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  #191  
Old 08-10-2017, 11:52 AM
Thromdog Thromdog is offline
J3ff
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Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Back to the players themselves.

Of the 284 subjects from your list, all but 3 have graded examples in the SGC and PSA pop charts. They are Hunky Shaw, Jim Pastorius, and Ed Willett. For the rest of the subjects, they have a minimum of 3 graded examples. My first instinct is to say they don't exist, but I've been proven wrong in the past. I would love to see an example of these guys, so if anyone has one, lets see them!

I'd also point out the uniqueness of the Elite 11 with EPDG backs which is a fun subject. After having collected EPDGs for the last few years, I would say they are not any tougher to find than a regular EPDG, with a few exceptions. As an example, I've owned 4 different Tom Jones EPDG cards.

Knowing the difficulty finding these subjects with Piedmont 350 backs, I support a theory that the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's. Pat R, who is awesome, had a great thread about this using print defects in comparing 150/350 subjects.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

I haven't updated my collage in a while, but I'm sitting at 223 unique EPDG's at this point. Here's my first 214.

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  #192  
Old 08-10-2017, 01:31 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Hi Jeff

1st....the grand total of 285 confirmed EPDG subjects is correct......

Cards ..... Series

..83 ........ 150/350
102 ........ 350-only
...6 ......... Super-Prints
..57 ........ 350/460 [if Kleinow (Boston) exists with EPDG)]
..37 ........ 460-only

2nd....I left out Howell in the 460-only series list. Just a hasty typing mistake. This has been corrected.

3rd....There is a question regarding Kleinow (Boston). I have heard this combo exists; however, others say it is a No-Print. What say you ?

4th....I really like your array of EPDG cards, thanks for posting it.

Pastorius, Shaw, and Willett are on my confirmed list (and also on t206 resource's list).

My experience with collecting the Elite 11 regarding both their PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs varies all over the place.

But, Lundgren (Cubs) is definitely a "toughie" with PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG backs.

Thanks again.


TED Z
.
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  #193  
Old 08-10-2017, 08:35 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thromdog View Post
Thanks for putting this back on the map......I have a couple of edits for you.

1. Your 460-only Series says 37 subjects, but only 36 are listed. Harry Howell hands at waist is missing from your list.
2. Steinfeldt portrait is in the 150/350 series and you have him listed in both the 150/350 series and the 350/460 series. So I think your count for the 350/460 series should be 56 subjects, not 57.
3. So the total number of subjects from your list would be 284 instead of 285.

Hey Jeff

1....My 460-only list is correct with 37 subjects. I inadvertently omitted Howell. He is included in this list.

2....Steinfeldt (portrait) in the 350/460 series list was a typo error, which I have removed. It should have been Steinfeldt (bat). This has been corrected.

Therefore, 57 subjects are correct if you accept Kleinow (Boston) as valid. I have some doubts that this subject exists with an EPDG back.

So, I am asking you again....if you know that this front/back combo exists ? ?


TED Z
.
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  #194  
Old 08-11-2017, 06:31 AM
Thromdog Thromdog is offline
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I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.
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  #195  
Old 08-11-2017, 09:07 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thromdog View Post
I forgot that you have Kleinow Boston in the 350/460 batch due to the Drum 350 find. That was throwing me for a loop in this.

In the simplest terms, I find it unlikely due to the lack of proof that any have been seen or graded. I know that sounds weak but that's the only true real evidence we can go with.

Do we have an idea of when the 460 print runs occurred or the order in which they occurred? If the EPDG print run was early, I could see a scenario where it's possible.....namely the intent to keep the Kleinow NY catching as part of the 460 and then switch over to Boston when the trade occurred, all while the EPDG were being printed for the 460's.

My theory regarding the timeline when the 350/460 subjects were printed with EPDG backs coincides with the Sovereign "apple green" print run (shown here is my simulated
Sovereign sheet)....circa Spring - Summer 1910.

I base this on the following evidence......

Joe Doyle retires from Major League BB June 25, 1910

Simon Nicholls retires from Major League BB April 19, 1910

Red Kleinow traded to Boston May 26, 1910

Frank Smith traded to Boston Aug 11, 1910 [F. Smith(Chicago & Boston) is an EPDG No-Print]

I have removed Red Kleinow (Boston) from my list.

Therefore, the grand total (to date) of EPDG = 284 subjects.












TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-11-2017 at 10:06 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #196  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:06 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



350/460 series subjects


Continuing from Post # 181 ......

In anticipation of the impending divestiture of the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) in 1911, American Lithographic modified their SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #30 cards
(initial press run) by stamping them with Factory #42 overprints. This was done since the SWEET CAP cigarettes production was being transferred to the Durham, NC plant
of Liggett & Myers.

Factory #42 Durham, NC




Anyhow, after ATC's divesture was resolved by the Federal Courts (circa..Summer 1911), and the "smoke had finally cleared", ATC had retained SWEET CAPORAL production.
Therefore, all this "overprinting" of 109 -T206 subjects was really unnecessary. Listed below are the 109 subjects that were overprinted.

Check-out the Federal Court's decree break-down (circa 1911)......

American Tobacco Company divestiture

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 % of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima....only 15 Turkish blends
and the cheap straight domestic brands.


P. Lorillard received 15 % of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands


American Tobacco retained 37 % of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall....its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street
in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.


R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 % of the plug trade.



SWEET CAP 350-460, Factory #42 overprint......109 subjects

350/460 series................57 subjects

Ames (hands over head)
Baker
Bender (no trees)
Berger
Bradley (bat)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
George Davis (Chicago)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)

Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake, St. Louis (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifeld (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (bat)
Murphy (bat)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)

Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Jeff Sweeney
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right)
Doc White (Chicago-pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (throwing)
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)
CYoung (glove)

Six Super-Prints

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)

460-only Series................46 subjects

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (pitching)
Bescher (arms above)
Bergen (catching)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arms at side)
Camnitz (arms up)
Chance (bat)
Chase (trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands at waist)
Hummell

Lake (with ball)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schulte (back view)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

H. Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


. .


TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; Yesterday at 09:18 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #197  
Old 08-19-2017, 04:37 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 6,257
Default INDEX to this T206 Reference thread's posts and story's

T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. . .



Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood, etc. missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards


I completely understand that a lot of the T206 "nitty-gritty" stuff presented here is quite complicated. Well, don't be shy about asking questions.
Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to answer your questions.


TED Z
.
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