1914 White Sox & Giants @ Vatican POSTCARD - More Player ID's?

[GehrigFan]

This is in regards to the 1914 Chicago White Sox & New York Giants @ Vatican City postcard. I know this has been a popular postcard for awhile, and that Charles Comiskey & John McGraw have been identified, but I thought we might be able to get a few more, thanks to a method I found of using a digital camera with a very high end loupe...

The main question, is: "Could the white haired gentleman actually be Kenesaw Mountain Landis?" It sounded crazy when I first thought that, but I learned that, at this time, he was constantly attending White Sox games, about to manage the Federal League (I just assumed his first baseball position was after the Black Sox scandal). I found references to Landis immersing himself in baseball at this time, probably knowing he would be helping run the Federal League.

[GehrigFan]

Here are the other players - I recognize George Wiltse, Mike Donlin, and of course McGraw & Comiskey.

[bgar3]

Elfers book on the Tour may be helpful. (sorry no longer have it). I believe Speaker and Germany Schaeffer are next to one another, and Jimmy McAleer is at the end of the row in the tan long coat.

[bgar3]

Sorry, I should have added that i do not think that is Landis.

[bgar3]

Weaver top row, top hat, i think.

[btcarfagno]

Sam Crawford next to Wiltse.

Tom C

[bgar3]

Might be Thorpe, second row from top, in top hat, facing sideways.

[GehrigFan]

Wow - good eyes! I can't get to it right now, but I will try to get better images of the Weaver, Thorpe, Crawford, etc. possibilities. I completely overlooked the top hat guy turned to the side, but man, it does appear to be Thorpe.

[71buc]

Ed Walsh?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Ed Walsh?

Hi Mike,
FWIW, I don't believe that this image is Big Ed Walsh.

[Marckus99]

If not Walsh, may be Donlin.

[bgar3]

Man behind Comisky's left shoulder, maybe Ted Sulluvan. Smaller man in glasses on far left looks like sportswriter Abe Yaeger, not sure wether or not he was on trip.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by 71buc

Ed Walsh?

I thought Walsh at first, too, but I think that one is Mike Donlin?

[GehrigFan]

Thorpe

[GehrigFan]

Weaver

[GehrigFan]

Speaker

[GehrigFan]

Ray Schalk?

[GehrigFan]

Rube Marquard? (bottom right)

[btcarfagno]

Don't forget Sam Crawford seated next to Hooks.

Tom C

[bgar3]

On Speaker's left is Schaeffer, I believe. Also pretty sure about Sulluvan.

[FourStrikes]

I'm personally pretty sh!tty on player IDing things, but just wanted to say that's a *great* postcard.

DS

[Dto7]

J. Louis Comiskey son of Charles Comiskey ..3rd from left front row..Would take over the club in 1931.

[Dto7]

Pitcher Red Faber

[Dto7]

Lee Magee on the Giants team for the tour.

[Dto7]

Pitcher Joe Benz

[Dto7]

Jimmy Callahan White Sox manager

[Dto7]

Pitcher Bunny Hearn

[Dto7]

Fred Merkle

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Don't forget Sam Crawford seated next to Hooks.

Tom C

Yes, I agree - sorry, I just forgot to get a new individual closeup of him.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bgar3

On Speaker's left is Schaeffer, I believe. Also pretty sure about Sulluvan.

Thanks! I do think it is Ted Sullivan, as well. At first I thought possibly Billy Sullivan (who may have been on the trip, too), but I think the guy in the pic looks too old, so Ted sounds right.

Forgot about Schaefer. Although I was mostly interested in HOFers or Black Sox, at this point it is just a fun project and I will compile (and post) as complete of a list of everyone (by rows) as possible.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by FourStrikes

I'm personally pretty sh!tty on player IDing things, but just wanted to say that's a *great* postcard.

DS

Ha! Right there with you. Honestly, I was just pulling a few items to sell for bills, and since I had the really nice Regula Ltd Powered Loupe, I thought I'd see if anyone else was on it. As far as I know, only Comiskey and McGraw have ever been identified, probably because you just can't make all the people out without this loupe. But now that the helpful peeps on Net54 have helped identify Weaver, Thorpe, Crawford, Speaker, etc., I really don't want to part with this - LOL!

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Dto7

Fred Merkle

No it's Jim Scott.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Rube Marquard? (bottom right)

No, right of Shafer is Tom Daly

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Ray Schalk?

No, it's Steve Evans.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Thorpe

Not sure who that is but it's not Thorpe.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

If not Walsh, may be Donlin.

It is Donlin, not Walsh.

[bmarlowe1]

Bottom right of bottom photo in post #2 is Jimmy McAleer.

[bmarlowe1]

Just left of the guy who isn't Landis in post #1 is Bill Klem.

[FourStrikes]

Mark: (bmarlowe1) your "talent" is incredible - don't want you looking for/at ME in a lineup!

well done!

DS

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Ha! Right there with you. Honestly, I was just pulling a few items to sell for bills, and since I had the really nice Regula Ltd Powered Loupe, I thought I'd see if anyone else was on it. As far as I know, only Comiskey and McGraw have ever been identified, probably because you just can't make all the people out without this loupe. But now that the helpful peeps on Net54 have helped identify Weaver, Thorpe, Crawford, Speaker, etc., I really don't want to part with this - LOL!

hopefully, should you HAVE to part with it, somebody will send some good $$$ your way.

once again, great piece - while unaware of your immediate financial needs, if faced with a similar dilemma,
I'd personally go out of my way to part with several (or numerous) lower-end items and keep this particular gem!

best of luck.

DS

[bmarlowe1]

Walt Leverenz between Benz and Faber (directly above Bill Klem).

[Dto7]

Hans Lobert

[Dto7]

Jack Bliss

[Dto7]

Could be catcher Andy Slight

[Dto7]

William Buhl a Chicago brewer

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

Not sure who that is but it's not Thorpe.

Curious why you don't think so? Other than Comiskey and McGraw, this is one of the ones I actually feel most confident about.

The photos sure look close to me... Not to stereotype, but the facial features appear most certainly to be Native American, and in particular, Thorpe's eyes, nose, and the large "crease/wrinkle" to the left of his nose are very distinguishable on all the pictures I find from that era. And I am unaware of any other person of Native American descent who could have been on the tour?

[GehrigFan]

Another postcard and composite photo from the same month and year (a mid-Feb. game in Nice, France) identifies Thorpe with the 1913-14 World Baseball Tour team. They arrived in Italy on Feb 7th, and this game in Nce was about one week later, so it would seem highly likely that my postcard was taken just a few days prior to France, at the Vatican, and Thorpe would have been there.

http://www.vintageball.com/1913-14Tour.html

[bmarlowe1]

The ear shape does not match, therefore your guy can't possibly be Thorpe.

I'll add that your guy has a slightly turned up nose - Thorpe does not, and your guy's chin is way too small.

I have never seen an image of Thorpe for which it is not immediately obvious that it's him. Really this is not close.

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Curious why you don't think so? Other than Comiskey and McGraw, this is one of the ones I actually feel most confident about.

The photos sure look close to me... Not to stereotype, but the facial features appear most certainly to be Native American, and in particular, Thorpe's eyes, nose, and the large "crease/wrinkle" to the left of his nose are very distinguishable on all the pictures I find from that era. And I am unaware of any other person of Native American descent who could have been on the tour?

while it's certainly "Thorp(e)ian" at first glance, I'd personally defer to BMarlowe1's knowledge...

JMO.

DS

[Dto7]

Frank McGlynn Sr. was an actor and was on the trip.