O'Hara & Demmit St. L

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

I think it is a conflict of interest when a grading company sells cards. either way these 2 cards look trimmed to me. What do you think?

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric

I think the O'Hara is fine. Looks to have a slight diamond cut.

The Demmitt on the other hand, definitely looks trimmed IMO.

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug

I was going to say the same thing, but after looking closer the left edge on that O'hara looks slightly uneven to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff S.

The numbers on the flip are close, so they appear to be from the same owner.

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

at the risk of sounding like an idiot, when did beckett start selling cards?
and where do they sell them?

[Archive]

Posted By: samuel

I think they sell cards on the website.

I agree with the first post.

edit: first reply

[Archive]

Posted By: andy becker

i know that they have an interactive website that dealers (and collectors, i think) can use to sell cards. however, i did not know that they had cards on that site that they actually own.

bobby or others, how do we know the cards posted are owned by beckett?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

They are now on eBay being sold by Beckettmedia. There are a few more that are questionable if you ask me.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

You can sell cards, or you can grade cards, but you can't do both.

Clear conflict of interest.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric

Barry said it perfectly.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

....two creases in the O'Hara -- how is that a 4?!

The bottom edge on O'Hara makes me a little nervous; the right edge on the Demmitt makes me very nervous.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I wonder if those are misgraded cards from the Beckett find that REA passed on in their last auction. It's got me wondering about the one I won.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Bobby, I'm in a big bunch of agreement with you.

Demmitt appears trimmed to me. O'Hara does too, to a lesser extent. And Beckett shouldn't be grading and selling both. So Amen, brother Bobby!


I do think that if I have an old T205 I'm about to sell, I could put it on eBay and proclaim that it is about VG. I've then graded a card that I own, and that I plan to sell. And I think that's ok...

The distinction is that what we look for from a 3rd party professional grade is multi-fold, and one of those things is that they'll be a 3rd party. It is crap for them to grade it then sell it. If they're going to be doing 3rd party grading they should not be buying and selling. It's such an obvious screwup that it makes me wonder when PSA will do it, or when everyone who collects slabbed cards will start expecting to get their cards from the slabbers, or when folks will back off on collecting slabbed cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ben

My understanding of the BeckettMedia name on eBay is that you can consign your cards to Beckett to sell under their name for a fee. They don't own the cards, but use their name on the auctions for marketing purposes (and obviously you pay for that). You used to not see as much BVG being pushed by them, mostly newer high-dollar cut autos and hair card garbage. But with Beckett pushing more and more BVG, I guess you'll start to see more of it.

Personally, I still think it's a bad idea. Even if they don't own it, they are still profiting off an item they graded, giving them the incentive to grade it higher. Which, at best, gives the appearance of impropriety. Though Beckett has made it repeatedly clear recently with all they've done on their website that they really don't care what anyone has to say.

(I usually just read your fantastic site but thought I'd chime in here to help clear this up.)

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

The concept behind grading I thought was to have a disinterested third party opine as to a card's condition and authenticity. Clearly there will be a preception this may not be happening if the grading company is also the seller. In the case at hand, yes it's possible Beckett graded the cards when they did not own them; so they were disinterested when they assigned the cards a grade. But who knows? If I were them, I would find it in my economic interest to have the cards crossed over by either SGC or PSA, for the sole reason of eliminating any perception among potential buyers that the grades were not impartially assigned.

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Corey,

I can't see Beckett using other graders... that would be like a GM exec driving a Ford.

What they need to do is grade cards only... or, if they want to sell cards, no matter who owns them, then they need to quit grading.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

For full disclosure the Beckett guys are friends of mine and advertisers here (so far )....

I also think it is a very slippery slope when a grading company is selling cards in their own holders. IF, and I will go with what Ben says from above, they are truly consignments then that needs to be the first thing in the descriptions, imo. I remember buying my (once owned) SGC92 Buchner Gold Coin Kelly, from one of the old Collectors Universe Auctions....It was doubly dubious as they owned PSA, were running their own auctions, and my card was graded by another company when I bought it from them. They long ago quit doing their own auctions....and I thought that was the right move for them.

I think an analogy might be the authenticating of memorabilia with a COA, by the person that is selling it....Full disclosure, up front, is at least mandatory, imho.....

This is a very slippery slope for my Beckett friends....I hope they will tweak what they are doing. As for their website....I will let others opine on that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Anderson

Beckett Select Auctions and Beckett Grading are separate and distinct, but I will answer to the best of my knowledge:

* The cards for sale on our website are from dealers. Some members of this board may be some of these dealers. We are simply a portal through which we link you up with hundreds of dealers, and help oversee each transaction so it is not every man for himself like ebay.

* These cards are consignments for our auction service, which is part of Marketplace. Beckett Select is a service to help people sell their cards, and the placement of them can be in a major auction house (such as the Wagner), eBay, etc., based on where they should garner the most interest and money for the consignor. I will mention to the auction department that they might want to state up front that the cards are on consignment. I just figured that was assumed as it is the way we have done things since first starting Beckett.com's marketplace over a decade ago.

* As with the Wagner collection, it is a case where people came to us and requested Beckett's help in selling off a collection that was inherited. Interestingly, the entire collection consists of Polar Bear backs. With the interested generated by the Wagner collection, we now have people contacting us on a regular basis with collections and finds that are new to the hobby. Let's be honest - no matter what your feelings on grading in general, or BVG specifically, no one can argue that the BVG 1 Wagner sale through REA was shocking. It didn't just eclipse the previous record - it destroyed all previous sales in that grade, as well as the SGC 10 example sold about the same time. This was not random - we marketed the card extremely well. If you were an owner of a collection, would that not get your attention?

* No, neither card is trimmed and if nothing else, this thread has taught me to be less quick to judge a card based on a scan in the future. You cannot grade or detect all tampering on a card based on a picture.

* I have put great effort the past year into building the BVG brand. I'm not the brightest bulb in the lamp, but why would I risk destroying that so our auction department can make a couple hundred dollars? The feedback we received on the Wagner collection (550 cards, not just Wagner) was that we were conservative, if anything, on both the grades and the authentication. Several cards were obviously cut from sheets, and while some in the hobby are fine with those cards receiving grades, we actually slabbed all of those cards as Authentic-Altered. The fact is, if we are asked to authenticate and help facilitate a sale on a collection, we will be extremely sensitive to the extra scrutiny that those cards will receive.

I'm always willing to respond to questions if people just ask.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

Mark,

Appreciate you saying something but to me it is still a crime for you to be selling cards under the Beckett brand. It would just be as easy for you to direct these people to use one of several reputable and established eBay sellers or auction houses. Sorry but there is no excuse.

I get people wanting to sell me cards or sell for them all the time at VCP and feel it would be a conflict. So we direct them to the right place to get treated fairly and get the most for their cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

Mark,

Thank you for posting your comments on Net54. It is much appreciated. You said, "this thread has taught me to be less quick to judge a card based on a scan in the future." Putting aside the trim issue, can you verify what I see in the O'Hara scan as at least having two creases? If so, is it consistent with BVG's grading standards to grade a T206 card with 2 creases as VG-EX 4?

Thanks again,

Paul

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Anderson

Bobby - are you saying VCP gets no financial gain from advertising on your home page to direct consignors to your partner, Just Collect, to sell their vintage graded cards?

If you get nothing in return, then your point may be valid. If not, would you not consider yourself to be in violation of a conflict of interest by selling pricing information on vintage graded cards and then also earned a commission by selling the same vintage graded cards?

In addition, would it not be questionable for an 'unbiased price guide' to post inflammatory and opinionated remarks about a current auction that could directly interfere with the realized price (based on your opinions of a card you have never seen in person), and will then be taken into account in your pricing? It undermines Beckett as a competitor to your price guide, as a competitor to your auction partner, and potentially undermines the valuation of two very key BVG cards, does it not? Let's be fair here.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Paul dead on the O'hara has two really nice creases in the lower right no way that card is a 4, and I still raise an eybrow on the Demmitt seen a lot of these 2 over the years never seen a Demmitt that slim....unless the Stl Demmitt came with American Beauty as well...LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Thanks for clarifying that the cards being auctioned on ebay, by Beckettmedia (though I am not familiar with the specific auctions) are indeed owned by consignors. Not that it matters too much but I don't have an issue with that......take care

ps....lets be careful of being anonymous in this thread....no worries yet....just a friendly reminder

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Anderson

Hi Paul,

Given the strength of the rest of the card (the centering is fairly nice, the corners and edges very solid, along with the great color of the surface and lack of tobacco stains on a Polar Bear), the two creases could be considered hairline creases, as allowed under our 4.0 guidelines.

I'd love to hear feedback from members of this forum, though - would you consider these grades to be in line with VG-EX cards or not? Let me know your reasons why? I would really be interested in any feedback.

Thanks,
Mark

(Leaving for the day - may not be able to post until Monday.)

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

those cards are nice...but clearly trimmed in my opinion. the corner wear is not even...the borders are narrow...uneven cut...but not diamond cut I don't think.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed Hans

Mark,
I have to disagree strongly with you on a few counts. I think those pictures make it very clear that at least the Demmitt (and probably the O'Hara as well) are trimmed. Secondly, no card, regardless of the excellent visual appeal, or any other characteristics, with two creases should be graded vg/ex.

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Diamond Cut or trimmed.. eeesh..  I don't have any Beckett Graded Pre War cards and this doesn't help their case with me either..

martyOgelvie

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Levy

I own cards graded by PSA, SGC, and BVG as I suppose many people do. Prior to this post, I had viewed SGC and BVG to be consistently conservative, PSA a bit less so, but still very much in the same ballpark.

IMO the grades offered to the Demmitt and O'Hara are not consistent with industry established (perhaps not Beckett) guidelines. Specifically, any paper loss no matter how minor on the front or back of a card typically drops that card to a '2'. While I don't necessarily agree with this guideline, any card which I have owned, no matter how sharp, has suffered this fate. Therefore, the paper loss on the Demmitt, if we are following industry wide standards, should result in a similar grade.

My personal belief is that 4s should generally be crease free unless there is a single very minor crease. I know that I am more harsh than the industry standard on this one....so let's take the industry standard viewpoint. but most cards that are graded 4s by PSA, SGC and GAI have

PSA VG-EX 4: Very Good-Excellent. "...A light crease may be visible."
SGC 50/4 "Light hairline crease may show on one or both sides."
GAI 4 "Global VG-EX (4)"...a light crease"

This contrasts with the "3" grade in which it is explained that multiple or more significant creasing may be present.

So let's assume that both cards are untrimmed, seems to me that the Demmitt ought to grade a '2' (although it is a great example of one) and the O'Hara ought to grade a '3'

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Based on the fronts of the cards only I would grade the O'Hara a VG 3 and assign an Authentic grade to the Demmitt. No way those borders, particularly right and bottom, are original.

If these are representative of BVG graded vintage cards, this is not good PR for the company.

[Archive]

Posted By: david

being a portal for a consignor does not eliminate the inherit conflict of interest. i assume the amount of money that becket media makes during the transaction is relative to the final selling price. as a result there is incentive to grade a card higher and have it sell for a higher price. also, when the card is submitted there is a check box that states the card will be consigned to becket media auctions,correct? and if you can not tell an obvious trim from a scan perhaps you should not be grading cards in person either. many people on this board lost all respect for becket the way they handled the rebacked cobb. over grading and mis-grading cards along with a conflict on interest doesnt help their rep.

[Archive]

Posted By: Craig W

I don't think it helps Beckett's Grading or Consigning cause much when they mis-slab and incorrectly list a Davy Jones as a Fielder Jones. Fielder Jones played for the White Sox and cannot be found with a Polar Bear back since both his cards are 150/350 Series

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-FIELDER-JONES-Portrait-Polar-Bear-Back-BVG-6_W0QQitemZ360092341764QQihZ023QQcategoryZ86837QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Levy

Curious to see what Mark A. thinks about our feedback ...

The one thing that doesn't really make sense to me is that Demmitt certainly looks trimmed....but why would someone trim just that one card?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

That is not the only card trimmed. Check beckettmedia auctions on eBay and they have a lot of T206's all PB's with a lot of them trimmed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Anderson

Hi Scott - Yes, I've been tracking the feedback and taking it into consideration. We want to be consistent with the industry and will look into the crease issues. If anyone is bored and wants a larger sampling, you can view scans of most of the original T206 Wagner lot at www.beckett.com/t206 and give me feedback on a wider group of samples. On the small bit of paper loss, I agree with you that we typically hit that harder - we gave a little leeway on the Polar Bear cards due to the nature of their distribution and the common problem of having specks of tobacco (or paper loss from the tobacco). Would most people prefer these not receive any wiggle room in that regard? How would you treat cards with the specks of tobacco still adhered (without paper loss)? Thank you for your thoughts on these.

David - Regarding the re-backed Cobb, we bought the card back and removed it from the hobby. We made a mistake and we owned up to it. I'm not sure what more you would require us to do to earn the board's respect for how we handled it?

Craig - The Jones label has been fixed. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

Bobby - You provide a good service that I happen to find useful and interesting, and I wish you continued success with it, but your posts show an obvious personal bias (against someone who just happens to compete with your product) that I find disappointing from a business that seeks to be an unbiased price guide. Regardless, best wishes with VCP.


All - Regarding trimming, perhaps if the cards were cut down on four sides, graded an 8, and bought by Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall, they'd receive a warmer welcome Just kidding... Seriously, though, we stand by the authentication of these cards and if any of you in the Dallas area want to swing by the office and look at them in person, let me know. Obviously, there is not going to be a consensus on this issue and we can go back and forth all day on it. As has been mentioned, why would we risk horrible PR by slabbing trimmed examples of 2 high profile cards and tear down the work we've been putting into building the BVG brand? We greatly appreciate the wisdom and knowledge of the members of this board and while it isn't always fun to be on the bottom of the dog-pile, we really do use your comments and criticisms to make changes and improvements.

Thanks again,
Mark

[Archive]

Posted By: Craig W

Mark,

Yesterday or the day before, the starting bids for the Demmitt & O'Hara were increased from $1,999 to $2,999. It seems a bit strange to increase starting bids by 50% when they had gone five days without receiving a bid. Now, this afternoon, all the PB T206's that Beckettmedia had listed on ebay are gone, and I don't think the auctions were supposed to end 'til sunday evening. Can you tell us what's going on, please? There were several I had planned to bid on for the All Polar Bear subset I'm working on and I'm a bit disappointed.

Regards,
Craig

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Levy

Mark,

I know that it's tough to be in a position of having to try to establish yourself as a credible brand in the face of two "majors". IMO the best way to do that is to very strictly adhere to industry standards. If I was a grading company and had to choose between two grades, I'd rather be known for my toughness - even though it does make it harder to get the submissions, at least it builds trust.

I have looked at a few more BVG PB cards and didn't seem to notice any obvious trimming on them. The only reason that I brought it up in the first place is that it does seem odd to trim just a single card -- but I can't imagine the Demmitt being that short or thin. This one is probably for the board -- T205s have occasionally been short without being trimmed, is their a chance that Demmitt could just be a quirky factory miscut? In either case, I'd recommend that BVG simply re-evaluate that card just to be sure.

I personally thought the BVG handled the rebacked Cobb issue very well. Someone (who shall remain nameless) intentionally and fraudulently created these cards and BVG dug into their own pockets to clean up the mess with little resistance. This is a different philosophy from at least one of the "majors" and ought to be commended.

Finally, I commend anyone who jumps into this tough crowd, asks questions to which they may not like the answers and at least considers the advice given.

Regards,
Scott

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Fandango

a couple thoughts...

VCP is not a "price guide" in the beckett sense.....its not the collective OPINIONS of many dealers, its the EXACT TRANSACTION THAT TAKES PLACE, with no opinions involved...MARK, so i dont see how you relate a conflict of interest with VCP.....

secondly....there may be a reason the HUGELY IMPORTANT WAGNER FIND was sent to Beckett and not to PSA and SGC.....

signed, an ex beckett collector....

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...in this race, but VCP and Beckett price guides are certainly competing for the same card price evaluation dollar, even if they go about it in different ways.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: Bobby Binder

Mark,

I never questioned or said anything about your price guides.

I always thought in the past that your company was a very reliable and strict grader. I am now questioning that because I think as do a few members of this board that some of those T206's are in fact trimmed. I am not a grading service and never plan to be.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

This week, Beckett Media found itself in a minor policy dispute with eBay. This resulted in our auction listings being removed temporarily. We will not comment on the nature of this disagreement, but we will confirm that our listings will return once we get them all rescheduled. We can assure you that none of the T205 and T206 auctions were at issue. Those will all be re-listed in full, exactly as they were.
Until then, if you have questions about any of those cards, or want to stop by to see them in person, please contact me directly. We understand the scans may give the cards an odd look. But grading is 100% certain these are original cuts, not trimmed. Dsliepka@beckett.com

Thank you. www.Beckett.com/Select

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Levy

Given that Beckett is grading and selling graded cards, do they have a policy on whether or not Beckett's employees/management can also bid on these cards?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Guys,
I tend to agree with Scott... This is not unusual as I respect his opinion, and I consider him a good friend. I think Paul said earlier: I don't have a dog in this fight, but the O'Hara with 2 creases is a 3 at best and the Demmitt does look a bit tight. I'm not going to pass judgment on BVG on the basis of these 2 cards, as I thought they graded the Wagner collection quite well, but a red flag is waived.

Be well to all Brian


PS I think more quality grading companies is good for the hobby, so I don't take any pleasure pointing these issues out.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Anderson

>Given that Beckett is grading and selling graded cards, do they have a policy on whether or not >Beckett's employees/management can also bid on these cards?

Scott, yes. Although we encourage employees to be collectors, we have very strict rules in place regarding what may or may not be bought and sold, and BGS/BVG graded cards are on the top of that list.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

I have not looked at the site, but if Becket is grading cards for consignors and then making a commission on the final sale prices handled through their website, there is a conflict of interest. They would stand to profit by inflating grades. Maybe they are completely honest and graders have no idea who submits the cards or what happens to them afterwards, but in a hobby with so many shady characters out to make an extra buck, the appearance of impropriety alone is enough to keep me away.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: traderDon

edited due to anonymity. I would have emailed you but you have no email. I am not saying I disagree with what you are saying, or that most others would either, but you really need to put your name and email (link) out here to have this strong of an opinion. Nothing personal, it's the rules....regards (leon aka moderator/opinionator )

[Archive]

Posted By: david

beckett made good on the cobb? after how many years of denying the card was a fake?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1101437723/last-1101504550/well%2C+I+don%27t+know

[Archive]

Posted By: boxingcardman

I do not see a conflict per se between doing a price guide for cards and selling cards so long as the prices are REAL prices and not ranges. Take out the subjectivity, as I did with my boxing guide, and there is no way to manipulate the data to favor your sales.

I do not see a conflict per se between grading cards and doing a price guide for cards. I kind of wish SCD had stayed in the grading business (and severed its ties with its shadier advertiser, for that matter) because I thought it had a good product and a good trade name at the time. Similarly, I think Beckett could do quite well with its brand offering grading services.

I do not see a conflict per se between grading cards and selling cards unless the cards are submitted for grading and selling together. If Beckett sold an SGC-graded card, for example, where's the problem?

I see a HUGE conflict in grading cards that have been submitted for selling, the obvious incentive being to overgrade the cards, even mildly, to generate much more money. Sorry, Mark, but while Beckett might not mess with its rep for a few hundred bucks on these two cards, when you are talking thousands of cards and potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars if every consigned card is given a little nudge, you have a big incentive to cheat and a huge appearance of impropriety to deal with. I have several Beckett graded cards and I am satisfied with the product, although a little miffed at the strictness of the grades. I have to wonder if they'd have gotten bumps if I'd simultaneously consigned them for sale. If I have to wonder about that, you have a problem.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

I don't know what your dispute was with eBay, but I was watching several lots and I had placed bids on others. I wasn't pleased when they disappeared. I wonder how many people will bid again on these lots after the auctions were cancelled?

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I seldom like to give an opinion of advertisers as there is at least the perception of a biasness. That being said the thread that David (hi David) pulled up from 4 yrs ago had some harsh words from me concerning Beckett. At the time I meant every word I said. That being said, fast forward several years, and the management at the top has changed. The President, at the time the original (rebacked) Red Cobb Drum back was on ebay, is no longer there. Recently they bought, I believe, the same card back. To me that is a philosophical change and I am appreciative of that and have obviously changed my view completely on that subject. So, I applaud Beckett for recently buying that card to get it out of circulation. ..regards