Latest card grading scam

[RobertGT]

I just wanted to alert the group to something that just happened to me for the first time in 10 years of selling on eBay.

I sold a card, graded PSA 8.5, at a pretty reasonable price of $35 to a buyer in California. A couple of days later he e-mails me saying the card arrived with a crack in the holder. The case was perfect when it left my hands - in fact the card had only been graded a couple of weeks earlier by PSA. I sent it via USPS in a bubble mailer, with it marked "FRAGILE" in several places. But I told him to go ahead and return the card to me anyway for a refund.

So I got the card back today, and what I see is a very large diagonal crack across the front and a smaller diagonal crack in the middle of the reverse. I'm looking at these cracks, and they look like obvious pressure cracks to me -- as if someone put the card in a vise in an effort to break it out and resubmit it to PSA, perhaps hoping to get a 9. The difference between an 8.5 and 9 on this particular card is about $350.

I showed the card to a grading expert of mine, and he agrees this is how such cracks likely occurred - from torquing the vise too tightly. Also, there is no movement of the card inside the holder because the plastic is now pressed up against the card.

Sorry to go on forever, but has anyone ever heard of the USPS/UPS etc. causing cracks such as this in a PSA holder?
I don't want to identify the buyer right now as I have no proof this is what happened, but it seems very, very suspicious.

Thanks,
Rob

[CMIZ5290]

Been mailing thru those guys for years, never heard of anything like that. I think you need to get ebay involved.

[JLange]

I received this PSA 8 hockey card a few years back, shipped in a plain envelope with no protection, from Canada to my house outside Philly. Something happened in shipment, and it broke the holder in half and nearly tore the card in two! Its possible your card was damaged in shipment, too.

[hangman62]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

I just wanted to alert the group to something that just happened to me for the first time in 10 years of selling on eBay.

I sold a card, graded PSA 8.5, at a pretty reasonable price of $35 to a buyer in California. A couple of days later he e-mails me saying the card arrived with a crack in the holder. The case was perfect when it left my hands - in fact the card had only been graded a couple of weeks earlier by PSA. I sent it via USPS in a bubble mailer, with it marked "FRAGILE" in several places. But I told him to go ahead and return the card to me anyway for a refund.

So I got the card back today, and what I see is a very large diagonal crack across the front and a smaller diagonal crack in the middle of the reverse. I'm looking at these cracks, and they look like obvious pressure cracks to me -- as if someone put the card in a vise in an effort to break it out and resubmit it to PSA, perhaps hoping to get a 9. The difference between an 8.5 and 9 on this particular card is about $350.

I showed the card to a grading expert of mine, and he agrees this is how such cracks likely occurred - from torquing the vise too tightly. Also, there is no movement of the card inside the holder because the plastic is now pressed up against the card.

Sorry to go on forever, but has anyone ever heard of the USPS/UPS etc. causing cracks such as this in a PSA holder?
I don't want to identify the buyer right now as I have no proof this is what happened, but it seems very, very suspicious.

Thanks,
Rob

Rob,
That seems like quite a leap of faith..saying that because it had cracks in the middle..somone put it in a vise and wanted to resubmit it to PSA for a half a grade higher ??..how about it was accidently smashed by careless UPS handlers

[RobertGT]

It has possible that I am getting to be so cynical from reading so many negative articles that I'm starting to think everything could be a scam. I certainly hope that wasn't the case, and if others have had similar shoddy handing from the USPS, then perhaps it was simply just that.

That card from Canada is really quite horrible. Sorry that happened!

[vintagechris]

First, if he emailed you just a couple days after you sent it, he couldn't have resubmitted could he? Maybe I am just reading wrong also.

Secondly, I have received graded cards in bubble mailers with the cases cracked twice. It's best to wrap it in bubble wrap also, or I actually put the card in a small bubble mailer and then put that bubble mailer in a larger bubble mailer and I have never had one damaged.

[bbcard1]

Isn't the term card grading scam sort of redundant?

[mintacular]

You really need to sandwich graded psa/sgc cards between two heavy pieces of cardboard---putting them in a padded mailer only is not enough. Also, marking the mailer "fragile" has little to no effect how that package is handled behind closed doors in the post office.

I received a cracked SGC card that was in a padded mailer before (likely marked fragile)...

[ethicsprof]

sorry to hear about your situation.
Pat's point is correct about the bubble mailers imho--
i've received a couple of rough ones via this mode and they had some problems. Certainly not as severe as what you've gone through, though.

best,
barry

[theseeker]

UPS is now no better than the USPO. And good luck getting your money back from them on a collectable. They will put you through the hoops in varifying the value.

[makersmarkambassador]

Hey easy on the UPS cracks. I have to back up my employer. But you are correct, some of the hub workers tend to get carried away with boxes.

[Bilko G]

I personally have received at least 5 cracked PSA cases thru the mail as well, it happens.

[iggyman]

Mr. Jeffrey Lichtman, sir...........I'm calling you out! This is your fault buddy! The 21th century baseball card collector is in a state of extreme agitation and is no thanks to you. Todays baseball card collector is disproportionately burdened with unseen threats of trimmed cards, shill bidding, FBI investigations, chemically botox cards, substandard grading companies, OM black overprint backs, poor eBay management, fake holders, fake cards, fake auctions, etc. etc. etc. How many more serious collectors will have to quit the hobby after being subject to your negativity??? Please, I'm begging you, put a stop to this madness and finally say something nice about what is supposed to be a pleasurable pastime. Come on man, you can do it!

Lovely Day...

[vintagetoppsguy]

The original post either makes no sense to me or perphaps I am just not understanding or missing something.

Is the card itself damaged or not?

If the card is not damaged, why wouldn't the buyer have finished removing it from the slab after he cracked it? What would be the point of cracking the case, just to send it back to you? If the card is not damaged, just send it back to PSA and they will re-holder it for $5.

If the card is damaged, then perhaps the buyer did try to crack it out, damaged the card in the process and just sent it back hoping you would refund his money. Not saying that is what happened, but your suspicion could be correct.

Either way, as Pat stated, any graded card should be shipped sandwiched between 2 pieces of heavy cardboard. If you're not doing that, you may was well be sending it in a PWE. Postal machines are brutal on bubble mailers. I have received a few graded cards that were cracked during shipping. Most just had pressure cracks, but I have received one like shown in the pics on page 1 where the case was cracked in 2 separate pieces and the card was damaged.

[chaddurbin]

the whole OP is very confusing and convoluted.

my take: try packing better instead of thinking you got scammed (over $35).

and "grading expert" is an oxymoron.

...and UPS is the absolute worst. GAI-level competency to put it in terms grading experts here can understand.

[FrankWakefield]

Upon reflection I'd think I've bought about 50 or so cards that were graded. Only once did the holder arrive cracked. So the OP's card could have broken that way.

On the card I got that was cracked, if it occurred during mailing, it did not seem to have affected the card. And it was no big deal to me because I was going to bust the card out anyway.

Folding corrugated cardboard around a slabbed card before putting it in bubble wrap would be a good way to ship. Like James just said. That is significantly more secure than just bubble wrap. And, if that's done then maybe the holder doesn't have a bunch of magic tape gobbed to it. I do not like magic tape, Sam I am.

[RobertGT]

Perhaps I should have been clearer. Yes I believe the card itself has been damaged, as there are now two pretty severe looking cracks pressing the plastic case directly onto the surface of the card.

I haven't broken the card out to determine exactly, but I'm fairly certain there would at least be a minor scratch on the surface - which is why the buyer returned the card to me. This means a card graded 8.5 is probably at best a 6 now.

Also, I did ship the card between two pieces of cardboard. They were not "heavy duty" as in plywood - but cardboard cut from a regular USPS shipping box. And I still got two major cracks.

So you tell me - scam or not?

[insidethewrapper]

I've had one card in a PSA holder damaged via USPS and it was in a bubble mailer. It was completely cracked from side to side. The dealer I bought it from took it back and replaced it with other cards on my wantlist. So it does happen on occasion.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by RobertGT

Perhaps I should have been clearer. Yes I believe the card itself has been damaged, as there are now two pretty severe looking cracks pressing the plastic case directly onto the surface of the card.

I haven't broken the card out to determine exactly, but I'm fairly certain there would at least be a minor scratch on the surface - which is why the buyer returned the card to me. This means a card graded 8.5 is probably at best a 6 now.

Also, I did ship the card between two pieces of cardboard. They were not "heavy duty" as in plywood - but cardboard cut from a regular USPS shipping box. And I still got two major cracks.

So you tell me - scam or not?

You’ll probably never know either way. At this point, you should just probably remove the card from the holder.

Examine the card closely and if it looks to be undamaged, send it in again for re-grading. Who knows, maybe this time it will come back a 9?

If it looks damaged, chalk it up as a loss, block the bidder and move on.

[DICKTOWLE]

I have received 2 cards from the USPO that were cracked- it can happen

[JasonL]

he simply returned a damaged card to you. If that is the case, what does he get out of it?

Is it the same card you sent him, or has it been switched, and then put into a cracked slab, seeking reimbursement?

[Exhibitman]

I sold one card several years ago that the buyer said arrived in a broken PSA holder. I had him send it back with the envelope. Son of a gun if there wasn't a diagonal break in the holder and a diagonal tire track across the envelope. The mailman must've dropped it and driven over it! Funny thing was, the card had only one hairline crease and I sold it raw for more than the lost sale.

[buymycards]

A bubble mailer just doesn't cut it for a graded card. You need to sandwich the slab between two heavy pieces of cardboard, then put the whole works in the bubble mailer. The mailer alone doesn't provide any protection for the plastic slab without additional reinforcement.

Marking the package "fragile" is fine. The acceptance clerk will handle it gently, and the delivery person will handle it gently, but the machines along the way that process thousands of parcels per hour may damage the card. Also, the way that local Post Offices receive parcels in the morning can also contribute to damage. We receive several large hampers, some of them with hundreds of the small parcels that are mixed in with larger parcels sitting on top and that small parcel on the bottom may have several hundred pounds of mail sitting on top of it.

Rick

[barrysloate]

I always use two pieces of foamcore board when I send a single graded card in an envelope. I've still had a couple of them break in transit.

[Jewish-collector]

Just send it registered mail next time.

[M's_Fan]

You will really never know if the customer did it or not, but my suspicion is that he didn't do it. I would just refund the money and move on, and pack better next time.

This does make me think I need to pack the expensive cards better...

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by JasonL

he simply returned a damaged card to you. If that is the case, what does he get out of it?

Is it the same card you sent him, or has it been switched, and then put into a cracked slab, seeking reimbursement?

Not really a scam, per se. But it appears as though it was purchased to be resubmitted. But during the process of removing the card he damaged it. Instead of taking the loss he decided on a refund.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I've received one that was cracked in half and upon closer inspection I could see where the holder was deformed as if the plastic had melted slightly. When I showed the damaged holder and the mailer to the people at the post office one guy said with quite a bit of certainty that it appeared as if someone tried to run it through a scanning machine for flat items and it got stuck among some hot machinized parts inside the scanner and that's why the plastic sagged a bit.

[SteveMitchell]

It has been mentioned that a padded envelope is insufficient protection for slabs. I agree. Boxing is the only way to reasonably assure that slabbed cards will arrive intact - and they are still subject to the usual crushing or loss.

Two years ago I received TWO PSA slabbed Hall of Fame metallic plaque-cards in a padded envelope. BOTH slabs were snapped in two and the metallic plaque-cards ruined!

Boxes are the only way to reasonably assure safe delivery, and even then nothing is guaranteed.

[mintacular]

I think there is a false security of the "padded mailer". It makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside that you put a card in this mailer but if you look at it objectively, does that mailer REALLY add enough cushion to prevent a heavy item from crushing the article inside it?

As stated, behind closed doors padded mailers (even those marked "fragile" chuckle...) are potentially tossed around carelessly, dumped by certain machines with other heavy boxes, etc., or worse yet run through quickly via a mail machine with heavy belts, etc.

A few months ago I received a graded cards from Joes Vintage on eBay (a $40 t205 common VG) and was a bit surprised that it came in a 400 ct set box and apparently he has learned the lesson the hard way...

My guess is that 10-20% of of graded cards put in a padded mailer are cracked/damaged in the process. You can sandwich them with cardboard to knock that % down probably well below 5%. Yet the only sure-fire way is to send it in a cardboard box. JMO