N172 Old Judge Question

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Posted By: Dave

I know there are premiums with spotted tie varieties and California teams and such....any other premiums? Aren't there a few horizontal pictured cards? Do these carry any premium? What about strange poses as well?

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Posted By: barrysloate

A horizontal pose usually will sell for a bit of a premium, but it would be hard to put it in the same category as a California League card, as those are major rarities that typically sell in the 100K range. Another type that achieves a premium is the "mini", those with smaller pictures surrounded by wide borders. Not sure there are any strange poses, however.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Sometimes the two player/two name cards sell for a bit more. Also the Players League cards usually sell for a premium. Mostly the premiums are paid for the difficult players and poses that are known by the hardcore collectors of the set. I am sure the collectors of the set can give more info-if you can pry it out of them.

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Posted By: Dave

the only California league player card I've seen sold was a San Francisco player back in 2002. The guy who sold it was a neighbor of my parents. He sold the card to a old time collector and baseball historian who lives around Dayton somewhere. Selling price was only $3,500, and the card was what I considered VG with no marks or creases. Same guy bought some 1880's baseballs and gloves off of the old man as well. Too bad I wasn't interested in Old Judges that much back then !!

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Posted By: barrysloate

The only recent public sales were two(?) out of the Egan collection for about 50K each, and one on ebay for 100K. Sounds like your friend left a bit of money on the table.

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Posted By: Dave

I have noticed that off of Ebay when I go to buy cards from dealers that they seem to sell Players League cards for a slight premium. I have also noticed through the last year of collecting that some of the Western Association teams are fairly hard to locate. St.Joseph, Denver, Minneapolis, and Omaha have all been tough to find. People told me I would have a tough time finding Maroons cards....not true !! I have found several this year in Ohio, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania, and didn't pay out the you know what for them either. I paid the same as I would for any other Old Judge card mainly due to the fact that the people I bought them from were not card shop owners or dealers. I find that the best prices can be found buying from non-sportscards related people.....simply because they don't know, and don't care that a Chicago Maroons N172 is rare.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Dave,id love to know who these dealers are that you keep referencing and if their prices are so good why do you even look anywhere else for cards.You should be buying up their entire inventory and either keeping them and have one of the best OJ collections in the world or you could sell them and make a fortune. If youre not going to buy from these dealers why not help out other people on the board? Ive been to a ton of shows and ive never seen one OJ for under $100 forget dealers worth of them


Oh and why would they put a slight premium on some cards like PL and know that some others are slightly tough but not know that Maroons are tougher?

I figure you pay $60 an OJ for regular commons from these guys,so what are PL cards $200? I'll pay you 4x value on any of these cards you can get around vg condition and when I run out of money ill hook you up with about 10 people who will do the same.In the meantime id love to see the great collection youve amassed from these poor unknowing saps

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Posted By: barrysloate

John- I was thinking the same thing. You mean there are still multiple antique dealers out there who have Old Judges and are selling them for way below market value? That would be amazing if true, and I too would buy every single one of them, no matter what.

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Posted By: Jay

It would be nice to assign some names to the characters in these fairy tales. Player's League cards are very rare and typically sell for several thousand dollars each, at a minimum. California League cards sell for $50,000+. Two player cards, while scarce, are not in the same class as the former groups. Two player cards sell anywhere from a few hundered to $2000 depending on the players involved. There are some rare players in the set that sell for alot of money when they can be located. Rare poses are a non-issue in pricing. Although some dealers like to claim that particular poses are scarce(read--they can charge more) virtually no one knows which poses are scarce and, even if they did, only a small handful of people collect by pose so these poses will almost surely realize no more than a normal pose in an auction environment. My advice to anyone new to Old Judge collecting. If someone advertises something as a scarce pose as them for a common pose of the same player. My guess that all their inventory will be scarce poses.

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Posted By: Dave

Anybody know how many "known" California league players card there are in the set? At least how many have been discovered?

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Posted By: Jay

19

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I like your succinct response

And it is true that dealers are forever believing they have found an unlisted pose and they therefore possess a great rarity.

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Posted By: Dave

I think it is well known that Waynesville and the surrounding area are known as the antique capital of the Midwest. there are between 75-100 antique stores within walking distance of my house. Getting hooked up with the shop owners was fairly easy. My girlfriend and I took a few examples of cards to each shop that had sports or tobacco related items in them. She already knows many of the shop owners because she owns a store herself( The Trinket Maiden), and her family owns the town restaurant, and a lot of other small businesses around here. Anyway, I told these store owners what I would pay for any example in similar condition if it was real, and I also told them that I had just recently moved to town. that was back in October, and now I have two women that call me or my brother whenever they come across old baseball cards or memorabilia. I think we pretty much pay their rent every month...LOL. I save them the trouble of having to list the stuff on Ebay even though they might be able to make more money...they like cash in hand right now as opposed to a PAYPAL payment from an auction. It's nice to have other people doing the leg work for me to be honest...I don't have a lot of free weekends to hit estate sales and such like I used to. Just because I have bought a few dozen cards for under the going rate that everyone else pays doesn't make me that special.I hear about better finds than any of mine all the time from guys who have been collecting since the 60's around here. I am not a dealer or re-seller of cards either, so I tend to buy things and hold on to them for awhile.When I decide not to complete a set I'll sell all the cards I have accumulated then move on. I don't have a recent price guide to base value off of either ( last one I have is from 2002) so I go with what the grading companies say in their reports, what sells on Ebay, and private sales or info that I read on this board. I didn't know I was getting a good deal on Old Judge cards when I bought my first ones for under $100 each. Some people might call me a hoarder when it comes to Old judges...I literally buy every card I see ( if I have the money ...LOL) unless it is severely damaged. I don't like buying cards with holes in them unless I need them or really want them. I've been such a baseball history nut since I was a young kid, when I started buying the Old Judge cards it really brought the history to life for me.

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Posted By: Jay

The Trinket Maiden--isn't that up the road from Waynesville in Bellbrook?

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Posted By: Bob

Will SGC grade OJs as authentic which have been "skinned?"
Thanks,
tbob

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Posted By: Jay

No, although if you reback it they will.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Bob,

I've seen that SGC has done this for skinned OJs. Here's a recent ebay auction for a skinned SGC graded OJ:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1887-Old-Judge-N172-Hardy-Richardson-SGC-Authentic_W0QQitemZ180081171704QQihZ008QQcategoryZ 86839QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Jay,

My experience with rebacked OJs and SGC is that they wont grade them. At least that's what they have told me. I would have guessed that they would have assigned them with the AUTH designation but they didn't. I submitted a large handful of OJs last year. I asked that they put the OJs that didn't qualify for numerical grades (for what ever reason) into cases with AUTH labels. I knew one card was obviously rebacked and this is the card that they would not encapsulate, even with an AUTH designation. They encapsulated a few others for size or possile trimming. I suppose that the rules may have changed. It makes sense to put rebacked or skinned OJs in AUTH holders. No big deal.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Dave, I would love to see some of your pickups! Do you have any Player League cards or California league cards? Half the fun in hoarding them is showing them off and letting other people enjoy them... JC

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Posted By: fessgreg

i got a n172 jake beckley sgc 88 with st. louis shirt(his rookie card). I think the book has it at 7500. it is the finest known. I wonder what it would go for in auction. i paid 15k. signed greg

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Posted By: fessgreg

barry those egan collection ca cards for 50k. what auction were they in or was it a private sale. I love old judges. I'd like to take a look at them. signed greg

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Egan collection was sold by Mastro Auctions about two years ago. I would have to dig through their catalogs to find the exact date and lot numbers, but I bet someone on the board remembers where it is.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=38252&CurrentRow=1

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=38254&CurrentRow=1

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Posted By: fessgreg

zach i don't know how you did it but thanks for the images of the california league players in the mastro net auction. you are a genius. signed greg

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Jay- If 19 California League cards are known, aren't there 5 others still missing?

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I too have pondered that very same question. Do you think there was a total of 24 to comprise one complete sheet? If so, one can speculate which teams those "unknowns" might be from. Of the 19 documented, here is how they stack up:

5 from Oakland
7 from Sacramento
7 from San Francisco (two teams, the Haverlys & Pioneers)

With four teams total, each should have on average 6 players if Goodwin & Co. split them up evenly. So Sacramento is +1, Oakland is -1, and the San Francisco teams have to make up the difference. This would suggest the remaining 5 cards might be all San Francisco cards. Note that 24 cards spread amongst 4 teams doesn't give very good coverage of each team's nine. Perhaps only the best players from each team were selected, or the ones that were able to make the photo shoots.

Wouldn't you love to find an uncut sheet ! !

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jay

Joe-Nice theory, but there was only one San Francisco team in 1889(Lew's book was wrong). The 1889 League was composed of Oakland, San Francisco, Stockton and Sacramento. So, if one was to speculate the question would be where are the Stockton players. What makes their omission all the more unusual is that Stockton was the 1888 League champion.

Richard--In answer to your question, if one were to assume that a full sheet of California League players was produced then there would be five players still unaccounted for. Let me offer another theory. Goodwin originally planned to produce a sheet of 24 which was to include five Stockton players. For some reason the Stockton glass plate negatives did not arrive on time, or arrived broken(not hard to envision for pieces of glass being shipped cross country) so Goodwin produced a partial sheet of only 19 cards representing the players from the other three teams.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- what would be the configuration of a 19 card sheet? That's a prime number, among other things.

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Posted By: Jay

Row 1:6 cards
Row 2-6 cards
Row 3-6 cards
Row 4-1 card

Barry--It doesn't have to be symetric

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Great stuff!, I need to brush up on my California League history. I really like your theory, it holds some merit. They may have also doubled up on some of the players to fill a sheet or patched in some other 1889 cards.

Thanks for chiming in.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay and I were just speaking and we both agree given the rarity of each California League player, it is reasonable or likely to assume that at least one or more players who were issued are lost forever, without a single example surviving.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

That makes more sense Barry. If there were only 24 players made it wouldnt be hard to believe only 1-2 survived of some players while none survived of others.I could picture more players actually being printed too.I would need to see an old company issued checklist before i believed the set is complete at 19

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Did everyone hear that - this is great news for you Old Judge collectors - You ONLY need to get 19 of the Cal League cards to complete the set of Cal Leagure players. I couldn't imagine trying to get 24, the first 19 are tough enough...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I am just 19 away from completing the set!

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Posted By: fessgreg

being an old judge fan i always wondered about the california league players. thanks for the history lesson and i didn't know the prices for these cards are so high. signed greg

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Posted By: Dylan

Hate to bump an old thread but didnt want to start a new one as it follows this one. What I'm wondering is how much of a premium do the cards with handwritten names receive? Also how much does a players league card sell for in comparison to a common OJ?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Script series sell for a bit of a premium because they are generally tougher to find. However some players, such as Roger Connor, are just as easy to find script as printed.

Players League are much tougher, as by 1890 the production run of Old Judges was down. I would think they would be worth at least double a common, but let the Old Judge experts chime in.

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Posted By: chris bland

No expert, but most PL cards I have seen sell for far more than 2x the price of a common card.

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Posted By: Fred C

Dylan,

I guess the question should be clarified. The script series of cards that Barry mentioned have the name scripted in the area where the player picture is located. For example, the most well known are the "$10,000 Kelly" cards. There is another series of cards produced in 1887 that have the players name, team and position below the picture area.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Just because the name appears written in cursive does not necessarily mean that it is a "Script" card.

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Posted By: Chris

Is there any extra value or scarcity to any of the players who have misspelled names?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I didn't do so well with the first question, so let me try to redeem myself.

Many of the names are misspelled, so it is really a question of whether it's a rare variation. For example, there is a card of Tim Keefe with the last name spelled "Keef", but it is valuable because only a couple or so are known. If it's misspelled but easy to find, then no premium.

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Posted By: Jay

Player's League cards are very rare with at most a few examples for individual players. I believe that these cards should sell at at least 10X what a similar 1889 card of the same player sells for, but they tend to go for less since I don't believe that most collectors appreciate their rarity. Also, the photos on these cards tend to be light or faded looking.

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Posted By: Dylan

I've been trying to get a grip on this set before I look to collect some and it is like nothing ive seen before. I get the HOF'ers selling for premium and all the various subsets like Browns Champions, players league, "spotted ties", and the near impossible CAL league as well. Obviously there are tough variations but besides looking at prior sales(certainly an imperfect system) i have no way to guess which are the tough ones and which are easy. Also i understand that certain teams are tougher then others. Does anyone have a list from hardest to easiest of the teams represented in the set? Or atleast can someone say which few are the toughest and which are easiest. Thing is there's got to be some serious OJ collectors here, its just too widely collected for there not to be, but I rarely see serious discussion about the set. I've also heard that the serious collectors of this set don't like to discuss it in open forums.

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Posted By: barrysloate

My theory- and Jay knows better than I do- is mainstream teams on the east coast are rather easy, but smaller teams in the midwest are generally tougher. New York Giants players show up with great frequency; players from teams in Omaha and Milwaukee show up less often, and in some cases are quite rare. The set was widely distributed in the big cities, less so in the heartland.

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Posted By: Jay

Barry is correct on this. Cards from the National League teams from New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago tend to be the most readily available. Of course there are some scarcer poses within this group but in general they are the most obtainable. The Western League teams in general are a little more difficult to obtain. Cards from one year teams like the Whites and the Maroons can be tough, especially the Maroons. Then there are some teams that appear very rarely like the Lowells and the team from Wilkes Barre. These latter two examples are genuine rarities.

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Posted By: Bruce

how tough are these? are Dugdale and Hanrahan tough? who else is tough from this team? thanks

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Posted By: barrysloate

All the Maroon players are pretty tough, and popular among collectors.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Dylan: there are countless ways to collect OJs. My preference is to select cards which coincide with a specific achievement of the player. Lots of interesting things occured in 19th century baseball. By reading the history of the game, and choosing cards to represent occurances which you deem noteworthy, your collection becomes a part of that history.

And your wantlist will include some of the major stars and their accomplishments and the players who only had the one claim to fame of a good day, season or instant in baseball lore.

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Posted By: Jay

Bruce--Some Maroon players are very scarce and some are only a little more scarce than the average card in the set. Unfortunately, the two that you mention are amongst the more common varieties.