T206 question

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Posted By: cn

I know this topic has probably been mentioned before but I was just wondering after the big 4 what are the 10 rarest cards in order. I have heard different opinions over the years and have read Heitman's Monster and still don't have the answer if there is a definitive one. I would appreciate if I could get opinions on this. CN

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Posted By: Henry

ummm dont know order but all the cobbs, O'hara St Louis, Elberfield Wash. Portrait, Yong Portrait, Johnson Portrait, and Mathewson Portrait would probably be in there.

Thanks, Henry Eshelman

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Posted By: Anonymous

All the Cobbs? There's two or three Red Ports a week on Ebay!

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Posted By: scot reader

Here are my top 80 or so in scarcity order based on my own survey data: [excluding Cobb (Cobb Back)]:

Doyle (N.Y. Nat'l), Wagner (Pittsburg), Plank, Magie, O'Hara (St. Louis), Demmmitt (St. Louis), Foster, Thornton, Fritz, B. Hart, Greminger, Lafitte, Paige, Revelle, Ellam, Guiheen, Violat, A. O. Jordan, Breitenstein, Hooker, Manion, Reagan, S. Smith, Elberfeld (Washington), Bernhard, Clancy, Dahlen (Brooklyn), J. Hart, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), O'Neil, Stark, Carey, Coles, Kiernan, McCauley, Mullaney, Otey, Cranston, Helm, Lipe, Ryan, Seitz, Schlafly, Bay, Downs, Hickman, F. Mitchell (Toronto), L. Doyle (Throwing), Malarkey, Schlei (Portrait), Shaughnessy, Thielman, G. Brown (Washington),
Covaleski, Ganley, E. Howard, Lobert, McElveen, Merkle (Portrait), Phelan, Snodgrass (Batting), Adkins, Bastian, LaPorte, Lundgren (Chicago), Molesworth, H. Moran (Providence), McLean, Puttman, Rhoades (Right Arm Out),
Rockenfeld, A. Shaw (St. Louis), H. Shaw (Providence), Sheckard (Glove Shows), F. Smith (White Cap), Wiltse (Portrait w/Cap), Zimmerman

If you look at the PSA pop report you also have to include Ames (Hands at Chest), Doyle (N.Y.), Konetchy (Glove High), Magee (Portrait), Nichols (With Bat) and Schulte (Front View) somewhere in the mix. Traditionalists will also insist on Smith (Chicago and Boston) and Kleinow (Boston).

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Posted By: JimB

I think the Cobb red portrait is probably one of the most common T206s, probably because people saved their Cobbs when they got those much more than some less significant common player. The green portrait Cobb is significantly tougher and the two batting poses are somewhere in the middle. I believe the bat on Cobb is tougher in high grade.
O'Hara and Demmitt come in after Magie, then I think it is up for discussion. I have been looking for an upgrade for my Smith (Chicago and Boston) for a while and have had a hard time finding one. I have not looked long enough to make any far-reaching claim - just an observation.
JimB

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Posted By: scot reader

The most common T206 subjects by far are:

Chance (Yellow Portrait)
Chase (Blue Portrait)
Chase (Dark Cap)
Cobb (Red Portrait)
Evers (Chicago on Shirt)
Matty (Dark Cap)

The main reason these six subjects are so ubiquitous is that they were "superprinted"; that is, they were printed with ALL of the 350 and 460 series back types except American Beauty 350 without frame. All other subjects that appear in both the 350 and 460 series were printed with American Beauty 350 without frame but with a subset of the other 350 and 460 series back types. In particular, among the numerous subjects that appear in both the 350 and 460 series, only the six subjects listed above were printed with American Beauty 350 with frame, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350, Sweet Caporal 460 Factory 30 and Sovereign 460. [Showing me any of Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Bender (Trees), Dahlen (Brooklyn), Fiene (Portrait), Fiene (Throwing), Kleinow (Boston), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington), Smith (Chicago & Boston), Tannehill (No "L") or Tinker (Bat On) with one of these backs will not disprove my point since none of these subjects appears in both the 350 and 460 series despite what many checklists say].

Scot

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Posted By: zach

I agree with Cobb being easy. Almost all of the hofers are easy. Cobb, Mathewson, Johnson....they're all very easy and there will alawys be multiple for sale on ebay.

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Posted By: Cobby33

(Not necessarily in any particular order)...

1. Wagner
2. Plank
3. Magie
4. O'Hara (StL)
5. Demmitt (StL)
6. Geo. Brown (Wash.)
7. R. Kleinow (Bos./Catching)
8. F. Smith (Chic. & Bos.)
9. K. Elberfeld (Wash. portrait)
10. B. Dahlen (Brooklyn)
11. J. Doyle (NY Nat'l, hands over head)
12. Cobb (Green portrait)
13. Lundgren (Chicago)
14. C. Young (portrait)

There are, of course, the "rare" and "scarce" backs and other variations (including missing ink, ghosts, etc.) that are difficult to fetch.

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Posted By: robert a

Scot,
Have you thought about publishing some of your findings? Maybe an article?
I think it's very difficult to say which are the most scarce (after the obvious players) without studying huge populations of these cards. Ebay can be skewed too because I think offerings are generally directed towards what sells the most. For instance, the smith variation, seems to be available on ebay at any time. I never thought it was as scarce as collectors say, but I do consider that it is offered a lot (perhaps the same example in some cases) because it will sell for a nice price. SLers might not be offered quite as much because they're still a bit underpriced.
I'd be interested to hear more about your opinions and where they came from.
I agree with many of your comments. Thanks for posting them.
Robert

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Posted By: Cobby33

Robert brings up a good point about seeing some "scarce" cards on eBay more often than not. But what does this mean?

It's similar to the dichotomy of certain truly scarce cards having the same population (or more in some cases) than your "common" card. Is this simply because ALL (or close to all scarce/rare cards) are graded, so it appears that there are more than the common cards that may not be graded due to expense?

Same argument can be made for eBay (as Robert suggests). Are cards like the Smith card seemingly-less scarce simply because they're on eBay, or are they on eBay because sellers know they will sell better than higher-population cards? Who knows?

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Posted By: jtschantz

I love this kind of information! How about a list of the most difficult HOFers in order? Would like to see the same list of T205 Hall of Famers also.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Robert,
I have been working on a publication called "Inside T206" that compiles everything I have been able to learn about the set through two-plus years of study (including a reasonably large ebay survey and more than a few things learned by reading this board). The publication is over 60 pages long right now and growing. I should be finished next month and when it is ready I will start a thread offering it to board readers via email in .pdf format. You are probably correct that prices impact on the number of ebay transactions and the number of cards sent to PSA, that is, higher priced subjects are more likely to be auctioned and submitted for grading. Perhaps comparisons of ebay transaction counts and the PSA population are more appropriate between like-priced subjects, that is, common v. common, southern leaguer v. southern leaguer, etc.
Scot

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Posted By: cn

I am glad I asked the question since there is so much information out there that collectors should have access to. Scott I am looking forward towards your completion of your project. It is welcomed highly by this collector. CN

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Scott, I have a Tannenhill Sov 460 back.

Lee

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Posted By: Bill

Scott are you saying that the following cards are only 350 series: Bender (Trees), Dahlen (Brooklyn), Fiene (Portrait), Fiene (Throwing), and the following are only in the 460 series: Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Kleinow (Boston), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington), Smith (Chicago & Boston), Tannehill (No "L") or Tinker (Bat On).

I have a checklist that I would like to send to you if you would be kind enough to send me your email address. Thanks, Bill

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Lee,
As I indicated in my earlier post, Tannehill (No "L") is a 460-only card despite what most if not all checklists say. So naturally it is available with Sovereign 460. It would be surprising if you had it with a 350 back.

Bill,
Yes, that's what I'm saying--although I'm not 100% sure about Dahlen (Brooklyn). Would love to see your checklist. Email included in post. Thanks.
Scot

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Posted By: scot reader

Bill, Lee:

Here is what I'm saying more precisely:

350-Only = All subjects traditionally thought of as 350-only PLUS Bender (Trees), Dahlen (Brooklyn), Fiene (Portrait), Fiene (Throwing). Possible backs = American Beauty 350 w/Frame, Broadleaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350, Drum, El Principe de Gales, Old Mill, Piedmont 350, Polar Bear, Sovereign 350, Sweet Caporal 350/25, Sweet Caporal 350/30, Tolstoi. Only exception is Nichols (Batting), a 350-only subject who appears with American Beauty 350 w/o Frame instead of w/Frame.

350+460 Super Prints = Chance (Portrait Yellow), Chase (Portrait Blue), Chase (Dark Cap), Cobb (Potrait Red), Evers (Yellow Background), Matty (Dark Cap). Possible backs = American Beauty 350 w/Frame, Broadleaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350, Drum, El Principe de Gales, Old Mill, Piedmont 350, Polar Bear, Sovereign 350, Sweet Caporal 350/25, Sweet Caporal 350/30, Tolstoi, American Beauty 460, Broadleaf 460, Cycle 460, Black Lenox, Brown Lenox, Piedmont 460/25, Piedmont 460/42, Red Hindu, Sovereign 460, Sweet Caporal 460/25, Sweet Caporal 460/30, Sweet Caporal 460/42, Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike, Uzit

350+460 Regular Prints = All subjects traditionally thought of as 350+460 MINUS Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Bender (Trees), Chance (Portrait Yellow), Chase (Portrait Blue), Chase (Dark Cap), Cobb (Portrait Red), Dahlen (Brooklyn), Evers (Yellow Background), Fiene (Portrait), Fiene (Throwing), Kleinow (Boston), Latham, Matty (Dark Cap) Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington), Smith (Chicago & Boston), Tannehill (No "L"), Tinker (Bat On). Possible backs = American Beauty 350 w/o Frame, Drum, El Principe de Gales, Old Mill, Piedmont 350, Polar Bear, Sovereign 350, Sweet Caporal 350/25, Sweet Caporal 350/30, Tolstoi, American Beauty 460, Broadleaf 460, Cycle 460, Black Lenox, Brown Lenox, Piedmont 460/25, Piedmont 460/42, Red Hindu, Sweet Caporal 460/25, Sweet Caporal 460/42, Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike, Uzit

460-Only = All subjects traditionally thought of as 460-only PLUS Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Kleinow (Boston), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington), Smith (Chicago & Boston), Tannehill (No "L"), Tinker (Bat On). Possible backs = El Principe de Gales, Old Mill, Polar Bear, Tolstoi, American Beauty 460, Broadleaf 460, Cycle 460, Black Lenox, Brown Lenox, Piedmont 460/25, Piedmont 460/42, Red Hindu, Sovereign 460, Sweet Caporal 460/25, Sweet Caporal 460/30, Sweet Caporal 460/42, Sweet Caporal 460/42 Overstrike, Uzit

Key differences with prior checklists:

1. Bender (Trees), Dahlen (Brooklyn), Fiene (Portrait), Fiene (Throwing) are 350-only--NOT 350+460 as previously thought.

2. Abbaticchio (Blue Sleeves), Kleinow (Boston), Latham, Overall (Hands at Waist), Schaefer (Washington), Smith (Chicago & Boston), Tannehill (No "L"), Tinker (Bat On) are 460-only--NOT 350+460 as previously thought.

3. Of the true 350+460 subjects, only Chance (Portrait Yellow), Chase (Portrait Blue), Chase (Dark Cap), Cobb (Potrait Red), Evers (Yellow Background), Matty (Dark Cap) are possible with American Beauty 350 w/Frame, Broadleaf 350, Carolina Brights, Cycle 350, Sovereign 460, Sweet Caporal 460/30 and are NOT possible with American Beauty 350 w/o Frame.

Scot