Lionel Carter

wolterse · #1 05-12-2009, 11:16 AM

Curious how his name attached to his graded cards impacts their value? Does it add 10%+ in value or does it have no impact at all? Thanks for your expertise, as always. EJW

Matt · #2 05-12-2009, 11:18 AM

It depends on the card in question and I'm not sure it can be quantified by a percentage, but some collector's do attach a small premium to having a card from Carter's collection.

wolterse · #3 05-12-2009, 11:20 AM

Thanks, Matt. I know that Lionel represented and stood for everything against monetizing a collection, but had always wondered if his cards were collected at a premium in the hobby.

FrankWakefield · #4 05-12-2009, 11:31 AM

Definitely a premium, if you have a buyer who knows about Mr. Carter.

Some folks know not who he was, a few care not. But generally, his cards sell for a bit more. Some folks seek just one of his cards, so some potential buyers are gone once they have one of his cards.

I have one. I was more interested in getting a first one, than I would be a second one.

He and I corresponded a bit. I have a white border tobacco card he signed on the back. He was a very nice gentleman. An interesting fellow, who knew about more than old ballcards.

MW1 · #5 05-12-2009, 12:31 PM

Lionel Carter was a contemporary of Jefferson Burdick and one of the early pioneers of this hobby. The demand for cards pedigreed from his collection is dependent upon two factors: 1. His name and 2. The quality and assurance that they are original and unaltered.

Doug · #6 05-12-2009, 12:42 PM

I used to have a T206 Home Run Baker from his collection. I thought the fact that I had a card that was once owned by a hobby legend made it that much cooler.

HRBAKER · #7 05-12-2009, 01:17 PM

I own a few cards with his pedigree. Did I pay more because of it? Not purposely but if the seller priced them higher bc of it, then I guess I did. If they were in a true auction would I bid more bc of it, no. Would I have paid the same amount for the same card in the same grade without the pedigree, likely. To each his own.

terjung · #8 05-12-2009, 01:52 PM

I have found that there are collectors who prize beaters not just because of their price, but because the cards show character and show that they were loved by somebody many moons ago. We have all heard the stories that the Mr. Carter's cards were his pride and joy. I suspect that there is a faction of people who (similar to beaters) attribute additional character to his cards because they know they were part of such a famously loved collection.

As for me, I do not own any of his pedigreed cards, but I certainly wouldn't mind owning one or more. To me, it has more to do with my suspicion that the cards were not doctored and are in as good of condition as they are because they were legitimately and meticulously cared for. Would I attach a premium to that? Probably not contiously, but it is certainly plausible that I might subcontiously be inclined to bid one increment higher than I normally would have. I suspect that there would be decreasing utility after the first purchase of one of his cards. With that in mind, any such premium would quickly deminish for subsequent purchases.

Kawika · #9 05-12-2009, 02:49 PM

Nicest two you ever saw made a bit nicer with the Carter notation.

Jay Wolt · #10 05-12-2009, 02:56 PM

As a Lionel Carter collector, I have paid premiums to purchase cards I need.
Have about 50 different issues.

rc4157 · #11 05-12-2009, 04:43 PM

I have just one card from Lionel Carter's collection, but it is special to me because it was once owned by an individual who represented our hobby with class and dignity. Mine is graded "authentic" but that doesn't lessen it's value to me. I believe it finished off my T-206 Reds search, I have no idea if I paid a premium for it but it certainly wasn't off the charts.
RC

terjung · #12 05-12-2009, 05:32 PM

Why was that one graded authentic? Was it deemed to have been trimmed?

ethicsprof · #13 05-12-2009, 07:46 PM

i have several from the carter collection and a few Nagy's and paid some premium but not exorbitant and was pleased to do so.
i respect the provenance greatly.

best,

barry

Abravefan11 · #14 05-12-2009, 07:58 PM

I picked up an Al Mattern Lionel Carter T206 for my collection an was willing to pay a premium for it but was fortunate to get it at a good market price.

I like the idea of having one of his cards in my collection. It definitely adds to the history for me.

GRock · #15 05-12-2009, 08:17 PM

I bought a few to have in a set I'm building, and I think it's really neat to have something once owned by a great person that enjoyed his collection.

tbob · #16 05-12-2009, 08:27 PM

I too have purchased caramel and tobacco cards for the pedigree, Carter and Nagy, plus they were really nice looking cards. I have refused to upgrade them because the fact they once belonged to these hobby pioneers makes them special.
I have noticed several of Carter and Nagy's cards which have been graded "authentic" but I believe that was due to old time collectors innocently trimming them up for various aesthetic purposes, not with an intent to deceive anyone or be fraudulent.

Jacklitsch · #17 05-12-2009, 08:43 PM

Here's my lone Lionel Carter. I wish he had collected Zeenuts.

MikeU · #18 05-12-2009, 10:17 PM

Every hobbyist should own at least one Lionel Carter card in their collection. Watching the video's and listening to his NPR interview brought a tear to my eye. The man was what the hobby was meant to be and still felt the same way about his cards from age 8-80.

David Halpen · #19 05-13-2009, 06:55 AM

David: That is an amazing CJ Mathewson. I cannot believe how nice it looks. I am stunned.

I have added a few Carter cards to my collection. I view them as a compliment to my respective set. One thing that I have learned is that Carter's cards have a "pack fresh" appearance to them. They have such nice eye appeal that often the technical grade does not do them justice. An example is the Mathewson card.

Another example is his 1933 Delong set. This was his first set that he put together. I always loved this set but often the cards in my grade range have poor eye appeal. When it went up for auction in Mastro, I lost out on it. However, when it went up for auction in the recent Legendary auction, I was determined not to loss a second time.

I ended up paying a premium for this set based on the techincal grade. However, the eye appeal of the set is several grade levels above the technical grade. In addition, I have Lionel Carter's first set. This set is the pride of my collection. Not because of value but because of its signifiance to Lionel Carter.

rc4157 · #20 05-13-2009, 08:12 AM

Brian - My guess on the Bescher being graded authentic is that it is probably trimmed. Still presents very well in my opinion and is nice that it is from the Carter collection.

RC

benjulmag · #21 05-13-2009, 03:43 PM

My guess is that as time goes on, cards (1) with the pedigree of coming from a hobby legend (such as Lionel Carter) AND (2) known to have been literally pulled from the pack by that person, will sell for more and more of a premium. The reason IMO is less because they were once owned by a hobby legend, but more because people will REALLY know nothing was done to them.

FrankWakefield · #22 05-13-2009, 03:48 PM

When I read that nothing was done to the cards...

I'd think Mr. Carter was not beyond soaking a card off of a scrapbook page. Personally, I think that's what should be done to a card that's on a scrapbook page, but I believe some folks here think that to be undesirable. Do you guys really think Mr. Carter never soaked a card, or are you talking about alterations?

martyogelvie · #23 05-13-2009, 03:52 PM

I don't think he ever soaked a card. I don't think he would have ever needed to. I could be wrong, but I assume he gathered the majority of his pre war cards before the boom and I am quite sure I read where he only collected the best examples of each card and nearly threw away his Plank T206 because of its condition but kept it hoping to get an upgrade, which never arrived!

I don't have anything vs soaking a card.. taking off what is not meant to be there seems fine with me..

tbob · #24 05-13-2009, 03:57 PM

I have a couple of Carter cards which are pack fresh fronts and look like highest graded but a tiny bit of paper loss on the back. I don't think Lionel woried too much about the backs. They are stunning Tattoo Orbit cards.

MW1 · #25 05-13-2009, 04:28 PM

Frank,

I have to agree with some others here. The era in which Lionel Carter collected was one in which the condition of the reverse side of the card wasn't as important as it is today. In fact, it was not an uncommon practice for some dealers to routinely write prices on the backs of cards when selling them. I doubt Lionel Carter would have soaked cards to remove excess paper or that he, as condition conscious as he was, would even have acquired such cards through trades or purchases. The fact that his collection was housed in a series of albums lends additional support to this idea as well -- why would he remove paper from the back of his cards only to store them in a way where the backs were obscured? Just my thoughts...