post
For 1908, this is a no-brainer. You take the 23 wins.
So if you have those two pitchers switch teams what happens to the win totals of the pitchers?

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 12-12-2017, 04:20 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by howard38 View Post
His benchmark will probably be 3,000 hits but even without that he should get in.
It seems we sometimes lose sight of just how good Cano is from an historical perspective.

Tom C

Last edited by btcarfagno; 12-12-2017 at 05:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 12-12-2017, 05:31 PM
Jwkeen Jwkeen is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 108
Default

I have always thought the number of Hall of Famers was way too high and should be a much more exclusive club. It does get very complicated because you hear a lot of people talk about stats. Stats definitely are one of the primary ways of measuring worthiness, but don’t measure everything.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:38 PM
abothebear abothebear is offline
George E.
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 644
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
So if you have those two pitchers switch teams what happens to the win totals of the pitchers?

Tom C
Maddox wins 2 games less than he did for his original team because he started fewer games. Being so close to his hometown in Maryland, Nick would meet up with his old school chums and carouse, often being in no condition to take his turn on the Boundary Field mound.

Johnson wins four games then gets hit in the left orbital bone by a comebacker in the 7th inning of a game in mid-May. Walter battles blindness and chronic headaches for much of the rest of his life and never pitches again. But Pittsburg was ahead at the time of the accident and the team was able to finish out the win, so 5 wins.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 12-13-2017, 07:53 PM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by abothebear View Post
Maddox wins 2 games less than he did for his original team because he started fewer games. Being so close to his hometown in Maryland, Nick would meet up with his old school chums and carouse, often being in no condition to take his turn on the Boundary Field mound.

Johnson wins four games then gets hit in the left orbital bone by a comebacker in the 7th inning of a game in mid-May. Walter battles blindness and chronic headaches for much of the rest of his life and never pitches again. But Pittsburg was ahead at the time of the accident and the team was able to finish out the win, so 5 wins.
Ouch. That's a very Piratey outcome by the way. They have WaJo in the fold and he never gets a chance to become WaJo.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:33 AM
Gnep31's Avatar
Gnep31 Gnep31 is offline
Brad
member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Fostoria, OH
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post

WPA values for the players from my list whom I said were better pitchers than Jack Morris:

Mike Mussina 37.67
Kevin Brown 31.63
Bret Saberhagen 25.62
Kevin Appier 23.13
David Cone 23.03
Jimmy Key 22.34
David Wells 20.60
Dwight Gooden 20.19
Dave Stieb 20.11
Frank Viola 17.16
Steve Finley 16.84
Rick Reuschel 15.23
Jack Morris 14.08
Kenny Rogers 11.79
Mark Langston 11.73
Bob Welch 10.31
Frank Tanana 10.07

So Morris is anywhere from somewhat below to way below most of the players on my list when the context of play by play comes into frame.

Still not a Hall Of Famer by any stretch.
We obviously are not going to agree about metrics in regards to Morris being HOF worthy, which is ok. Tell me this...as a hitter, who would you least like to face from your list? Take all numbers out of the equation...as a baseball player who would be the toughest pitcher to face? Give me your top 3.

Mine would be:
Doc Gooden
Frank Tanana (in his prime)
Jack Morris
__________________
Looking for Bo Jackson, Ryan Blaney (Nascar), 86-89 Fleer Basketball and Topps Vintage

My site: http://www.freewebs.com/gnep31/

Successful trades/transactions: Mountaineer1999, BlueDevel89, ezez420, Shorttmail66, Northviewcats, Mintacular, Elberson, NATCARD, Oneofthree67, Leerob538, shammus, Hawkfan70, 39special, scmavl, jimtigers65, rocuan
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:37 AM
hammer's Avatar
hammer hammer is offline
Henry Nich.ols
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 131
Default

Pete Rose or Denny McClain I guess it pays to be a prim and proper citizen.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:47 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnep31 View Post
We obviously are not going to agree about metrics in regards to Morris being HOF worthy, which is ok. Tell me this...as a hitter, who would you least like to face from your list? Take all numbers out of the equation...as a baseball player who would be the toughest pitcher to face? Give me your top 3.

Mine would be:
Doc Gooden
Frank Tanana (in his prime)
Jack Morris
At the top of their game?

Gooden
Cone
Saberhagen
Mussina
Brown
Stieb
Key
Morris

Tanana before his arm fell off would have to be in there as well.

Tom C
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:54 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,231
Default

Gooden's the only one who was outrageously good for more than a year (and not by much even in his case), so I'd put him first, then Mussina. Everybody else just seems like a regular good pitcher, no one to be particularly anxious about. I'd have Dave Stewart and Dennis Martinez and a dozen other guys like that in the same group, except that a few of them (e.g., Reuschel) sustained that level for long enough that I think they belong in the Hall. Not Jack though. He wasn't the best pitcher of his generation or his time-frame or whatever any more than Dave Stieb was.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:58 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,231
Default

I just found this (text copied below) in an Excel file I created several years ago. I knew I had done something like this at some point but couldn't remember where I'd left it. Anyway, here it is. I'm sure we'll all agree, and there will be no further discussion.


Pitchers better than Jack Morris but not in the Hall
Roger Clemens
Mike Mussina
Jim McCormick
Curt Schilling
Bob Caruthers
Kevin Brown
Charlie Buffinton
Tommy Bond
Rick Reuschel
Roy Halladay
Urban Shocker
Noodles Hahn
Tony Mullane
Luis Tiant
Dave Stieb
Ron Guidry
Frank Tanana
Mel Stottlemyre
Steve Rogers
Tommy John
Larry Jackson
Jerry Koosman
Johan Santana
Bobby Mathews
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 12-14-2017, 09:08 AM
btcarfagno btcarfagno is offline
T0m C@rf@gn0
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 3,252
Default

Kevin Brown was flat out filthy in terms of the quality of his pitches and the outcomes he generated. From 1995-2001 he was unreal. 102-54 1.07 WHIP 2.65 ERA 158 ERA+. At the height of the steroid era. The ball moved around like a whiffle ball every time it left his hand.

Cone was really nasty as well. Not as dominant as Brown but certainly moreso than Morris.

Saberhagen never sustained excellence but never had an ERA+ below 100 in any year where he made 10+ starts. He seemed to alternate ERA+ years of 150 with a 102 then a 110 then a 180. But at his best he was wicked.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:21 AM
the 'stache's Avatar
the 'stache the 'stache is offline
Bill Gregory
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
Posts: 3,915
Default

Well, All Star voting should be something for later in the discussion about determining a player's Hall worthiness, not a baseline for their election. Lots of good players get excluded because they play for teams with smaller voting bases. Likewise, many players get voted in when they don't deserve it based on their reputation and past performance. Robin Yount was only an All Star three times. We're talking about arguably one of the five best shortstops to ever play the game. If he doesn't blow out his shoulder in 1984, there's no argument to even be made that he's not top five. I watched him in his prime, in person, and the guy was a spectacular. Between 1980 and 1984, he was worth 32.0 oWAR, and 7.6 dWAR, and that's with 53 games not played in 1981 because of the player strike. He didn't even get voted to the game in 1989 when he was the American League MVP for the second time--as a center fielder.

I think Trammel deserves it. Absolutely. And, I think Lou Whitaker deserved it long before Jack Morris. I'm sorry, dominant pitcher of his era? A near 4.00 career ERA in an era when scoring was down doesn't cut it for me.

Ted Simmons deserves to be in the Hall. He's a second-tier Hall catcher, in my opinion. My thoughts on his worthiness are summarized here

Dale Murphy? Great player, and in his prime he was one of the elites of the game. I think his later career kills his Hall chances. After 1987, his age 31 year, his career tanked. Still, back-to-back MVP Awards, five Gold Gloves (metrics show these can be debated, however), and four Silver Sluggers warrant consideration. Had a pretty good 1980 season (33 HR, 135 OPS +), and then after a down 1981, Murphy went on a tear. '82-'87, he had a 145 OPS +, scored 660 runs, hit 218 home runs, drove in 629 runs, stole 105 bases, and walked 542 times. Compare that to Mike Schmidt's production at the same time. 216 home runs, and a 152 OPS +.

A 46.2 career WAR is going to hurt Murphy. But how accurate are his defensive metrics? As has been referenced above, I'm finding some inconsistencies in historical dWAR metrics. You're going to tell me that Roberto Clemente in right field was only worth 12.1 dWAR for his eighteen year career, one with twelve Gold Gloves? I think not.

Interesting discussion, guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
Trammel was an all-star six times, never more than twice in a row and finished in the top six for MVP once.

Garvey was an all-star eight years in a row (and was an AS ten times); and finished in the top six for MVP five times (winning it once).

They each won four Gold Gloves.

Garvey was just the more dominant player of his era.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps.

Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:57 AM
DixieBaseball's Avatar
DixieBaseball DixieBaseball is offline
JeR@Me
member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South
Posts: 1,826
Default HOF - Morris

I am good with Morris getting in.... He had longevity at a high level with respect to his peer group in his era.

Multiple year All-Star Pitcher with 175 Complete Games (WOW!), Three 20 Win Seasons, Over 250 Wins, 4 World Series Pitched in, and 1 World Series MVP (10 Shutout innings in Game 7).

Pretty stellar to me. The 175 CG is incredible.
__________________
Collector of Nashville & Southern Memorabilia
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:06 AM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
Pretty stellar to me. The 175 CG is incredible.
Good enough for 180th place on the career leaders list. Zowie!
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:11 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

He only led the league in complete games once, which means other pitchers were more incredible every year except one.
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:23 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Good enough for 180th place on the career leaders list. Zowie!
And since 1979, Morris is number 1. Second is Roger Clemens at 118. So, no other pitchers were any where close to Morris as a pitcher able to finish what he started in the current era.

Last edited by rats60; 12-15-2017 at 11:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:31 AM
Marchillo Marchillo is offline
St3phen M@rchillo
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 693
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Gooden's the only one who was outrageously good for more than a year (and not by much even in his case), so I'd put him first, then Mussina. Everybody else just seems like a regular good pitcher, no one to be particularly anxious about. I'd have Dave Stewart and Dennis Martinez and a dozen other guys like that in the same group, except that a few of them (e.g., Reuschel) sustained that level for long enough that I think they belong in the Hall. Not Jack though. He wasn't the best pitcher of his generation or his time-frame or whatever any more than Dave Stieb was.
What is outrageously good? Saberhagen won 2 Cy Young's and finished 3rd in another year during the "Jack Morris Era".

Not saying Sabs is a hall of famer but I don't take a lot of stock in this claim. He was the one I could easily think of off the top of my head.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:02 PM
h2oya311's Avatar
h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,383
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by btcarfagno View Post
Not surprisingly, Jack Morris' WPA isn't anything special, much like the rest of his body of work. Thus disproving the notion that "he only gave up runs late in games that were blowouts" or "he gave up most of his runs in games where his team scored a lot of runs anyway".

Nope.

WPA values for the players from my list whom I said were better pitchers than Jack Morris:

Mike Mussina 37.67
Kevin Brown 31.63
Bret Saberhagen 25.62
Kevin Appier 23.13
David Cone 23.03
Jimmy Key 22.34
David Wells 20.60
Dwight Gooden 20.19
Dave Stieb 20.11
Frank Viola 17.16
Steve Finley 16.84
Rick Reuschel 15.23
Jack Morris 14.08
Kenny Rogers 11.79
Mark Langston 11.73
Bob Welch 10.31
Frank Tanana 10.07

So Morris is anywhere from somewhat below to way below most of the players on my list when the context of play by play comes into frame.

Still not a Hall Of Famer by any stretch.
I hope you meant Chuck Finley and not Steve Finley in this analysis...although Steve did pitch one inning in his career, and it happened to be for the World Series champion Arizona Diamondbacks in 2001. Perhaps that warrants a 16.84 WPA??
__________________
...
http://imageevent.com/derekgranger

HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 244/342 (71.4%)
1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%)
1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 177/180 (98.3%)
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:47 PM
darwinbulldog's Avatar
darwinbulldog darwinbulldog is offline
Glenn
Glen.n Sch.ey-d
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 3,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marchillo View Post
What is outrageously good?
Having the best pitched season of anyone in the past 100 years. That is outrageously good. If you have a better adverb I'm all ears, but he was historically great at the start of his career, covering a span of 80 starts or so. Bret Saberhagen, who was my favorite pitcher at the time, was quite good but had nothing close to Gooden's peak.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 12-15-2017, 01:26 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 598
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
Well, All Star voting should be something for later in the discussion about determining a player's Hall worthiness, not a baseline for their election. Lots of good players get excluded because they play for teams with smaller voting bases. Likewise, many players get voted in when they don't deserve it based on their reputation and past performance. Robin Yount was only an All Star three times. We're talking about arguably one of the five best shortstops to ever play the game. If he doesn't blow out his shoulder in 1984, there's no argument to even be made that he's not top five. I watched him in his prime, in person, and the guy was a spectacular. Between 1980 and 1984, he was worth 32.0 oWAR, and 7.6 dWAR, and that's with 53 games not played in 1981 because of the player strike. He didn't even get voted to the game in 1989 when he was the American League MVP for the second time--as a center fielder.

I think Trammel deserves it. Absolutely. And, I think Lou Whitaker deserved it long before Jack Morris. I'm sorry, dominant pitcher of his era? A near 4.00 career ERA in an era when scoring was down doesn't cut it for me.

Ted Simmons deserves to be in the Hall. He's a second-tier Hall catcher, in my opinion. My thoughts on his worthiness are summarized here

Dale Murphy? Great player, and in his prime he was one of the elites of the game. I think his later career kills his Hall chances. After 1987, his age 31 year, his career tanked. Still, back-to-back MVP Awards, five Gold Gloves (metrics show these can be debated, however), and four Silver Sluggers warrant consideration. Had a pretty good 1980 season (33 HR, 135 OPS +), and then after a down 1981, Murphy went on a tear. '82-'87, he had a 145 OPS +, scored 660 runs, hit 218 home runs, drove in 629 runs, stole 105 bases, and walked 542 times. Compare that to Mike Schmidt's production at the same time. 216 home runs, and a 152 OPS +.

A 46.2 career WAR is going to hurt Murphy. But how accurate are his defensive metrics? As has been referenced above, I'm finding some inconsistencies in historical dWAR metrics. You're going to tell me that Roberto Clemente in right field was only worth 12.1 dWAR for his eighteen year career, one with twelve Gold Gloves? I think not.

Interesting discussion, guys.
Speaking of defensive WAR, Keith Hernandez had a 0.6 lifetime defensive WAR! Therefore, since I watched him for most of the 1980's and know how he impacted games with his defense, I can definitely conclude that defensive WAR is a VERY inaccurate measurement. Anyone who is considering revising their opinion of a player's value based on dWAR should proceed with caution.
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:03 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,317
Default

I made the same point about Mattingly in another thread. He has 9 gold gloves, was universally thought of as an elite defender, and he has a negative dWAR for his career.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:36 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejharrington View Post
Speaking of defensive WAR, Keith Hernandez had a 0.6 lifetime defensive WAR! Therefore, since I watched him for most of the 1980's and know how he impacted games with his defense, I can definitely conclude that defensive WAR is a VERY inaccurate measurement. Anyone who is considering revising their opinion of a player's value based on dWAR should proceed with caution.
The problem is that they adjust for position. Also, for current players it is calculated differently than for older players. So, when you compare Hernandez to other first basemen from his time frame, it holds up better. You can't compare him to a shortstop like Alan Trammell.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OT: No One Elected to the Hall? Jlighter Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 120 01-10-2013 03:19 PM
Santo elected to HOF Kenny Cole Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 54 12-06-2011 06:11 PM
Pat Gillick Elected bcbgcbrcb Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 24 12-07-2010 04:33 PM
No One Elected Again Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 81 03-09-2007 05:39 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:23 AM.


ebay GSB