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  #191  
Old 08-10-2017, 12:52 PM
Thromdog Thromdog is offline
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Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

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  #192  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:31 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Hi Jeff

1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......

Cards ..... Series

..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only

2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.

3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?

4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.

Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).

My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.

But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

Thanks again.


TED Z
.
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  #193  
Old 08-10-2017, 09:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thromdog View Post
Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Hey Jeff

1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.

2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.

Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.

So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?


TED Z
.
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  #194  
Old 08-11-2017, 07:31 AM
Thromdog Thromdog is offline
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I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.
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  #195  
Old 08-11-2017, 10:07 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thromdog View Post
I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

My theory regarding the timeline when the 350/460 subjects were printed with EPDG backs coincides with the Sovereign "apple green" print run (shown here is my simulated
Sovereign sheet)....circa Spring - Summer 1910.

I base this on the following evidence......

Joe Doyle retires from Major League BB June 25, 1910

Simon Nicholls retires from Major League BB April 19, 1910

Red Kleinow traded to Boston May 26, 1910

Frank Smith traded to Boston Aug 11, 1910 [F. Smith(Chicago & Boston) is an EPDG No-Print]

I have removed Red Kleinow (Boston) from my list.

Therefore, the grand total (to date) of EPDG = 284 subjects.












TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-11-2017 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #196  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


Continuing from Post # 181 ......

In anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1911, American Lithographic modified their SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards
(initial press run) by stamping them with Factory #42 overprints. This was done since the SWEET CAP cigarettes production was being transferred to the Durham, NC plant
of Liggett & Myers.

Factory #42 Durham, NC




Anyhow, after ATC's divesture was resolved by the Federal Courts (circa..Summer 1911), and the "smoke had finally cleared", ATC had retained SWEET CAPORAL production.
Therefore, all this "overprinting" of 109 -T206 subjects was really unnecessary. Listed below are the 109 subjects that were overprinted.

Check-out the Federal Court's decree break-down (circa 1911)......

American Tobacco Company divestiture

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima....only 15 Turkish blends
and the cheap straight domestic brands.


P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco retained 37 % of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall....its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street
in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.


R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 % of the plug trade.



SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #42 overprint......109 subjects

350/460 series................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)

Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

460-only Series................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell

Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


. .


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-20-2017 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #197  
Old 08-19-2017, 05:37 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Double post.

Last edited by tedzan; 09-13-2017 at 11:23 PM.
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  #198  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default Regional source of the Elite 11 cards......

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


We have been on vacation visiting our Daughter and Grandson in Maine. I just noticed Turner's thread.... Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's.
Thanks, Turner for posting this thread and all those great images.

This is a significant find. It's the 4th discovery in the surrounding area of Atlanta of an original collection of T206's that include the rare T206's that we refer to as the Elite 11 cards.

Approx. 9 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly
PIEDMONT cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

Very recently, another original collection of T206's (all PIEDMONT's) was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 of the Elite 11 cards.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180 for more info.

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this because some Joe Doyle Nat'l cards have been
found in T206 collections originating in Georgia. The best example being Senator Richard Russell's original T206 collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. This set
also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'l card. Russell lived in Winder, Georgia (not far from Atlanta), and he collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.


Elite 11....plus Lundgren





Although Lundgren (Cubs) was not printed with HINDU, SOVEREIGN, nor SWEET CAPORAL....this card is very similar to the ELITE 11
with respect to the initial 350 press runs of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs. Therefore, I have included Lundgren in with this group.


Note The Schulte card has not yet been found with an EPDG back.


Hey guys,
I'm open to hearing of any other regions in the country where these Elite 11 cards have been discovered. Please chime in with your information.


TED Z
.
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  #199  
Old 08-26-2017, 10:33 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is online now
P@trick R.omolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
.
Hi Ted,

PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?by...f=0#NoPrintPop


img340 - Copy.jpg
Conroy (bat) Group.jpgConroy (bat) Back Group.jpg
Lake (no ball) Group_.jpgLake (no ball) Back Group_.jpg
Leach [1].jpgLeach Back [1].jpg
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  #200  
Old 08-28-2017, 09:33 PM
Ronnie73 Ronnie73 is offline
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Here is a front/back scan of the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print". I personally own this card along with the other 27 "No Print" cards. This 28 card "No Print" set follows Ted's "Group B" list exactly!!!
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