Moral of story: don't sell an altered card. Sorry that I have to out a fellow member.

[Brian Van Horn]

Recently I purchased a card that was altered:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...L:COSI:US:1123

I decided to sell it on Net54 with it clearly being listed as altered:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151418

The buyer now has the card back on eBay, but does not have it listed as altered:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...S:1123#vi-desc

I sent the buyer/lister the following e-mail via eBay:

"Please list that this card is altered. Otherwise, I will follow up with eBay to make sure it is noted."

His response:

"Done."

The listing now includes, "looks to have a goofy cut to bottom of the card also"

I am presently following up with eBay.

Just a heads up guys. The card is altered and the PSA label and container was mailed to this fellow board member with the card.

[HRBAKER]

Well that revision certainly falls a bit short of communicating that the card is altered or was at least adjudged to be.

[Rob D.]

Any way this can be pinned on third-party grading?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Any way this can be pinned on third-party grading?

.........working on it!

[Brian Van Horn]

Great feedback also. What his name BTW. Since he is not being honest no point in giving slack.

[Tcards-Please]

Andrew,

It is post #2 on the BST link. So much for full disclosure on his part.

r/
Frank

[christopher.herman]

Leon,
Does this joker now get banned from the board? The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Good work, Brian.

[Brian Van Horn]

Frank,

My apologies for my oversight.

[Rob D.]

Not sure what's more appalling: the (lack of) description or the $5.50 shipping.

[Tcards-Please]

Brian,

Appreciate you bringing this to light. This is probably the last thing you wanted to do, but even after giving him the opportunity to make it right, he still refused.

r/
Frank

[Jaybird]

not cool.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Not sure what's more appalling: the (lack of) description or the $5.50 shipping.

At least he didn't raise his BP.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Based on the feedback of the current ebay listing's seller .... I'm shocked -- SHOCKED -- to learn that there's gambling going on in this establishment.

[JMANOS]

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

[Tcards-Please]

Why not show the PSA slip with the card or at a minimum state that it was submitted to PSA and they deemed it to be "ALTERED"? I'm not questioning your grading abilities, but it would be nice to state PSA's assessment.

That was the way it was first advertised on ebay, then by Brian on the BST.

r/
Frank

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by T's please

Why not show the PSA slip with the card or at a minimum state that it was submitted to PSA and they deemed it to be "ALTERED"? I'm not questioning your grading abilities, but it would be nice to state PSA's assessment.

That was the way it was first advertised on ebay, then by Brian on the BST.

r/
Frank

Um because that would impact potential profits?

[HercDriver]

I don't know Jmanos, but what if he's the world's greatest 1948 Leaf expert and his opinion is that it isn't altered? Why is some PSA dude presumed to be the expert over one of the board members?

I won a lot in REA a couple years ago that contained some T207s that the description said were trimmed. I sent them to SGC to round out a lot for one of their specials, just to get an "A" grade on them. They came back with some pretty nice grades, actually. So if I ever sell them, do I say they are SGC 50, but REA called them trimmed?

I guess my point is, somebody can think a card is trimmed and sell it to somebody who doesn't think it's trimmed...both guys thinking they got a good deal. It doesn't necessarily imply the 2nd guy is wrong in his assessment.

Just my two cents...

Take Care,
Geno

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by JMANOS

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

Your "opinion" flies directly in the face of third party (albeit subjective in itself but well established/documented) evidence, constructive board etiquette and general ethics.

Your lack of insight into your clearly deceptive tactics makes you a liability on this board (and to the hobby at large) as well as to anyone with whom you may conduct transactions.

~Christopher

[vintagetoppsguy]

Agreed with Geno. Why does PSA have more merit than JMANOS?

After all, they're the same folks that graded this card a 10.



If that card doesn't tell you everything you need to know about PSA, then you're just drinking the Kool Aid!

[Tcards-Please]

Geno,

I wasn't questioning his personal opinion, but just saying that it would be nice to have full disclosure so that potential buyers have all the information and can make an informed decision.

r/
Frank

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by JMANOS

Card measures fine it has a goofy cut, I dont think the card is altered at all. I have alot of 1948 Leaf that have the same issue. Sorry my opinion.

Jim,

The card was submitted by a previous owner and was returned by PSA "Altered." This is not in the listing. When you purchased the card, I sent you the container with the card with the PSA Altered label.

[phikappapsi]

Seems pretty clear cut. The guy traded for an altered card here, threw away the evidence/TPG grade and is trying to turn it around for a profit without full disclosure.

Even if "your opinion" is that the card isn't trimmed, the unethical approach to trying to swing a quick buck is what appears to have most of the board more upset.

[calvindog]

Seems a bit fishy to me but I find that all resellers of PSA or SGC-determined trimmed cards always believe that the card was not trimmed when they resell it. Interesting.

[Brian Van Horn]

Update at 7:39:30 EST this morning. It, however, does not mention the PSA label in the update:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-World-W...item1c2765bb4c

[x2drich2000]

Taken by itself I don't see any problem with not disclosing that the card came back altered from PSA. The grade/determination assigned by PSA is their opinion. It is not fact. We have all heard of cases where PSA has deemed a card trimmed but upon resubmitting it has been graded numerically. Should a seller have to disclose if a card is resubmitted and receives a higher grade the 2nd time? The description indicates something is not right with the bottom border, so the buyer is aware. Furthermore, the seller also provides a 14 day return policy giving recourse if the buyer is not satisfied.

What does bother me though is looking at this card combined with the sellers overall feedback. Feedback percentage is 96.7% positive and most of the negative comments seem to be related to items not sent. To me that is concerning.

dj

[HRBAKER]

The card was sold twice, both times with the caveat that it was deemed "altered" by a recognized TPG. Even if the determination was made in his opinion that the assessment was wrong, it should have been mentioned bc it is material and then he should have said based on "ya ya ya" I disagree and do not believe that the card is altered but has an abnormal cut, etc. That's setting the bar at a fairly low level I think.

As a buyer, what would you want to know? And yes, TPGs make mistakes (often egregious) and he may be right about the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Seems a bit fishy to me but I find that all resellers of PSA or SGC-determined trimmed cards always believe that the card was not trimmed when they resell it. Interesting.

PSA did not say the card was trimmed. They said it was altered. That could mean a number of things such as re-colored. If JMANOS is qualified (and by qualified I mean through years of experience) to determine that the card is not altered and TRULY BELIEVES that, then he has a right to sell it as he wishes.

Come on guys, these are the same folks that slabbed a laser copy of a Ty Cobb cut autograph as authentic. Some of our board experts determined that the cut was not authentic. So should Donovan have been allowed to still sell it even though PSA determined that it was authentic? In other words, why does PSA's opinion count on this card in question, but it doesn't count on the Ty Cobb autograph?

Keep drinking the Kool Aid, folks!

[Robextend]

The solution seems simple in these cases, list the facts and state your opinion.

Disclose that the card was deemed trimmed by PSA, however say that you feel the card is not trimmed (and for whatever reason) and let the buyer decide.

I think that would be most fair for all parties.

[wonkaticket]

No dog in this fight.

However I will say that if you guys expect total disclosure and honesty in this hobby don’t hold your breath. All you can do is educate yourself as best you can to what you collect and buyer beware.

I have yet to see any of the below descriptions on cards for sale or auction…let me know when you see them pop up.

“Here is a BLANK graded PSA 8/SGC 88 card of BLANK I finally got this card into this PSA/SGC holder after cracking and submitting it at least 12 times from its previous grades of EXMT-NM, please bid accordingly”

“Here is a BLANK graded PSA 8 card of BLANK amazing card had tiny pencil mark which I erased and told nobody about lucky the graders didn’t catch it but wanted to be honest bid accordingly”

“Here is a BLANK graded SGC 88 card of BLANK card was soaked out of old time album managed to get all glue residue off card lucky the graders didn’t catch it but wanted to be honest bid accordingly”

“Here is a BLANK graded PSA 7 card of BLANK great card and tough too! Card was in an AUTH holder when I got it in lot #345 in the last BLANK auction. Thought it looked good submitted it a few times and here you go bid accordingly”

“Here is a BLANK graded PSA 6/SGC 80 card of BLANK super rare card! As a huge submitter/auction house I personally walked this card into the grading company for review…after hearing the news this card would grade lower than we wanted. We went to lunch with the principles of the company and explained how this would make my consignor unhappy and could cost them and me business. The grading company then decided to do me a solid and give the card the much needed bump to get us and our consignor where we needed to be. Again we here at BLANK auction house wanted to be honest please bid accordingly”

I do laugh with all the shilling and crooked stuff in this hobby we seem to fixate on the little fish while the sharks swim around fairly free to bite our asses if you will.

Just my two cents….

On this situation I no doubt agree a tad shady and not forthcoming but not world shattering or unexpected.

Cheers,

John

Originally Posted by christopher.herman

Your "opinion" flies directly in the face of third party (albeit subjective in itself but well established/documented) evidence, constructive board etiquette and general ethics.

Your lack of insight into your clearly deceptive tactics makes you a liability on this board (and to the hobby at large) as well as to anyone with whom you may conduct transactions.

~Christopher

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Bought a M116 from TBOB just before Nationals last yr. He sold it as trimmed. Graded a SGC 6. I looked it over and seen nothing wrong and submitted it. Am I supposed to tell the buyer I bought it raw as trimmed but TPG said its a 6 now????


I have a T205 Lee FS on Ebay. I believe 100% that this card is a scrap card. Void of gold boarder, wavy right side, appearance of gold boarder on left side where other card joined the sheet, and it's trashed. I don't care what anyone else says. You can't see it in person, hold it, or loupe it over a screen. I have handled 1000's and 1000's of T205's and although I am no said expert I do know my 205's quite well. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. So if I sent to PSA and it came back Altered because the right side is cut with scissors and the left side appears to have gotten a full straight snip then am I supposed to believe them now. Stop making an issue because he is gonna make a profit off a card he bought. If he guarantees a refund on the card who cares. Making mountains out of ant hills IMO.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Update at 7:39:30 EST this morning. It, however, does not mention the PSA label in the update:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1936-World-W...item1c2765bb4c

So If I purchase a PSA 5 (EX) graded card but I feel that card is in fact EX-MT and should have been graded a 6 (EX-MT) don't I have every right to crack the case and list the card as being in an EX-MT condition and price it according to a EX-MT grade? Would you expect me to detail and disclose in my auction that the card was originally graded a 5 by PSA?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by markf31

So If I purchase a PSA 5 (EX) graded card but I feel that card is in fact EX-MT and should have been graded a 6 (EX-MT) don't I have every right to crack the case and list the card as being in an EX-MT condition and price it according to a EX-MT grade? Would you expect me to detail and disclose in my auction that the card was originally graded a 5 by PSA?

Yes, you have that right. I see a distinction btw an undergraded scenario and a card that was graded as Altered.

I have a hypo question. What would you make of a seller whose business model was to focus on and purchase cards that are slabbed as Authentic/Altered, crack them out and list them raw with no disclosure.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Andrew - To me and many other forum members who predate me, YOU are a newbie. So what's your point? Should I and other more long-standing members disregard YOUR opinion on that basis, or say that you have no right to state one? Is there something in the NET54 handbook regarding how long you are a newbie and thus must refrain from making such comments? Or is there an unwritten rules area like in baseball?

For the record, I feel that failure to disclose pertinent information constitutes a clear ethical lapse. Regardless of your opinion of PSA, their opinion is clearly relevant and the matter of who is the more qualified card evaluator (impossible to determine) is irrelevant.

Ken

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I won a lot in REA a couple years ago that contained some T207s that the description said were trimmed. I sent them to SGC to round out a lot for one of their specials, just to get an "A" grade on them. They came back with some pretty nice grades, actually. So if I ever sell them, do I say they are SGC 50, but REA called them trimmed?

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Bought a M116 from TBOB just before Nationals last yr. He sold it as trimmed. Graded a SGC 6. I looked it over and seen nothing wrong and submitted it. Am I supposed to tell the buyer I bought it raw as trimmed but TPG said its a 6 now????

Originally Posted by markf31

So If I purchase a PSA 5 (EX) graded card but I feel that card is in fact EX-MT and should have been graded a 6 (EX-MT) don't I have every right to crack the case and list the card as being in an EX-MT condition and price it according to a EX-MT grade? Would you expect me to detail and disclose in my auction that the card was originally graded a 5 by PSA?

Great stories/thoughts, guys. But you’re letting logic and reason get in the way of a good witch hunt.

[alanu]

I've had cards that were deemed trimmed by one grading service (PSA or SGC) and not by another and in that case don't think any disclosures are necessary, but in this case, unless the card is sent to SGC for grading, I believe full disclosure should be provided.

With that said, for all the PSA/3rd party grading bashers out there (I'm not one of them), why would they care what PSA said about he card.

[Jewish-collector]

I met JMANOS at the 2007 National in Cleveland and he's a really nice guy. Will that help ?

[barrysloate]

Here are my thoughts: Suppose you send a card in for grading, and it comes back trimmed. Then you resubmit it to the same service, or to the other guys, and it now comes back with a numerical grade, and you decide not to disclose this when you sell it. Why is it assumed that you are pulling a fast one?

What if you genuinely believed the card was not trimmed, felt certain the graders got it wrong the first time, and correctly assigned it a number grade upon resubmission. Why should you mention this? Why should the seller be put in the position of having to explain the errors of TPG to his customers? In this example there is nothing pertinent that needs to be disclosed.

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Great stories/thoughts, guys. But you’re letting logic and reason get in the way of a good witch hunt.

Witch hunt? Just because you cannot discern that failure to disclose pertinent facts is wrong, doesn't mean that others cannot.

[DJR]

.

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Wow some strong words for someone that is a newby here and doesn't know J at all. You have better odds of being removed for comments than him for giving his own opinion about his card.

Bought a M116 from TBOB just before Nationals last yr. He sold it as trimmed. Graded a SGC 6. I looked it over and seen nothing wrong and submitted it. Am I supposed to tell the buyer I bought it raw as trimmed but TPG said its a 6 now????


I have a T205 Lee FS on Ebay. I believe 100% that this card is a scrap card. Void of gold boarder, wavy right side, appearance of gold boarder on left side where other card joined the sheet, and it's trashed. I don't care what anyone else says. You can't see it in person, hold it, or loupe it over a screen. I have handled 1000's and 1000's of T205's and although I am no said expert I do know my 205's quite well. Not everyone shares the same opinion though. So if I sent to PSA and it came back Altered because the right side is cut with scissors and the left side appears to have gotten a full straight snip then am I supposed to believe them now. Stop making an issue because he is gonna make a profit off a card he bought. If he guarantees a refund on the card who cares. Making mountains out of ant hills IMO.

Ethics 101.
Lesson 1: Principle of Full Disclosure.

"Newby" or not, I have bought, sold and traded with dozens of members here with (seemingly) honest results.

This thread has been very informative and eye-opening as to who shares my views. Thank you.

[wonkaticket]

Barry exactly agree 100%.

Ken, did he really keep all that much info back? Said card had funky bottom edge….true he didn't put a big paragraph on how PSA thought it was trimmed he also didn’t scan and post the previous AUTH/Trimmed label but did you really expect him too?

Like I said let me know when we start getting auction house and eBay write ups like I showed above. Otherwise this is just par for the course in this hobby…and if anything this is mini golf compared to what isn’t disclosed to us on a regular basis.

Cheers,

John

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by markf31

So If I purchase a PSA 5 (EX) graded card but I feel that card is in fact EX-MT and should have been graded a 6 (EX-MT) don't I have every right to crack the case and list the card as being in an EX-MT condition and price it according to a EX-MT grade? Would you expect me to detail and disclose in my auction that the card was originally graded a 5 by PSA?

My only point is that if the card has been submitted and returned with an "Altered" assessment and the seller received both of these from me, both should be listed. At the very least the word "altered" with an explanation of the PSA judgment should be included in the listing.

[HRBAKER]

Barry,
I agree with your scenario but I see it as different, he had the card resubmitted and it "numbered." For better or worse (I am ambivalent here), that takes his POV out of the equation. In this instance a seller chose to omit what I consider a material fact from the cards past. It may not be altered and he did mention it had a funky bottom.

I'll repeat my question from above; what would we make of a seller whose business model was to focus on and buy slabbed Altered/Authentic cards, crack them out and list them raw with no disclosure. I guess if he deemed that TPGs were mistaken 100% of the time then there is no issue.

John,
I agree this is small potatoes compared to the shenanigans we all suffer (most unknowingly) at the hands of many of the players in this hobby. We all keep going back to the well so I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter much.

As a buyer, I would want to know. As a seller, I would have disclosed it. Let's leave it at that.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Great stories/thoughts, guys. But you’re letting logic and reason get in the way of a good witch hunt.

Wholeheartedly agree. The TPGs opinions are just opinions--how expert is debatable given the pure $hit I've seen get past them.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

I think everyone on the board now that Jim is here for the profit value, and offers little to nothing on the main board, just hawks the BST as a low cost way of conducting business. I personally don't like to tactic and chose not to deal with him, this just helps to confirm this.

Plus if you are buying an Net54 and selling on Ebay, you better be prepared to defend yourself because there are many on the board watching both ends.

Lee

[barrysloate]

Jeff- I agree, but I wasn't citing Jim out. I was giving a generic example. Jim's situation was admittedly a little different.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I guess my point is, somebody can think a card is trimmed and sell it to somebody who doesn't think it's trimmed...both guys thinking they got a good deal. It doesn't necessarily imply the 2nd guy is wrong in his assessment.

Or that the first guy is wrong...

[Tcards-Please]

So how many of you are going to go after that T206 Honus Wagner that is being talked about on another thread? It's a good deal right now as PSA could be wrong. How many of you would have asked the seller (if he didn't already disclose the fact that the authenticity was questionable by PSA), "if this doesn't grade a minimum of Authentic, can I return it?" That question gets asked ALOT. Suppose the flip had "AUTHENTIC/ALTERED" how many of you would now bid on that card? So for all the lip on TPG, most (not all) of you would take a leap of faith with their assessment as opposed to taking someones word especially when their feedback is 96.7%.

Again, I'm not saying one person's assessment is wrong and that TPG are the be all in making determinations on the characteristics of a card.

No witch hunt here, all I'm saying is why not disclose the information you have on hand so that potential buyers can make an informed decision?

And I'm sure Jim is a good guy.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

My only point is that if the card has been submitted and returned with an "Altered" assessment and the seller received both of these from me, both should be listed. At the very least the word "altered" with an explanation of the PSA judgment should be included in the listing.

I agree with you, Brian.

Simply put, if I bought that card from Jim and then discovered the history you posted, I'd be very mad and I'd be looking to return the card...at the very least.

Yes, grades are opinions. And yes, PSA makes lots of mistakes. But they don't just reject cards willy-nilly. The card came back with the opinion that there was evidence of alteration. That is a very material fact that ought to be disclosed by any ethical seller.

Cheers,
Blair