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  #1  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:57 AM
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Default I was thinking. and its baffling.

Not my thinking itself being baffling, but the issue.

Now, we all know CC sells fake crap in the autograph world, and lots of it. We know Richard Simon, PSA, JSA and others are opinions that we strongly take as accurate. My question is, how do we REALLY Know anything is a real autograph of someone like Ruth, Foxx, Cobb, Gehrig, etc? I know authenticators use "known exemplars" of good signatures. Other than something being on a legal document, notarized and such (as the old autographs rarely are, how do we REALLY know? I know this is kind of a philsophical issue, but still, sometimes I think about it.

Is it all a matter of trust and good judgment?
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:09 PM
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Scott...I have collected for 25+ years and that is the reason why I never collected autographs. It was a matter of personal choice that I decided that I did not want to have to second guess myself. I am in no way being critical of autograph collectors and I actually had Richard Simon authenticate a Gil Hodges autograph for me. I did not purchase it, it was on a sheet of paper (with other players autographs) that I found in a yearbook I purchased.
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  #3  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:24 PM
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If Financial means allowed, I would love to collect autographs, but yes, that has always bugged me. I guess you just have to put your faith in it, and obviously some people's opinions are much more "gospel", than others. I'm interested in how some who do have autograph collections feel too. Thanks for the reply Jeff.
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  #4  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:48 PM
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I suspect a lot of the exemplars are from contracts and legal documents. I've seen Ruth signed contracts, his driver's license and even a Ruth signature that was notarized. I've seen Rube Marquard's visa and Joe Jackson's signed Last Will and Testament. When these types of items are known to have coe from player's estate or team, then there is some reliability involved.

Also, some official signed documents may be viewable through the military, government or schools. Even if you can't keep the Christy Mathewson signed Army pension document you view at the Army's archive, you might be able to get a photocopy. Perhaps you can visit Columbia University and see if you can obtain a photocopy of a Lou Gehrig's signed college document from when he was a student.

Greta Garbo's is one of the rarest and most desirable Hollywood moviestar signatures. As her estate was officially auctioned off by Christies' and it contained her signed driver's license, it can be said there is a reliable Garbo signature for authentication reference.

Last edited by drc; 06-23-2009 at 01:18 PM.
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  #5  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:53 PM
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If you want to get into it, you can limit your collection to things like Team-signed Balls, Govt. PCs and signed Checks. There are lots of autograph mediums that are safer than single-signed balls and the questionable cut signatures you always see.

Autograph Album sheets are another medium that tends to be more reliable, although I suppose a forger could "add" a few sigs to an existing sheet. Usually, these would stand out like a sore thumb, because of different ink, age, etc. If you are still not comfortable with the authenticity of these safer mediums, its probably best to stick with other areas of collecting.
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  #6  
Old 06-23-2009, 01:15 PM
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I should have included in my response that the only autographs that I collect are on canceled checks, of which I have quite a few. I am picky as I only collect checks with the players name imprinted on it.
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2009, 01:39 PM
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It's kinda like the 3rd test Indiana Jones had to pass in "The Last Crusades". You just gotta have faith.
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:35 PM
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Another thing to consider, research who was around before the money took over autographs. Who showed up after the boom in the early 90's. It's not fullproof, but can help to form an opinion on some.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:59 PM
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-

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  #10  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:22 PM
Robert_Lifson Robert_Lifson is offline
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Dear Net54 Memorabilia Forum,

Reading this thread about autograph authentication, I thought some collectors would appreciate the following essay, which was originally posted on the REA blog on April 24, 2008.

Sincerely,

Robert Lifson

Robert Edward Auctions, LLC


Autographs at REA or any other auction: Is Authenticity Guaranteed?


In a word, the answer is “No.”

What? What do you mean authenticity of autographs is not guaranteed?
What about autographs with third party authentication? What does Third Party authentication mean? Isn’t that supposed to be an absolute 100% guarantee of authenticity for now and forever? If it’s not, what good is it?

Some collectors don’t like the idea of third party authentication - they just don’t believe in it. We’re not sure what they suggest as an alternative other than being or becoming experts themselves, (assuming time, ability, and desire would permit), but that is the point of view of some people, and they are entitled to it. Others have confidence in some authenticators, but not others. Fortunately, there is room for all points of view.

At REA, we utilize the services of James Spence Authentications (JSA) to review all signed items. We think very highly of their service. This doesn’t mean that all other autograph authentication services are not good. This is what we have chosen to do because we believe that JSA offers the best authentication service in the business. That doesn’t mean that they are perfect, that they have never made a mistake, or that their opinion could not change on a given item. Some other services and individuals may be very good at providing authentication services. We find that almost 100% of the time (not 100%, but almost 100%) that if a signed item is consigned to REA with a letter from certain companies (such as PSA) or certain individuals, that JSA has the same opinion. We also find that when items are consigned with letters from certain other individuals and companies, approximately 100% of the time JSA is not OK with these items. Obviously, this is not a coincidence. Statistically, that would be impossible. When a signed item is consigned that is already accompanied by a letter of authenticity, the item and letter are separated by us before being presented to JSA for review. At REA, JSA has no idea if an item has previously been reviewed by any other service before being presented with the item authentication review. We have even had cases (very rare, but it has happened) when JSA has told us they are not comfortable writing a letter on an item previously authenticated by JSA. This is very rare but knowledge increases over time, and opinions can sometimes change over time.

One thing we cannot do, and no else can do either, is guarantee the authenticity of any signature we did not see signed ourselves. What we can guarantee is this: that for every REA auction we have an authentication process that we make very clear, and that we follow this process. This process can change over the years. What we did in 1997 is a little different than what we did in 2007; authenticators change, some have even passed away, but we define what the process is, and follow through with that process for better or worse. In the current auction, each and every signed item was presented for review to James Spence Authentication. This process occurred over the entire year. Most items are reviewed two times, and in many cases items have been reviewed three times. Many items are rejected. In fact, literally hundreds of items were rejected by JSA and returned to would-be consignors which, if authentic, would have been worth hundreds of thousands of dollars (that is not a misprint). It is possible that there were a few items that were rejected by JSA that were in fact authentic. We like to remind people that if in 1927 Babe Ruth were signing an autograph, and someone bumped into him while he was signing and because of this his signature was severely affected and ruined, the resulting signature would not look like other Ruth signatures, even though it is real, and JSA would not write a letter on that particular signature in 2008. It is also possible that JSA (or any authenticator) could render a positive opinion on a signature and be incorrect. No one claims otherwise. That comes with the territory of signature authentication and collecting. Even if JSA (or any authenticator) were to be correct well over 99% of the time, it would not be perfect. Remember: All vintage signatures have one thing in common. We weren’t there when they were signed. That’s just a fact. All we can do is have a process we think is the best and stay true to it. At REA, we do not deviate from this process.

What if a collector does not have confidence in JSA’s opinion, but has confidence in the opinion of another service or individual? We are always happy to go out of our way to work with any authenticator a buyer wants to review any item. We encourage it. If a buyer does not have confidence in any authentication service or any individual to provide authentication on signed items, then it stands to reason that person definitely should not be buying any signed items. Similarly, if a baseball card collector felt he could not tell if an old baseball card was authentic or not authentic, and believed that no one else could make this distinction either, that person should not be buying old baseball cards.

The bottom line is that neither REA or any other auction house or any dealer or any collector can truly “guarantee” that a given autograph is authentic. It can even be difficult to prove with certainty that an autograph is not authentic. Occasionally a signed item can be determined to be not authentic with 100% certainty simply due to a common sense fact (such as a ball that was made in 1950 is “signed” by a ballplayer that died in 1940). Many factors go into the opinions of authenticators, including comparison with exemplars and experience. Sometimes provenance can reflect positively or negatively. If a rare autograph can be traced directly to an unimpeachable source or originates directly from the family of the signer, that is naturally very positive. The flip side is also true: If a seller of a rare autograph claims to have family provenance but evidence suggests that it is not true, and when further questioned the seller pleads “The Fifth,” that is naturally a “red flag”.

We can’t guarantee what any other authenticator would say about any given signed item, and we also can’t provide a warranty on an opinion, but we can guarantee that when preparing the auction, we presented every signed item to JSA for authentication, and only those items approved by James Spence Authentication are presented in the auction. We don’t play what we call the “mix ‘n match” game with authenticated items. Items that were approved by other authenticators, but not by JSA, were rejected and returned to the consignors. Many of these rejected items have been offered at other auction venues.

So where does that leave the collector? Does third party authentication have any value? We think it does, but every collector has to decide for themselves. With some types of signed items, like most checks, for example, the opinion of a third party often has little extra value to collectors, because by nature they are always authentic. But when dealing with some other types of items, like rare cut signatures with no provenance, the buyer is really putting his confidence totally in the hands of the authenticator (or relying on his own expertise or the expertise of his chosen authenticator).

When we hear anyone say they do not believe in the value of any third party authentication, that collectors should only purchase from dealers who “guarantee their items for life,” we do have to wonder how it comes to be that an item is later deemed to be worthy of a refund because of this, because such a determination, by definition, itself must rely on the opinion of a third party. We don’t know how to “guarantee” the authenticity of signatures we have not seen signed ourselves, and no one else can either. We all live in the same world. There is no authenticator alive (or in the past) that has not made a mistake at some time or another, sometimes even a stupid sloppy mistake, like authenticating a preprinted or autopen signature in error. We have seen collectors point to obvious mistakes by third-party authenticators as evidence that none of their opinions have value. We don’t think that is fair but we respect that everyone is entitled to their opinion. We are writers at REA, and we would hate to be judged solely by an occasional typo or text of a rare description that has errors. So what is Third Party authentication when it is true that no authenticator is going to be correct 100% of the time? At REA, it is this: we have chosen what we believe to be the best authentication firm in the world for the type of signed items we offer at auction; we can guarantee that when these signed items were processed for auction, they were carefully examined and deemed in the opinion of JSA to be authentic; and we can guarantee that JSA provided a letter for each lot. That’s what it means. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It is important for collectors to understand what they are bidding on, what guarantees are provided (at REA and elsewhere) and not be under any false impression. Sometimes we are asked, “What if PSA does not like this item, but JSA does? Can I return it?” and we have to answer “No. But you have two options: if you only want to buy signed items authenticated by PSA, why not buy items that have already been authenticated by PSA? Or, we will be happy to work with you with any arrangements you want to allow you to have PSA, or any authenticator of your choice, review any item in the auction for you. This can be done by reviewing photos online, reviewing items in person, or we can even make special arrangements (with expenses paid by you) to send items out. That way you can know what any authenticator of your choice has to say about any item. But we cannot predict what they are going to say about any given item or make any guarantees. That would be impossible, and if we had to do that, then we just could not sell autographed items.”

Important note: This essay has not been written in response to any autograph authentication issue with any item at REA, but these are thoughts that we think have merit, are worth articulating, and that we have not seen presented in this form elsewhere.
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  #11  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:36 AM
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What comes to mind is the episode of King of Queens where the retired dad, Arther Spooner (played by Jerry Stiller), was taking a class to become a notary public. The problem was he was easily distracted by surrounding stimuli (sound of a distant dog barking) and was unable to keep his visual attention on a document being signed two feet in front of him. He finally quit, proclaiming that being a notary public is a "young man's game."

Last edited by drc; 06-24-2009 at 01:51 AM.
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  #12  
Old 06-24-2009, 06:54 AM
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REA, thanks for that blog posting. I kind of figured that was the way it has to be looked at in the overall marketplace, and by major auction houses such as yourself. It seems to just boil down to consumer confidence.

I thank everyone who has replied, as I find this a very interesting area. Due to various reasons, I don't collect much, but love the hobby and such, and always keep up with things too. I enjoy the fact that people care enough about the hobby, as I still call it, and boards like this exist. Again, thanks everyone.

Scott.
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  #13  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:12 AM
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An interesting case in point is this item currently on ebay, w NO bids, that is "PSA authenticated"? Now, Im far far from knowledgable, but this autograph looks terrible, even if hurried, or am I wrong?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-CUT-SI...lenotsupported
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:24 AM
BillyCoxDodgers3B BillyCoxDodgers3B is offline
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It may look strikingly different, but it's perfectly legitimate. Just a rushed version.
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  #15  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for the education.
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  #16  
Old 06-24-2009, 08:51 AM
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Thanks to Rob L, from REA, for the nice summarization on autographs and authenticity. kind regards
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  #17  
Old 06-25-2009, 11:07 AM
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Default signatures change in one sitting

I sometimes write out over 100 checks in one sitting to my officiating staff. My signature changes dramatically from #1 to #100 as my hand gets tired, time becomes an issue, distractions (a Cub victory), etc. It drastically changes from the first check in the pad (with a backing of 29 other checks) to the last check in pad that has relatively no backing. It seems difficult at the very least to think that anyone can say if a signature is real without witnessing it.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrapperguy View Post
I sometimes write out over 100 checks in one sitting to my officiating staff. My signature changes dramatically from #1 to #100 as my hand gets tired, time becomes an issue, distractions (a Cub victory), etc. It drastically changes from the first check in the pad (with a backing of 29 other checks) to the last check in pad that has relatively no backing. It seems difficult at the very least to think that anyone can say if a signature is real without witnessing it.
Although the overall signature may not look the same, there are consistent characteristics that never vary.

It always amuses me that you card guys constantly harp on the "impossibility" of determining an autograph's authenticity, as if the problem exists there and there only.

Every valuable collectible is forged or counterfeited. The skill and resources brought to bear are in direct proportion to the collectible's value.

If you really believe that no extremely high-end card has been successfully counterfeited, you're living in a dreamworld.
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  #19  
Old 06-25-2009, 01:32 PM
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Default There are a couple concepts I would add

1. Provenance is so important -- whether it is a signature on a check or you know the guy who got the signature himself, knowing the history of the signature and how and where it was acquired always improves the value of the autograph. Which brings me to my second point:

2. Value -- the market takes provenance (or the lack thereof) and applies a price to it. A ball signed by Ruth with a video of the ball being signed by Ruth is obviously worth more than the same ball without the video. When you buy an autograph in the market, you are paying a price that factors in known provenance. The better the provenance, the higher the value. Take any price I paid for any of my signed T206 cards -- I would have paid more for them if they had a video accompanying them showing the same card being signed by the player.

I don't think it is much a leap of faith if you are buying and selling in the same universe of accepted authenticators. The game changes if PSA/DNA goes out of business as a result of a massive, public fraud. But the same could be said of PSA and the super minty cards that SGC won't cross over. In that sense, I think of autograph collecting and authenticating a lot like I think about super high grade pre-war collecting -- there is always an element of faith/opinion. And as long as the opinions are generally respected by the collectors in that market, then there is no concern over a super drop or loss of value based on that opinion. But one ought to have more than one base covered -- more than one authenticator/grader -- in the event one has a high dollar item that would be worth sh*t if that particular autheticator/grader went AWOL.

A bit rambling, but there you have it....
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:40 PM
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Default Authenticity

I am not in disagreement with anything Rob wrote, the fact of the matter is it is a "best guess' based on the information/exemplars/etc. that they have at that time. Furthermore calling something a Letter of Authenticity if that is indeed what it is called seems to be a misnomer as well. It is actually a "Today, we think it looks good" letter. It is just part of the leap of faith you take with autograph collecting.

Last edited by HRBAKER; 06-25-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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  #21  
Old 06-25-2009, 02:54 PM
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Default Leaps of Faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
It is just part of the leap of faith you take with autograph collecting.
I just want to try another approach here. I don't think it's a leap of faith, per se, if there is a market for PSA/DNA authenticated autographs.

Put another way -- if 10 people would buy a PSA/DNA autographed Babe Ruth baseball for $1,000, but only 5 people would buy a PSA authenticated Babe Ruth card for $500, then the market for the ball is better and you are more likely -- at least in the short term -- to be able to recover your investment.

That is really how I look at autograph collecting. I am not overly concerned with genuine authentic certainty to 100%. In the end, my opinion of whether a signature is authentic is totally meaningless anyway at the time it comes to part with the item (remember, we're not taking any of this memorabilia with us). As long as there remains a market for what I collect, and I can recoup my investment when its time to sell, then I am quite comfortable collecting autographed items -- signed pre-war cards in particular. PSA/DNA or JSA/BVG basically provide sufficient consumer confidence at this time to make autograph collecting a sustainable pursuit.
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  #22  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
I just want to try another approach here. I don't think it's a leap of faith, per se, if there is a market for PSA/DNA authenticated autographs.

Put another way -- if 10 people would buy a PSA/DNA autographed Babe Ruth baseball for $1,000, but only 5 people would buy a PSA authenticated Babe Ruth card for $500, then the market for the ball is better and you are more likely -- at least in the short term -- to be able to recover your investment.

That is really how I look at autograph collecting. I am not overly concerned with genuine authentic certainty to 100%. In the end, my opinion of whether a signature is authentic is totally meaningless anyway at the time it comes to part with the item (remember, we're not taking any of this memorabilia with us). As long as there remains a market for what I collect, and I can recoup my investment when its time to sell, then I am quite comfortable collecting autographed items -- signed pre-war cards in particular. PSA/DNA or JSA/BVG basically provide sufficient consumer confidence at this time to make autograph collecting a sustainable pursuit.

Are you saying that you really are not concerned if it is real as long as you can get your money back out of it? To follow that line of logic wouldn't one of the major benefits of third party autograph authentication be to make it easier to pass along an auto, real or not? If you did not see it signed but you buy it because based on x, y or z you believe it to be real or at least be sellable/liquid then to me that is a leap of faith. To each his own though.
BTW, I have thousands and thousands of autographs (10,000+) and I have seen only a small portion of them signed personally so I am not coming at this from an uninterested perspective. Autograph authentication seems to be to be a business where you can claim or be regarded as an "expert" but you are really required to have no skin in the game, IOW you are not guaranteeing your expert opinion to be anything other than that, an opinion. Jeff
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  #23  
Old 06-25-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
If you did not see it signed but you buy it because based on x, y or z you believe it to be real or at least be sellable/liquid then to me that is a leap of faith.
I think you're saying it is a leap of faith as to whether the autograph is really an actual autograph -- and with that I agree. I am saying as long as you can get your money back then there really is no risk in taking that leap -- there is a huge safety net protecting you in case your leap makes you fall. And really, the only "fall' would be if the credibility of the opinion took a huge hit in the market. Which is why, as I said above, expensive items ought to be protected by more than one market-accepted opinion.
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Last edited by T206Collector; 06-25-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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