Did I buy a Fake Marquard Signed T206?

[canjond]

Man all of those Williams down the line look like they were signed with the same type of pen as the Marquard.

[Bpm0014]

Now to only find out who purchased it/submitted it....

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe the sale is on VCP? We could see the seller and buyer, or at least it's a start. I'm not sure worth point had than info

[calvindog]

This is why you have to be insane to spend a lot of money on a "signed" card.

[Leon]

I am told by a very reliable source that the autograph was authenticated by Jimmy Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Leon

I am told by a very reliable source that the autograph was authenticated by Jimmy Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office.

Can your source find out if all of the William autos were in the same group being submitted.

[Bigdaddy]

As someone said above, kudos to SGC on this one. And Manny also.

Very interesting to see where this trail leads. So much info is available or stored electronically these days, and with the short time frame from PSA encapsulated card to defaced T206, I would be surprised if a trail of ownership can't be put together shortly.

I'm going to have to binge watch this thread like a new season of 'Stranger Things'.

[theshleps]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I found another card, auctioned off in 2017 at Sig auctions, with the signature in almost exactly the same spot, with the same angle and starting/ending position. Very suspicious. Take a look: http://auction.sigauctions.com/rube_...-lot62562.aspx.

I own that one from sig auctions and also this one which is somewhat similar. I believe I had both recently authenticated. I do not expect authenticators to be 100% but this finding is disturbing. What do you folks think of these 2?? If you look at all the ones Paul posted on T206 collector maybe half a dozen fit the pattern to some extent
Marquard 1909 T-206 A-2 Sweet Caporal.jpg

Marquard 1909 T-206 B-1 sweet caporal 350.jpg

[Leon]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Can your source find out if all of the William autos were in the same group being submitted.

He said they were not. It is a completely different source.

[T206Collector]

Autograph collecting is a scary hobby, and this kind of revelation can shock it to the core. But it’s not any more scary to me than dealing in unsigned but valuable pre-war cards, which are susceptible to fraud as well (see Mastro Wagner).

Hopefully this kind of discovery will help strengthen the hobby in the long run by reminding us all how careful you have to be. Provenance is important, but hard to find in many cases. On the valuable ones, I try to have more than one authenticator review the item. But as long as authenticators are human they will make mistakes.

The sad irony of our hobby - cards and autographs - is that if PSA or JSA say the item isn’t good, then it doesn’t even matter if you pulled the card from a pack, or got the signature yourself in person. If a card doctor or forger is successful, the item gains an unjustified legitimacy as long as we continue to buy the holder not the card.

I’ll be updating the signed T206 Marquard pages to remove this one, and possibly the other one done in exactly the same spot and angle described here. It’s a damn shame, but the prevalence of signed T206 Marquards earning $1,000+ hammer prices appears to have invited forgers into this game. Marquard’s is such a common signature it is apparently all the more likely to pass the glazed eyes of a third-party authenticator.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Marquard’s is such a common signature it is apparently all the more likely to pass the glazed eyes of a third-party authenticator.

Apparently some moreso than others

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by theshleps

I own that one from sig auctions and also this one which is somewhat similar. I believe I had both recently authenticated. I do not expect authenticators to be 100% but this finding is disturbing. What do you folks think of these 2?? If you look at all the ones Paul posted on T206 collector maybe half a dozen fit the pattern to some extent
Attachment 335411

Attachment 335412

I like both of these still Michael. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that yours was the original source of the faked one. It may very well be near identical for that reason — the fake one looks slower and sloppier, as if traced or copied from yours. The baseline angles and starting points illustrated in a post earlier in this thread supports this theory.

[tmw2ward]

He died in 1980 at the age of 94. Wouldn't the sharpie signature be the first clue that this card was likely faked?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

You could make the same argument for every autograph ever signed that you don't know the authenticity unless you witness it signed yourself. With that said, there are many many techniques to prove an autograph authentic.

"Prove"?

I respectfully disagree.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by tmw2ward

He died in 1980 at the age of 94. Wouldn't the sharpie signature be the first clue that this card was likely faked?

Sharpies were introduced to the world in 1964.

http://global.sharpie.com/en-CA/about-us

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by Leon

He said they were not. It is a completely different source.

One of those williams is in this months clean sweep auction... something doesnt smell right here

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

"Prove"?



I respectfully disagree.



Doug

Yeah, you're probably right. I was reaching a little there LOL

[The Nasty Nati]

It makes you wonder if there are Larry Doyle auto fakes out there too. Certainly not as valuable as a HOFer, but those tend to go for $1k+ now.

[HercDriver]

Not only is it embarrassing to JSA, but I would say kudos to the guys at SGC for being able to nail it without having the proof behind it. They did their homework, instead of relying on a pice of paper. Nice work, SGC!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

It makes you wonder if there are Larry Doyle auto fakes out there too. Certainly not as valuable as a HOFer, but those tend to go for $1k+ now.

I'm sure there are -- but I have not seen any that I thought were suspicious. They're all signed in blue ballpoint, and look reasonably similar. Marquards, for whatever reason, have more variation -- and there has been plenty of evidence that certain versions may have been wife-signed.

Keep in mind that 10 of the 26 known Doyles all came from the same collection that was sold in "The Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards" in 2007. Only 4 of the 50+ known Marquards came from that collection. Marquard, being a Hall of Famer, signed a whole lot more stuff and is more susceptible to forgery.

[theshleps]

Quote from T206 collector-I’ll be updating the signed T206 Marquard pages to remove this one, and possibly the other one done in exactly the same spot and angle described here.

I am hoping mine got from sig auctions and posted here was just the autograph the other with the photomatched card copied from as to angle, etc. since we do not have the exact presigned card located. Sometimes when I find out things like this I ewant to just sell the whole collection, depressing. I don't blame JSA. Even the Mayo clinic admits that physicians diagnosis is incorrect at least 20+% of the time. Mistakes will be made- it is just knowing that JSA, PSA etc are only opinions and much of the time by knowledgable folks.

[Fred]

You have to give SGC credit for not authenticating it, even with the JSA cert.

It will be interesting how this all shakes out.


Cliff,

If there is no investigation because Cleansweep refunded the money, then that will be sad. I would also request a refund for the money spent to have it authenticated by SGC. That only seems fair. Somehow I get the feeling you won't have any problem collecting that fee.

[Marslife]

Well…. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story…

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly…. What an awesome response to my “CALL FOR HELP!” I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped…. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening…. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS – Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

[CuriousGeorge]

Now let’s see if they’re going to actually do something about this or just sweep it under the rug and allow all of the other forgeries this guy got authenticated to sell.

[gregr2]

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by gregr2

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

...and arrested.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by gregr2

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

Going forward that is good but what about what is already out there? Was this the first time they were able to get an item through?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Marslife

Well…. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story…

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly…. What an awesome response to my “CALL FOR HELP!” I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped…. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening…. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS – Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

Cliff,

Great to see that you were made whole.

Unfortunately, buying a forgery has become a rite of passage in the autograph hobby. After you buy a few, your eyes will be much more calibrated and able to detect fakes.

The lesson to be learned here is to be a little more skeptical.

[CuriousGeorge]

The lesson I’ve learned here is to treat anything authenticated by Jim Spence about the same as I would by Homer Simpson. Why in the world would anyone trust any authenticatication he does when in mere minutes a member of this board was able to determine it a forgery? Are they really that lazy? I think I know the answer to my own question. While it’s wonderful the purchaser is made whole and presumably the bad guy is going to easily be able to be tracked down and hopefully prosecuted, that still leaves us with the shoddy work of Jim Spence. Should each of his authentication letters now come with a caveat that he is about 80% sure the autograph is for real?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Unfortunately, buying a forgery has become a rite of passage in the autograph hobby. After you buy a few, your eyes will be much more calibrated and able to detect fakes.

The lesson to be learned here is to be a little more skeptical.

This is great advice. I have been burned a few times on signed T206s that I wanted to believe were real -- and then learned were not and why. A JSA LOA is usually as solid as it gets, but as I said above, on the higher value ones, I try to have more than one authenticator review the item. I usually get LOAs from JSA and then encapsulation by SGC, which is basically what you tried to do here. I haven't been burned yet by an SGC rejection of a JSA-approved item, but I do know that when I offer to include JSA LOAs with items to SGC that they don't want them. It seems they do, in fact, make an independent assessment, which I agree they deserve credit for here.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Now let’s see if they’re going to actually do something about this or just sweep it under the rug and allow all of the other forgeries this guy got authenticated to sell.

Right -

Is all of this going to just disappear as if nothing happened?

That would be unfortunate. Let's all "ostrich up" and bury our heads in the sand now.

How do we call out Clean Sweep and JSA? They really need to provide some insight and answers to this - at least to let us know what they're doing to prevent this crap from occurring again.

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by Fred

Right -

Is all of this going to just disappear as if nothing happened?

That would be unfortunate. Let's all "ostrich up" and bury our heads in the sand now.

How do we call out Clean Sweep and JSA? They really need to provide some insight and answers to this - at least to let us know what they're doing to prevent this crap from occurring again.

I'm not sure why this should be an indictment of Clean Sweep. Sounds like they had one of the most reputable autograph authenticators validate the auto personally, and he made a mistake. No auction house is going to refute the opinion of a top authenticator, even knowing that person is fallible. So what has Clean Sweep done wrong here to this point?

[egbeachley]

Can it be determined from the Worthpojnt site who the buyer or seller was?

[rhettyeakley]

The buyer/forger/consignor should be held accountable. That is such a small window between being purchased, then forged and then consigned to Clean Sweep. This is what is needed to stop this sort of thing from happening. I really do hope that someone is held responsible, things get swept under the rug too easily in this hobby.

[Republicaninmass]

I didnt read it all...again but

Were there consecutive cert numbers with other cards from JSA? After the DiMaggio ball?


There were were some signed in a similar felt tip?

Some ended up at clean sweep?


They came from different sources....doubtful

There is no such thing as coincidences

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Can it be determined from the Worthpojnt site who the buyer or seller was?

No, I tried to figure out who the seller was, but eBay scrubs all auction records after 90 days and it's impossible to access the listing after that.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I'm not sure why this should be an indictment of Clean Sweep. Sounds like they had one of the most reputable autograph authenticators validate the auto personally, and he made a mistake. No auction house is going to refute the opinion of a top authenticator, even knowing that person is fallible. So what has Clean Sweep done wrong here to this point?

James, you read that wrong. There was no indication in the post that says anything about wrong doing by either Clean Sweep or JSA. The point is that Clean Sweep and JSA should not just "ignore this". They need to go after the perp of the crime. Yes, I would believe this is a crime.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

The buyer/forger/consignor should be held accountable. That is such a small window between being purchased, then forged and then consigned to Clean Sweep. This is what is needed to stop this sort of thing from happening. I really do hope that someone is held responsible, things get swept under the rug too easily in this hobby.

+10

[CuriousGeorge]

The only indictment on Clean Sweep is that they are the ones with all of the information so let’s see how they choose to deal with it. Their reputation is on the line and if they choose to do nothing it would be tough to make a case for buying from them again.

[puckpaul]

I have dealt extensively with Clean Sweep and Steve Verkman for thirty years and i would put his integrity at the top of the industry. I trust him above all others. Things happe to all. Steve has honored his word for years and if a mistake is made he has always done the right thing.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

No, I tried to figure out who the seller was, but eBay scrubs all auction records after 90 days and it's impossible to access the listing after that.

This is the ebay seller of the card on Feb 7 2018 before the fake signature.
If anyone knows who this is maybe they can contact him/her and find
out who purchased it from them.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/teri781?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

[Fred]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

I have dealt extensively with Clean Sweep and Steve Verkman for thirty years and i would put his integrity at the top of the industry. I trust him above all others. Things happe to all. Steve has honored his word for years and if a mistake is made he has always done the right thing.

I've found that some people on the board don't like Verkman, why - I don't know.

I, for one, trust his auctions because I've bid many times without my max bid being reached. I think more than anything Steve would want to clear this up so that nobody will have any reservations about bidding in the Clean Sweep auctions.

As far as JSA goes - if the submitter wasn't Clean Sweep, then I sure hope they cough up some information on this.

Note that there was about 3 weeks between the time JSA authenticated the signature and the start of the auction.

[Republicaninmass]

Teri781 has never responded to my emails to Theresas email account

I trust Verkman as well, but was a little surprised when he sent me this


" We do make it explicitly clear in our auction rules that we only use and recognize JSA for these lots and that if you want to use another authenticator, to do so before bidding. Also given the nature of selling larger autographed lots, we do also make it very clear in our rules that any lot with 10 or more cards can have secretarial autographs.

I hope the other cards can make up the difference for you.

Thanks much and sorry again for issue - Steve"


6 of the "scarce" cards they specified in the lot failed psa or sgc, and one came back as unable to render from JSA, when it had a JSA auction LOA

[conor912]

I sometimes think that spending as much as we do on baseball cards is nuts, but you have to be a special kind of batshit crazy to spend big money on autographs.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Pat R

This is the ebay seller of the card on Feb 7 2018 before the fake signature.
If anyone knows who this is maybe they can contact him/her and find
out who purchased it from them.

https://www.ebay.com/usr/teri781?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

My tablet won’t work at the moment but usually I can scroll down feedback to just after the sale data and see who gave feedback or if seller gave it. Plus isn’t there an offline program that tracks feedback?

[MichelaiTorres83]

I recall a story from a national goer where someone buying an autographed t206 from them with just the letter also had an identical problem. It was submitted to PSA for grading and they rejected it.

This person was essentially told tough crap because it came with the letter. Find it funny how when standing at a table in front of them their answer was vastly different for the exact same issue then when called out on here.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

My tablet won’t work at the moment but usually I can scroll down feedback to just after the sale data and see who gave feedback or if seller gave it. Plus isn’t there an offline program that tracks feedback?

I couldn't find where the buyer left feedback but the seller did.
The only thing I know about the buyer from this is that he/she has
feedback between 10,000-24,999 so they do a fair amount of buying/selling
on ebay.

img772.jpg

[egbeachley]

You mean a fair amount of scamming. The f***f buyer should be easy to find with all the sellers on this site.

[Republicaninmass]

Great work guys, now let's see if we can find him. I've never sold anything to him. I can try reaching out to Teri, but again, they have never responded.

[Leon]

All of this rabbit hole searching for the forger and, even if you find the rabbit (forger), there isn't a snowball's chance in hell you get any authority to care about this. Autograph forgery is very, very difficult to prosecute. And authorities don't seem to care too much unless it's headlines grabbing stuff. Good luck and I hope the scammer does get caught or at least have really bad Karma >