"Pop" irritates me.....just a small rant....

[Leon]

Does anyone else get just a little annoyed whenever they hear the word "pop", regarding population? (and I realize this has to do with graded blah blah blah) Who the heck really knows what is out there? Quite some time ago, when I was selling my 19th century stuff, a friend/dealer asked me the "pop" of one of the super rare ones. He asked "what is the pop on it?" I said I think it is "there goes the weasel".

There were 2 known of that card.

[E93]

Originally Posted by Leon

There were 2 known of that card.

That is probably what he wanted to know.
JimB

[tedzan]

Leon

That is great....your sense of humor never ceases to amaze me.

From my perspective....this hobby does not live by Graded cards alone.

The "population report" (PR) system is "over-graded" (pun intended). There are many ungraded (high grade) cards out there that,
if their owners decided to get them graded, would shake up this PR system.

Not to mention the constant crossing-over of graded cards that skew the PR numbers.


T-Rex TED

[Leon]

Originally Posted by E93

That is probably what he wanted to know.
JimB

Yes Jim...and there is a Santa Claus.

btw, Jim....I did let him know about the "real" known population as well as what I thought about the word "pop".

[barrysloate]

It bothers me too, for any number of reasons. First, what we have is a hobby, something that should be enjoyed in one's leisure time. When I hear pop report, it makes that pleasure of collecting feel a little too much like Wall Street. Most collectors want to know the pop report to determine rarity and value. That sounds a little too investment oriented for me.

Second, I don't believe pop reports are accurate, and I think the information they provide is greatly manipulated. So many cards are resubmitted, information from one grading service does not translate to that of another (collectors will call a PSA card a "pop 1" when SGC might have graded two others at the same level), and it's human nature to fudge the truth, so I feel at times these population numbers are not even close to what's actually out there.

I know the registry collectors live and die by pop numbers, but the average collector doesn't care about them at all.

[HRBAKER]

It's a big tent, some folks are more numeral collecting oriented I guess. To me the whole notion that the pop report for most cards is reliable is flawed.

[barrysloate]

What annoys me the most about it is a seller's deliberate omission of cards graded at the same or higher level by other grading companies. I believe we had this discussion a few months back (or my memory is off), but a 1914 Cracker Jack set was being auctioned as the #1 set graded by PSA. That's great, and I'm sure it was a beautiful set. But shouldn't prospective bidders be told that the finest 1914 CJ set by far was graded by SGC, and that the winner will not own the finest set but the second finest one? Information like that is often conveniently left out of auction descriptions.

[Robextend]

Any pop report statement should be taken with a grain of salt keeping in mind that the system is extremely flawed

[Leon]

Barry,

I would hope, but am not certain, anyone spending $500,000 on a set of baseball cards has done some homework? If they haven't then PT Barnum was certainly correct.

[baseballart]

Leon

However, you surely don't prefer "Grandpa" (as in "grandpa's attic") to "Pop"?

Max

[Leon]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Leon

However, you surely don't prefer "Grandpa" (as in "grandpa's attic") to "Pop"?

Max

I always knew my "grandpa" as "Grandpa". I think he mostly had dust in his attic.
I just can't help it but every time I hear the word "pop" in our hobby I immediately think to myself "goes the weasel". I can't explain it but I wish I didn't do it. I think it might be because I have a disdain for that part of collecting. And I also have a disdain to always have to say "it's fine to collect plastic and by the number if that is what you enjoy" But I know if I don't then someone will rant about me letting collectors collect the way they want to (which I really am all for). Somehow I think I just said a whole lot about nuthin'.

[barrysloate]

Sure Leon, in the case of a 500K set, you would at least think prospective bidders would do their homework. But I picked an extreme example. What about a T-206 common, graded pop 1 of 1 by PSA, that has a higher example graded by SGC or Beckett? Not every last card will be researched. It's just a system that depends upon a certain amount of information being omitted for it to succeed.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

What about a T-206 common, graded pop 1 of 1 by PSA, that has a higher example graded by SGC or Beckett?

I have to laugh when I see a T206 description that states highest graded example or makes reference to the PSA Population Report. By PSA's own count they graded over 63,000 T206's without accounting for their back variation and are just listed as "Unknown."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

I have to laugh when I see a T206 description that states highest graded example or makes reference to the PSA Population Report. By PSA's own count they graded over 63,000 T206's without accounting for their back variation and are just listed as "Unknown."

Can you imagine if someone asked the "pop", and you said: 63,000

[glchen]

I think for many of us who ask about "pop," it's because we grew up collecting 80s cards where there was huge oversupply. Therefore, we're much more cautious about just how many cards are out there. I think most of us know about the weaknesses of the pop reports as stated above. However, knowing the pop figures can give us a general relative # to compare other cards too. For example, if you collect a higher grade card, which has low pop, that is most likely going to be able to stand up as the pop increases as opposed to lower grade cards. You can also get a general idea of which sets are scarcer than others.

[tbob]

The flaw in the "pop" system is that certain cards are graded much more often than others so it appears that certain commons are very tough when they may not be. An example is in the C46 Imperial Tobacco card set. If you look at the number of Gandils which have been graded you would think that card is 5 or 6 times as frequently encountered as one of the commons. The truth is that not many people are collecting the whole set and/or slabbing the whole set for registry purposes. Also you have to factor in that type collectors and/or sellers are trying to get the highest grades possible so they are being re-submitted, etc.
Pop reports are useful but should be taken with a grain of salt.

[tbob]

And of course with certain sets, like the early pre-war PCL various sets, until recently not many of the cards were slabbed. They were in the hands of collectors who rarely sent cards in for grading. Thus the "pop" results are very skewed.

[teetwoohsix]

I bought into the "pop" thing one time with this card. It was listed on ebay as the only one graded by SGC (this front/back combo). Checked the PSA "pop" report and they only had one graded with this front/back combo and it was graded "poor"............I thought it was my chance to own (what I thought at the time was) a very scarce card.

So I win the card, some time goes by, and I find out there was another one graded by SGC a 40 !!! Found out from another board member who had owned it at one time. Then, I find out about another-* owned by a different board member at one time.

Then, maybe a couple of months ago saw another being sold on ebay.

I still love this card, but I decided buying a card that is described as "low pop" or "only one known graded" and all that jazz isn't going to get me to buy a card. Now I'll just buy the card because I need it to fill the spot in the collection. Snap, Crackle, Pop.

Clayton

[Al C.risafulli]

It doesn't bother me, there are all sorts of weird terms and abbreviations in our hobby. People still refer to "busting wax" when there haven't been wax packs in ages. They call cards "cabinets" that are not cabinets. They call cards "errors" or "variations" that are not true errors or variations. They approach dealers at tables who have cards clearly marked with prices and ask "What's the best you can do on this?" It's all part of the charm of this hobby, I guess.

In terms of the value of pop reports, I don't think it takes much experience in the hobby to understand how deeply flawed they can be. I also think that when used properly, they can be an excellent tool to HELP a collector understand the scarcity of a card.

It's just important, I think, to understand all the things that might artificially skew the numbers in a pop report.

Once I had a set listed on a registry, and I retired the set. Before I did, I went into the comments on each card and listed what the current population was of each card in that grade, along with how many had been graded higher. It's fun to look at now and then, just to see how many cards in that set were once condition scarcities that are now just regular-old cards. Gives me perspective.

-Al

[sox1903wschamp]

"Pop" does not bother me as much as another 3 letter saying in the hobby: "SMR". Now that Acronym gives me a bad case of stink eye.

[Rob D.]

I can't hear or read the word penultimate without breaking out in laughter.

[mybuddyinc]

Leon,

You and I have similar thought patterns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfYoNPJcN30

..... although, some times my minds goes in this direction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDU6T...eature=related

Scott

[ctownboy]

When I read people on this board talking about "pop" reports, I too, think about it as a business term.

As far as the word "pop" goes, I don't think about "the weasel" but I think about soft drinks.

Growing up in a small town in southern Indiana, most everyone there called a soft drink a "coke". When going to the store or the concession stand, someone might ask you to get them a "coke" and you would then, in turn, ask, "what kind?". They might respond "Coke" or they might say, "Pepsi", "Dr. Pepper", "Mello Yellow", "Mr. Pibb", "Big Red", etc.

When I went to college at IU in Bloomington, most people there said "pop" or soft drink instead of the generic "coke".

So now, when I hear the term "pop report" I think somebody is wanting some type of detailed written report on a soft drink then I remember they are talking about cards......

David

[uffda51]

I've always associated the word "pop" with the south because my knowledge of the south as a kid came from watching The Andy Griffith show. Andy and Barney were often known to buy a bottle of "pop." My friend who grew up in Milwaukee always used the term "soda" instead of pop or soft drink. Egg creams have actual soda in them, but neither eggs nor cream. What were we talking about again?

[HBroll]

Growing up in NE Ohio, we always referred to soft drinks as "pop" too. That encompassed ANY carbonated soft drink. Like David said, you would have to ask them what kind of "pop" they wanted.

Of course in the card world, it has a totally different meaning.

[Leon]

I don't know about "pop" being used to describe a soda as everything I ever heard growing up in Texas was a "coke". Then we would always ask what kind? Personally I like Diet Dr.Pepper as my coke of choice. I always thought the usage of "pop" was for northerners.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by HBroll

Growing up in NE Ohio, we always referred to soft drinks as "pop" too. That encompassed ANY carbonated soft drink.

Growing up on the East Coast (Boston), carbonated beverages were called "tonic". When I was 16, my family moved to Kansas City and I learned about "pop". Well before grading services

[jcmtiger]

Soft drinks in Michigan were always known as "Pop".

joe

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know about "pop" being used to describe a soda as everything I ever heard growing up in Texas was a "coke". Then we would always ask what kind? Personally I like Diet Dr.Pepper as my coke of choice. I always thought the usage of "pop" was for northerners.

Growing up in Alabama, it was "Co-cola", which was of course short for Coca-Cola.

[barrysloate]

Do you know I may be the only person left in America who has never had a Coca Cola? I've had a sip of it, and that's it. Never drank a can or glass of the stuff in my life.

[baseballart]

Barry

Now, if you'd said you'd never had a sip of Fresca, I wouldn't have been surprised....

[barrysloate]

No coke, no pepsi, no ginger ale, no fresca...no nothing (okay, I've had cream soda). But I'm a cold water guy.

[skooter]

Barry, that makes your "pop" 1 of 1.

[Rob D.]

Jeff,

Can you redistribute some of your Coca-Cola to Barry, please?

[Jacklitsch]

When I was growing up in North Carolina in the 50's we referred to a soft drink as "drink".

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Do you know I may be the only person left in America who has never had a Coca Cola? I've had a sip of it, and that's it. Never drank a can or glass of the stuff in my life.

That's quite an accomplishment! A day rarely goes by that I don't have one.

But I have avoided consuming any adult beverages.

[E93]

We all know of the distortions in graded pop reports. One way in which the info is manipulated that particularly pisses me off is when a seller will advertise a particular card, like a T206 X common Sovereign in PSA 7 as the highest graded example. They fail to mention that there are six Piedmont 8's and six Sweet Cap 8s, etc. or that there may have been even Sovereign 8s graded before PSA kept track of backs. PSA had graded 10,000s of T206s before they started accounting for backs in their pop reports.
JimB

[Al C.risafulli]

Barry, that explains a lot. See, only after one has had a carbonated soda beverage like Coke can one truly "bring the noise," as it were.

al

[lharri3600]

i'm always shocked how some love to use the pop report when they are selling, but when buying, the pop report means nothing!! i don't put much stock in a pop report. my reason is this, to many case crackers in the hobby. just my $0.02. Merry Christmas

[lharri3600]

ok leon,
be careful!

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know about "pop" being used to describe a soda as everything I ever heard growing up in Texas was a "coke". Then we would always ask what kind? Personally I like Diet Dr.Pepper as my coke of choice. I always thought the usage of "pop" was for northerners.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Do you know I may be the only person left in America who has never had a Coca Cola? I've had a sip of it, and that's it. Never drank a can or glass of the stuff in my life.

You don't like concoctions made of sugar and chemicals? How un-American.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You don't like concoctions made of sugar and chemicals? How un-American.

It's something with the flavor, and the carbonation. Can't stomach the stuff.