1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[abctoo]

I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by abctoo

I'm new to net54baseball, but have carefully read all of the posts in this thread (which has been ongoing since 2008). Unfortunately, several posted scans have been lost over time from the problems with image hosting websites.

One picture of importance to me may have been in Post #4 (from 2008), a picture of the Warren Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set. Whatever the scan was in Post #4 no longer appears and the weblink that shows up in its place doesn't work. If the scan was the Warren Cooper card, could you post it again? If it wasn't the Cooper card, would someone kindly post a scan of the Cooper card from the "Sports Star Subjects" set?

Second, which player that appeared in the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set was replaced in the "Sports Star Subjects" set by the Warren Cooper card?

Thanks for your help. Mike

Welcome to the club, Mike Fried

I do not have a Walker Cooper card to show you from the Sports Star Subjects set. However, I do have the 1949 NY Giants Team Photo Pack (25 photos),
which were issued at the Polo Grounds. Shown here is Walker Cooper from this Photo Pack set. The exact image is in the Sports Star Subjects card set.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

TED Z: There is no dispute that all of the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread cards existing today still have their original white backs (no matter how dirty the backs may have become) and 4 rounded corners, except for those like the examples posted in this thread where the die cut did not go all the way through.

Let me digress a little. In 1947, the Remar Baking Company put out its Sunbeam Bread set for the Oakland Oaks of my home town. Records show that in 1936, Remar was baking 40,000 loafs of bread per day. Though I cannot find records as to the number of loafs Remar baked post-war, it is not unreasonable to presume that number had significantly increased by 1947.

I do not have information on how many loafs of Homogenized Bond Bread were baked daily, but it is not unreasonable to assume the number was 50,000 to 100,000 or more loafs each day. Assuming 100,000 loafs per day, even if the cards were printed in sheets of 48 (an issue I will address in a subsequent post), that's a need to print 2,000 sheets just to satisfy one day's demand for inserts. Ted has said the cards were distributed from 1947 into 1948. That's a lot of days, and this was done for months. In just one week alone (assuming they did not bake on Sundays), 600,000 cards or more were inserted.

I have begun been doing extensive research not only on the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but on the "Sports Star Subjects" set, the Festberg remainders, various other sets that have been called "Bond Bread" sets (including the "three-sided perforated" set, the "cowboy" backed set and the larger sized Exhibits), as well as the Team Photo Pack sets sold in the ball parks and others (even the R364 Blue Tints because they were mentioned in this thread).

I will soon post extensive details identifying the company that was the source of the pictures for these sets, which will show the obvious printer. We all know, on the surface, the 1947 Team Photo Packs appear to be the source of the pictures used in many of these sets. They are not. They are only the same pictures coming from the same source. The difference between the Team Photo Packs and the cards of these various sets were printed gives us a clue. [In fact, it was the Babe Zaharias card posted in this thread with "Hess Shoe" rubber stamped backs of cards that led me to hours of research and the identification.] A close look with a magnifying glass at the same cards of the same player (or boxer) from one set to another shows the cards of that player all have the same screen dot pattern. [On the Exhibits, the dot pattern is just in a larger size.]

As to the special Jackie Robinson set, another thread on net54 baseball has provided convincing evidence that Bond Bread distributed the first card of that set in 1947, including by going into black neighborhoods and giving that card away along with two slides of Bond Bread to promote the product. The rest of the special Jackie Robinson set was distributed one card at a time from 1947 through 1949. Hopefully, that discovery has changed people's perspectives on what are Robinson's rookie cards. It is a tough pill to swallow when a card you think is a rookie card no longer is. Fortunately, those Jackie Robinson cards still retain their scarcity.

As to the "Sports Star Subjects" set, which is not a 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, both here in net54ball and elsewhere, many have dated the set to 1949 because that was the earliest year any advertisement offering the set has been found.

Ted, the work you have done on T206s is masterful! From what you have described in just your net54ball postings alone to develop the different advertising back sets clearly shows that few, if any, collectors have the knowledge and ability to even come close.

But with all due respect, I have a friendly disagreement with you about whether there is a Walker Cooper card in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. One of the 48 players would have had to be left out so that Cooper could come in. All of my records and research indicate that all 48 original players and boxers appeared in the "Sports Star Subjects" set. I would like to see an actual Walker Cooper card from the set.

As to the Festberg remainder cards, others have claimed they are 1980's reprints made when they were first offered to the public. Below are two scans of my examination under ultra-violet light. This is important because by 1950 paper manufacturers were adding brighteners to the papermaking process because both pictures and text print more clearing on brightened paperstock. Under ultra-violet light, brighteners phosphoresce and/or fluoresce while paperstock without brighteners remains dull. A Festberg card was placed over a strip of brighten paper. Both scans below show the strip of paper reacting to the ultra-violet light while the Festberg remainder card did not. That places the Festberg remainder cards to being made no later than 1950.

I take the story about the finding of the Festberg remainder cards at face value. That story indicates they were unissued cards. They should not be described as cards released to the public. They should always be referred to as remainders. You'll note, I did not say which set they were remainders of. Keep an open mind. My soon to be posted discussion (it may take a few posts) about the photograph sources and printers of these set should help clear that up.






P.S. I add this note in memory of my fellow collector, Ken Yee. I remember going to a show with him decades ago. He took me to a dealer, pulled out a Mark Maguire highly graded PSA rookie card and sold to the dealer for $50, about one-sixth of the going price at the time. I protested: "Why didn't you sell it me? Everybody knows it's a valuable card." He explained that over 500,000 of the same card had already been graded by the various grading companies. He said, they don't care and know exactly what they are doing, making money by getting everybody to believe they provide a valuable service.

And that leads me to TED Z's favorite "Bond Bread" card that gets posted from time to time.

This past week, I looked at the population reports for 1947 cards at PSA's website. For those who do not know, PSA has graded only one card it called a “1947 Bond Bread" card, a PSA 7 Ted Williams. Apparently, there was some controversy, because after grading that one card, PSA now says it no longer grades “1947 Bond Bread” cards. I've never seen the back of that cards, so I can't determine what it is.

There are also Exhibits cards with the identical pictures as the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread set, but the pictures were printed in the larger Exhibits size. Though these Exhibits are not Bond Bread cards, both PSA, SCG and I believe BGS continue to grade them as “1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." PSA alone as graded some 305 of these "1947 Bond Bread Exhibits." The same player pictures have been found on three-sided perforated cards with pictures of Westerns stars or other subjects printed on the back. Though not Homogenized Bond Bread cards, several grading companies grade these three sized-perforated cards as “1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual-Sized.” PSA has graded 28 of them.

[pcoz]

Nice cards guys!

[Exhibitman]

Looking forward to your posts, Michael.

My understanding is that the miscellaneous formats of cards originated with Aarco and was then licensed.

The "exhibit" cards are not and have never been understood by Exhibit collectors to be Exhibit cards for one overriding reason: they don't fit into the machines for vending. How they were sold is conjectural as far as I know.

The perforated, dual side cards appear to have been made by Elgee Products, likely as a licensee of Aarco, then sold to various retailers to stamp and use as premiums for the kiddies, hence the Hess Shoes stamped cards.

[abctoo]

Due to an excessive amount of blank lines appearing the text of this post, it has been deleted to save space in this thread. This post has been reposted without all of that blank (white) space in the next thread, Post #198.

[abctoo]

Sorry there was a systems gliche in my last post of less than an hour ago. Below it is corrected without the long white space and other errors. As to the other members' responses about the sources of the pictures, their manufacturers and the processses involved, you are getting closer. It's detailed and I hope to have a response posted very soon.

Originally Posted by pcoz

Nice cards guys!

A response about "Babe Ruth" and a note about seeing the reactions of ultra-violet (UV) light on the paperstock of a card to determine its vintage.

BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING UV LIGHT! It is part of normal sunlight but our eyes do not see it. Our bodies though sure can feel the sunburn UV light can cause. We can wear UV light shielding sunglasses, but don't stare directly at the sun. UV light can be dangerous.

Today, UV light sources are readily available and around us in many products. For example, lightbulbs generating more intense UV light than in sunlight are bought by many households to periodically sanitize away the bacteria and viruses that can normally accumulate including the bad "bugs" we do not want around. All of those sanitizing UV bulbs come with cautions not to be around the half to an hour or so while the light is on as the UV light can impact our bodies and to be especially careful not to look directly at the bulb when it is shining as that can damage your eyes. Eyes are not built to see UV wavelengths. All we see are the wavelengths normally visible to us that these bulbs simultaneously generate. It is the reaction to the UV light that is important, even though we cannot see the UV light itself.

UV light bulbs that specifically generate only short-wave or long-wave UV light (without the wavelengths of other colors) can be obtained. Post offices use UV light sealed inside some automated mail processing machines to read the chemicals it has had printed on first class stamps (and some others). These chemicals are invisible to us under normal light but will react to UV light by "glowing" in various colors that the machines can read. Newer US stamps react to certain wavelengths of shortwave UV light, while the Canadian and British stamps react to longwave UV light. You have seen a similar effect if you have ever gone into a "dark" room at some exhibition where UV light was shining on rocks or minerals. They sure glow, don't they.

Why does it seem like I have been rambling with all of the above information? Actually, the information is provided to specifically address the authenticity of the Babe Ruth card shown in the previous post.

First, the card is in a card holder. UV light has to directly shine on the thing you want to react to it or you get no reaction. Even a thin T-shirt usually protects covered skin from sunburn. The plastic in PSA's holder would block the UV from reaching the card so there is no possibility of a reaction occurring. Even a simple card sleeve will block out UV light. Anything between the UV light source and the object will block out the UV light and thus remove the possibility of a reaction occurring.

If grading services would now start to shine UV light through their holders as the test for previously graded cards, that would no test at all. The ability of a paper reaction to UV light has been block by the holder. No reaction can occur even if one possibly could on direct contact with UV light. A preliminary UV light test for the age of paper is that newer paper will react to the UV light while vintage paper will not react. Perhaps, grading services will perform the UV light test in the future by shining the light through the holder and see no reaction. Thus they can claim to have "proved" the paperstock of the card in the unopened holder was vintage as there was no reaction to UV light at all. What would be the value of such a claim when no UV light had actually shined on the card? Keeping this Babe Ruth card in it PSA holder provides a tremendous example of the quality of grading company expertise.

I am no expert on Babe Ruth's autograph. If someone wanted my opinion on whether a Babe Ruth autograph was genuine or not, the first thing I would want to do is see if thing the purported autograph was on was something that Babe Ruth could have actually signed. I've been around long enough to know that vintage Babe Ruth cards are high enough in price and demand that they have been modified, reproduced and faked extensively, perhaps during Babe Ruth's time, but certainly thereafter.

A slight digression: In the 1980s, my son and I set up at a small card show at the Scottish Rites Temple in Oakland where Mickey Mantle had come to sign autographs to help raise funds for that financially troubled local chapter. I had a Topps Mantle rookie that was terribly beat up with damaged corners, numerous creases and a number "7" almost 1 inch high strongly impressed by pencil on the front. Back then, no one would have paid $5 for it. Most grading companies would have certainly graded it "A" for authentic, but I would have considered myself very fortunate if it received a grade of "1" (the lowest condition grade). Before the show, my son said he wanted to have Mickey autograph the card as that would give it some value. When we arrived to setup at the show, I told the person in charge what we wanted and paid the $10 fee for the autograph. I ultimately received the autographed card for my son. (How I did is a long story for another time as the show promoter forgot to have Mantle sign it while he was there.) In the past ten years, my son was offered over $750 for the ungraded card and was smart enough to sell it to confirm he was justified in his actions 25 years earlier. Looking at the extremes, is a Babe Ruth card worth 10 cents or 10 million dollars?

Actually shining a UV light on the Babe Ruth card outside its holder in a room with the normal lights off will show whether the card contains "brighteners" or not. No brighteners, no glow - - the initial sign of vintage paperstock. [That still does not prove the autograph authentic.] If a glow, the card was probably printed on paper made more recently than 1950. That analysis of the UV light results works most of the time and at least gives you a starting point. However, if vintage paper has been kept in direct contact with newer paper containing brighteners, in some instances some of those brighteners can transfer to the vintage paper. The biggest problem is when someone tries to clean a card, especially using some form of soap. Many cleaning products contain "brighteners" just as the boxes of Tide, All and other detergents tell you. Experiencing the difference in uniformity and splotchiness of such "glows" will help determine if that has occurred. At least the UV test is a good starting point to see if the paper was available at the time its autographer was alive.

A further digression: I recently sold a lot of graded 8 and 9 cards of rookies from the middle 1980's. The ideas highly promoted by various grading companies back then to get people use their services included: first, grading will make a card more valuable, and second, grading provides proof of authenticity. Back then, most grading services charged between $6 and $20 to grade a card (some also required membership). A look today at PSA's price guide on-line for PSA 8 and PSA 9 rookie cards from the middle 1980's shows most of these graded cards retail at prices lower than the cost of originally having them graded. Ungraded, perhaps a few of those rookies would sell today for a couple of dollars.

I am not suggesting the owner of the pictured graded and authenticated card labeled Babe Ruth take the card out of its holder for a UV light test, but until the grading card services are held to task financially (like by a court judgment) on the promises they made about the value of their services and the value that grading adds to a card, little will change.

Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, Oakland, California, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[JeremyW]

He copyrighted it.