What makes a great collector?

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Posted By: Darren

First, I think a true love of the cards and what they represent is what makes a great collector. Second, a collector who is also a dealer(unless it is exclusively to fund card collecting) is not as good as a pure collector imho.

Does the personality of a collector play a role? the value of the collection? the volume?

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Posted By: barrysloate

All of the above. It takes a total package, but knowledge is as good a starting point as any.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

same qualities that make for a good person + passion for cards = great collector

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I think a great collector is someone who truely loves cards and the hobby itself, and takes joy in sharing his/her wisdom of cards with others, and spreading knowledge of the hobby.
I do not think it matters if someone is classified as a "dealer" for purposes of defining a great "collector."

Good topic.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Chris Mc

I'm with Jeff on this one. I have to say that I have met some of the best people who also share my love for collecting cards. Best to all, Chris

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Posted By: Brian

cash flow?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

anyone who has millions of dollars can buy a ton of great stuff...does this alone make them a great collector? absolutely NOT! here are few characteristics, that IMO, make for a great collector:

1. knowledge & passion in the sport they are collecting (history, players, etc...then obviosuly it can go much deeper...knowing stats, equipment used, stadiums, etc...)

2. knowledge & passion of collecting (not only variations, sets, error cards, etc, but also knowing who are the best dealers, auction houses, etc)

3. creativeness (ability to think of and propose attractive deals with fellow collectors)

4. being able to work on a budget, and parlay what you own into more & making your set better and more valueable...and ultimately build a super collection on a limited budget...


i guess if i thought about it long enough i can come up with more...but these are my first thoughts...

MVS
NYC

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

collect as many sets as possible in psa 8 or higher

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Posted By: John H.

First of all, you have to be born with the collecting gene. Not everyone is and, personally, I just don't understand it.<g>

I think a great collector is someone who does it for the love of his chosen collectible(s). Someone who doesn't spend more money than he or she can afford but someone who picks their spots and tries to bring in their chosen material in a cost effective manner. I think it's important to be well educated and have a good understanding of the subject that you are collecting and a good collector must have a passion for that subject.

Collecting for the sake of having something to collect doesn't cut it. That's why my collecting interests have changed so many times in the course of my life. As soon as I find something new to consume me I tend to lose a great deal of interest in my previous passion. The opposite also holds true. If my collectible of choice becomes less attractive, e.g. modern sports cards, I'll lose interest and inevitably find something else to pick up on.

John

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Posted By: jP

I agree with both Jeff and Chris. way to go guys.



my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: dstudeba

The ability to get people to pay their deliquent bills in an efficient, legal, and respectful manner.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

A great collector by definition is one who has built a world class collection.

Whether it is the Rockefeller collection of African art, Forbes collection of
Faberge eggs, Elisaberg coin collection or Wharton-Tigar tobacco card
collection, the quality of the collection was world class in every way.

Each of these collectors contributed greatly to the public's base of knowledge
in their writings and lectures and ultimately the collections each found
their way into a museum.

A great collector must be far more than a nice person who loves the hobby;
he or she must be a true student of the craft; someone who is passionate
about his/her chosen specialty and someone who is focused on acquiring
outstanding examples of the items that he/she collects.

Most great collectors have taken the time to learn about the provenance of the
items they collect, whilst focusing on acquiring the best known examples, extant.

We are not suggesting that only those who collect the highest graded cards
can be called great collectors, but rather that one's contribution to the craft
and one's level of taste are essential criteria for the great collector

Bruce

America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: jay behrens

We just wretched all over our keyboard whilst reading that last post.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

"A great collector by definition is one who has built a world class collection."

Respectfully, Bruce, that is YOUR definition of a great collector. Why does it have to be high end?
Is it possible to be a "great collector" and only have cards that are either low grade, or unslabbed in "collector's condition?"

For example, if a collector has a HR Kisses set in low grade, a complete CJ set in PSA 1, and an Minio Cig. set, in low grade. Would they not be a "great collector?"
In all sincerity, I am interested in your response to these questions.

Certainly, those with high grade collections are impressive, and very interesting to look at.

But lets not mistake a bank account with a large number attached to it, with a collector who has an "baseball card IQ" with a low number attached to it.

Josh


Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: leon

C'mon now.....we had a deal....I actually agree with some of what Bruce said...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

(Leon, you rang...)

Jay,

I guess a lot of us just wretched all over the keyboard... Since I'm just a lowly uneducated ignorant collector of crap I'll just WHILE instead of WHILST "reading that last post"...

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Posted By: sagard

A great collector contributes their knowledge to message boards freely and respectfully. What they have in their collection is secondary to me. Measuring great collections does not equate to measuring great collectors.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Dear Josh

Certainly the people you are referring to would be "great collectors"
of the items suggested...however, if you are looking at the macro
definition of a great collection...it would be difficult to argue
that there is not a role for condition.

We are not saying a PSA 9 1957 Topps set makes for a great collector..
it does, however, make for a great 1957 Topps collection.

If one were to look at the breadth and scope of the top 100 collectors,
most, certainly not all, attempted to obtain the best possible samples.

Of course, at a time when technology and communications were limited
and there were few dealers, virtually no auctions and certainly
no grading, standards for early hobbyists were a bit different.

No one would argue that Barker, Burdick and Nagy were not great
collectors. However, it the was breadth and scope of their
collection, and their contribution to the hobby that elevated their
status from a person with a very impressive collection to a great collector.

All the best,


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Thanks Bruce.


Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: DJ

I agree with all (except for Bruce's laughable opening statement) especially the passion and John's statement about the collecting gene.

People in my life don't collect and look at me like I'm insane. A great collector lives and breathes what he gathers.

Whether it be Pez dispenser's, twenty-five cent bottle caps or Cow Milk ceramics, money has NOTHING to do with being a great collector.


DJ

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

There are so many definitions of the word "great," that really all of the above responses hold true.

By definition, you can be a great collector by simply being a good person who collects things, or you can be a great collector by being an expert and having a world-class collection.

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Posted By: Jay

The dictionary defines collector as one who collects. I believe to be a great collector one must have, or have had, a great collection. So, in this respect I agree with Bruce. It need not be all encompassing or particularily valuable, just "great". If one is very knowledgeable about the hobby and a great teacher they are just that, but to be a great collector they must have the collection also. Like him or not, this is the reason Alan Rosen IMO is not a great collector---no collection.

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Posted By: leon

I will see your collection and up you 1. Here's a question for you. Can someone have a great collection and not be a great collector?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Have you all learned nothing from recent board activity? Clearly what makes a great collector is the total number of PSA 8s they own. There is a scale from 1 to 100 with 100 being "America's Toughest" and 1 being "Canada's Easiest."

Sadly, a 1983 Topps Tony Gwynn is all that keeps me from being entirely shut out in the world of card collecting greatness.

COLLECTOR: Ryan Christoff
GREATNESS RATING (1-100): 1

-Ryan

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Posted By: jay behrens

All you have to do is look at the PSA registry. I have no doubt there are "collectors" on that list that are more interested in the competition than the history and the story behind the cards and the players.

As was pointed out, it very easy to throw money at anything when you have it. The acquisition of knowledge about the cards you collect is much harder. Even with the internet, there are still collectors in all fields that collect because they think it is cool and some sort of status symbol, yet know almost nothing about what they collect outside the basics.

Leon, I'd apologize for the comment, but I can only take so much greatest, best, etc with that pompous attitude. The whole thread comes across as an ass kissing affair rather than something that could have been worthwhile. Maybe Bruce needs to spend some of the bank account on some courses on how to project a less pompous and arrogant attitude when he writes.

Another tip for Bruce, quit claiming it's not about the money. Every post you make IS about the money. When you understand that, you'll understand why most people on this board find your attitude distasteful.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, you have to admit one thing about Bruce: no coach of his would ever say to him that there is "no I in 'team'".

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Holy crap Ryan, do you own a PSA10 1983 Tony Gwynn Topps Rookie number 482 card? Suffice to say that I have more 10s than you do... ok, so they're SGC10s..... I'm just a "mediocre collector"....

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Posted By: Dan Lundrigan

Would Mr. Mint qualify as someone who has a great collection but is not a great collector!

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Posted By: barrysloate

To answer Leon's question, I suppose you could inherit a great collection and not be a great collector, but great collections are usually put together by people who know how to do it. In the old days when cards weren't that expensive and most of us were on a somewhat even playing field, it took resourcefulness and hard work to build a great collection. Today, it just takes a computer, an auction catalog, and a big wallet. You push a few buttons at 2:00 in the morning and voila, you have a great collection. Times certainly have changed.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Mr. Behrens pontificates endlessly, to plead his case
for the poor and starving collecting under-class.

He wears his anti-establishment badge of courage proudly.
Those who choose to work for a living and earn large incomes
are bad, and those who run away from responsibility and are
incapable of making money are special and should be treated accordingly,

One wonders whether Mr. Behrens would advocate a leftist
revolution and order that the great collections become state
property so they can be distributed among the poor, but
brilliant collectors who have so few cards but so much knowledge.

Perhaps, Mr. Behrens should move to a poor Muslim country
in Africa where his views on class warfare would be well received
and his $1500 lifetime expenditure on cards would be considered
Bill Gates-like.

The reality is that there were many great collections that were
built with relatively limited funds...but that was at a time, when
there were inefficient markets, poor communications and few
benchmarks for measuring value. It was a hobby based on trading
not buying and selling.

As best as we can tell, more than $650 million has been spent in
the past five years at baseball memoribilia auctions and on E-Bay.
Given that fact, how could any one build a great collection or be
a great collector without spending a reasonable amount of money?

Can you be a great collector and not have a collection? In fact, the
comment was made that Alan Rosen is not a great collector because
he does have a collection.

Mr. Behrens when you have finished chewing your tobacco, chew on
those thoughts for a while.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Alan

How about a definition of "greatest" that means "Best respect for a fellow collector" ie a collector who can only afford extremely low-grade raw cards in the bargin bins ? In other words, which of these big-time, high-end collectors will make time of day to be friendly & talk with to a poor slob like myself fishing thru the bargin bins ? That's the collector who should get "greatest collector" title !!!

Alan

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Posted By: John S

Oh boy...here we go again Serfs vs. Lords XXV.

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Posted By: DJ

Can someone have a great collection and not be a great collector?

That's an interesting question. Perhaps a "koan" of some sorts.

I have a friend of mine who was born in 1957 and recently got caught up in the whole PSA Registry. He has all the money in the world and therefore he wants to create a PSA 8,9 and 10.

Does he know what he is collecting? No. Does he know anything about baseball? Not really. All he knows is that he can create a better 1957 set than the others in the Registry.

He just collects for the sake of collecting and his interests aren't dedicated to one area, but scattered around. I bet he doesn't even know what he has. My best guess is that he'll give up and move on to something else in the near future and all that will be left of this venture is maybe fifty slabbed cards of players he doesn't know or really cares all that much about.

DJ

edit: I agree with Peter below. I hope Leon steps in and does something about this new trend of belittling the small dollar collector.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Although I don't always agree with him, I find his point of view and his candor refreshing, and I see no need to insult him with class-laden invective.

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Posted By: John S

I was a better collector when I was about twelve. I had stacks of books about cards and old baseball and football players. I knew all the stats and every card purchased was cherished. I used to stash '59 Topps football cards (the first vintage set I ever worked on) under the seat in my parents '75 Malibu Classic so I had something to look at when we were in transit. At 35 I still love the cards but they are much easier to come by and definitely not appreciated as much as they once were. No longer are they stashed in car but usually scanned, inventoried, and stowed away either in the closet or safety deposit box.

I think a great collector is someone who respects the hobby by sharing knowledge and realizing that no matter how many cards he/she has that they are no better than the young kid across the street opening packs of Topps.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, I see this thread is heading past 100 posts. Gentlemen, let the fighting begin!

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Removed out of respect for Leon.

Sometimes the truth is just too painful.

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Posted By: peter chao

Leon,

I'm glad you didn't decide to lock all divisive threads. The First Amendment is great and it's a lot of fun. Who knows, from reading this thread we may even have a better idea about what makes a great collector.

Peter

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Posted By: scott brockelman

The people that I know that I would put in the category all have 1 single thread that ties them together. Quite simply they collect each and every set in whatever grade they can find. Initially when serious collecting began in the early 20th century thru the 1980's even the entire focus was on filling holes and filling them all, with whatever they could find. By doing so in the course of 20-30 years these collectors managed to amass nearly every set in completeness from the commonest common to the toughest rarity. Along the way they also picked up lots of unknown material as well, they were/are truely hobby pioneers. There are several collectors that fall in this category, some you would recognize others you might not. Burdick would be a prime example.

Suffice it to say in this day and age with the inflated prices not many people would take on this lifetime undertaking and we see collectors with a much more focused approach.

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Posted By: Sean Coe

I've known only a few "great" collectors.The qualities they possesed are probably what it takes to great at anything. What they all had in common was a passion and joy when it came to this hobby and a willingness to reach out to anyone who felt the same way. They had amazing collections which they shared with me as well as the stories behind each piece but they were equally interested in helping me with my collecting. Yes, they were great people as well.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Bruce,

I think that Jay is trying to point out that many of the posts that you initiate seem to relate to collectors/investors that have seemlessly unlimited amounts of funds to pursue this hobby.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that there are a lot of collectors that only dream about having the resources that others have, yet their passion to collect is no less than those that are blessed with a lot of hobby funding. Those less fortunate collectors (myself included) like to think that we are great collectors because our passion for this hobby is immense. We love the history of the game and these little pieces of card board are the ties that bind us to the history. Whether the cards are beaters or absolute specimens they are what they are.

The bottom line is that people may not understand your basic posts. I do believe that it bothers some people because what little they do have is made to seem even more insignificant and their stature in the hobby minimally exceptional.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Jeff

Nothing to do with the thread, but whenever someone says "There is no "I" in team", the response invariably is "yes, but there is an "M E"

Max

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Posted By: DD

What is America's Toughest Want List anyway? I want a T-206 Wagner, a 1932 US Caramel Lindstrom, an N173 Bid McPhee (no one has one, but I believe it is sitting in someone's attic), and a Gypsy Queen set in PSA 10 only. Can I now claim the title?

In all seriousness, when you refer to people with a moniker, and use the royal "we" out of context, I don't think you can ever be considered great, and your judgment of greatness in others is also suspect.

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Posted By: ty_cobb

Having seen Max's collection, I'll nominate him.
Passion for collecting is the most important thing.
Happy Holidays Max!

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Posted By: Chris Counts

What makes a great collector? It depends on who you ask. I believe I was at my collecting best when I put all my cards in team order with rubber bands, had posters of Bob Gibson, Pete Rose, Brooks Robinson and Don Drysdale thumbtacked to the walls of my room, and obsessively tried to figure out when and where the next series of 132 new cards would show up ...

I get the sense there is a real populist sentiment on this board. Bruce's post on the great collectors, however sincere, is percieved by many as elitist. Yet these aren't exactly a bunch of bumpkins taking offense, but hardcore collectors seeking vintage material and often willing to pay big time for it ...

So what's the lesson here? For me, it's never forgetting why I started collecting cards in the first place. It's about the thrill of getting something new and unexpected. I remember pealing open my first-ever pack of cards and seeing Willie Davis staring back at me. He seemed larger than life, like an action hero. Yet he was a ballplayer, and as a big league ballplayer, he could do things — like run and hit and throw — that blew my nine-year-old mind. From this moment on, I was a collector ...

So what makes a great collector? For me a great collector still experiences the same excitement and joy from his (or her) cards decades after pealing open that first magical pack. And that same collector is willing and able to pass on some of that excitement and joy on to other collectors ...

By the way, I just put all my cards back in team order ... I'm still using rubber bands, but I also use top holders now!

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Posted By: Mark

"his $1500 lifetime expenditure on cards would be considered
Bill Gates-like"

And this folks, is why we have abortions.

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Posted By: Jay

Leon--Sorry, I just got back from a holiday party. Can someone have a great collection and not be a great collector? Barry certainly pointed out one example where this could happen but, assuming that the collection was built by them from scratch, I would answer probably not. The reason I feel this way is that a great collection does not mean the most valuable collection. Building a collection like that requires more than just money. It requires creativity and knowledge. With that in mind I would say that if one has built a great collection then they are a great collector.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bruce, you are the stupidest, supposedly smart person I've ever run across. Where in the world did you come up with that diatribe? I didn't mention a single thing that you mentioned in that post.

I have no problem with with people having money and all the other things you claim that I am against. What I am against is pompous, arrogant, I'm better than everyone else people like yourself.

Take a cue from people like Hal, JC and the myriad other wealthy people on this board that know how to act with some humility and decency towards others, regardless of what you might think their social status is.

You don't have a chance of rating as one of the great collectors because you have no passion for hobby. You have a passion for money and status. Hell, I may not like Jim Crandall much, but at least I can tell he has a real passion for the hobby, unlike you.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

Why is this so important to eveyone? My collection of card is the greatest. And so is eveyone else's.

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Once again Mr. Behrens chooses to create his own set of facts.

Whilst he may find our comments "pompous, elitist" etc..he has
no knowledge and/or understanding of our passion for and
dedication to the hobby.

Our first acquisition was in 1975. At that time, we made a concerted
effort to meet and interview of all the top collectors in the US
and the UK. We spent countless hours at their homes, and prepared
detailed questionnaires to garner an understanding of the history
of the hobby, the companies that issued the cards, and the early
interaction between collectors.

We neatly documented all of our findings and have to this day more
than 500 letters between legendary collectors about the history of the hobby.

We also tracked down the founders of Deloi\ng Gum, Goudey Gum
and played several rounds of golf with then CEO of Topps . The
purpose of this exercise was to gain a perspective on the history
of the hobby.

Finally, we visited well-known dealers who were nearing retirement
like Goodwin Goldfaden, Tom Collier etc to gain additional insight.
We were interviewed on a Walter Cronkite newscast and published
a cadre of articles.

At a time when we had a limited income, we made a concerted decision
to focus on acquiring the rarest cards we could afford in the best
possible condition.

Thirty years later, we continue our academic pursuit. Whilst we choose
to be private with regard to our efforts, we are certainly not shy
about expressing our opinions on a plethora of hobby issues.

Nor are we hesitant to combat those who attack us. It is particularly
interesting that the "Gopher with the Behren Mind "is so familiar
with both our collection and our finances. What might his source be?

Clearly he was banned from the Network 54 Board for good reason.
A lifetime ban would, in our opinion, be a cause for celebration


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List