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  #61  
Old 07-11-2018, 03:58 PM
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Clemente’s movie will undoubtedly be titled “21”.

As a sequel so to speak of “42”, will it be half as good or half as long?
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  #62  
Old 07-11-2018, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bbcard1 View Post
It is an interesting argument. It all really depends on how you define inner circle. Clemente would have a very good augment for the all time national league all star team, starting along side Mays and Aaron, especially if you move Musial to first and depending on your opinion and stand on Barry Bonds. Does that make him inner circle? OTOH, he probably would not be in the top 10 outfielder of all time if viewed objectively, though in the neighborhood. So far as Kaline goes, he was more spectacular though perhaps not quite as consistent. He started slowly and Kaline started fast which might account for the difference. He has a much larger persona than many players who are arguably statically better than he.
I would take Frank Robinson and possibly Ott over Clemente due to much more power.
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  #63  
Old 07-11-2018, 04:51 PM
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A great big thanks for everyone taking the time to post their opinions. I am old enough to have seen and did see plenty of Mantle still in his prime in the very early '60's, along with Mays, Aaron, Koufax, Clemente and living in the Detroit area, a great deal of Kaline, who was a legend here, status wise at that time. With regard to one post above, Kaline is pretty well-remembered for his part in the '68 World Series. Tigers' manager Mayo Smith, knowing he needed a bit more to take on the very tough '68 Cardinals, moved Mickey Stanley from center field to shortstop (thereby relegating the excellent fielding, but no-hit Ray Oyler--.171 BA--to the bench) in order to get the aging Kaline's bat in the lineup (Northrup and Horton were in right and left, and both had excellent years) for his first and only World Series after he had been injured for the better part of the season. And Al did us proud, quite proud, hitting .379, and leading the Tigers in a World Series where the Bengals came back to win from a 3 games to one deficit.

I personally had both Kaline and Clemente in the middle tier of HOF'ers performance-wise, as objectively as I could ascertain them to be. But I have to admit that the preceding posts confirm my much more recent observations that Clemente has indeed become a legendary icon in the sport, and that metamorphisis isn't done yet!

The movie should be tremendous, and I also hope they title it, "21."

Thanks guys,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 07-11-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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  #64  
Old 07-11-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
again obviously it's a matter than can be debated, but saying it's a stretch to put him in the top two or 3 means, to me, that you think he's WAY outside that rarified air. If we're debating where he falls in the top 5 it's hardly a stretch to say he's 2 or 3.
He is 17th in WAR, he is 13th in JAWS, 5th in WAR7 and 5th (or tied for 4th) in OPS+. It is a stretch to project him as higher than 5th if he had a full career when his prime was lower than the other 4. I have him above every player with a lower peak and every player who was a worse hitter, regardless of any other factors. I don't see how you can put him in the top 2 or 3 with great players like Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins and Morgan at the position. All 5 are in the rarified air of all time greats in my opinion. As a person, Jackie stands above all of them.
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  #65  
Old 07-11-2018, 05:43 PM
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At the risk of sounding blasphemous I tend to discount pre-war players when having such debates. They didn't play night games, less travel, faced less specialized pitching, they were smaller, largely less athletic, and did not have to compete against others who were barred simply because of the color of their skin.

Today's baseball players are bigger, stronger, and faster. I think baseball today is better than it ever has been. Don't get me wrong, I love Clemente, and Hank Aaron. Nonetheless, If I was building a team today and could pick any player in baseball history I would take Mike Trout over both of them any day of the week.
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  #66  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I would take Frank Robinson and possibly Ott over Clemente due to much more power.

The Orioles took Robinson in 1971 and didn't do them enough good head to head against Clemente in 1971!
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  #67  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ls7plus View Post
A great big thanks for everyone taking the time to post their opinions. I am old enough to have seen and did see plenty of Mantle still in his prime in the very early '60's, along with Mays, Aaron, Koufax, Clemente and living in the Detroit area, a great deal of Kaline, who was a legend here, status wise at that time. With regard to one post above, Kaline is pretty well-remembered for his part in the '68 World Series. Tigers' manager Mayo Smith, knowing he needed a bit more to take on the very tough '68 Cardinals, moved Mickey Stanley from center field to shortstop (thereby relegating the excellent fielding, but no-hit Ray Oyler--.171 BA--to the bench) in order to get the aging Kaline's bat in the lineup (Northrup and Horton were in right and left, and both had excellent years) for his first and only World Series after he had been injured for the better part of the season. And Al did us proud, quite proud, hitting .379, and leading the Tigers in a World Series where the Bengals came back to win from a 3 games to one deficit.

I personally had both Kaline and Clemente in the middle tier of HOF'ers performance-wise, as objectively as I could ascertain them to be. But I have to admit that the preceding posts confirm my much more recent observations that Clemente has indeed become a legendary icon in the sport, and that metamorphisis isn't done yet!

The movie should be tremendous, and I also hope they title it, "21."

Thanks guys,

Larry
Great post, Larry. And Go Tigers!
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  #68  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz View Post
A poor man’s Andruw Jones. That’s all, a poor man’s Andruw Jones.
Thanks for the tip. I am buying Andruw anywhere and everywhere

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 07-12-2018 at 08:05 AM.
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  #69  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71buc View Post
At the risk of sounding blasphemous I tend to discount pre-war players when having such debates. They didn't play night games, less travel, faced less specialized pitching, they were smaller, largely less athletic, and did not have to compete against others who were barred simply because of the color of their skin.

Today's baseball players are bigger, stronger, and faster. I think baseball today is better than it ever has been. Don't get me wrong, I love Clemente, and Hank Aaron. Nonetheless, If I was building a team today and could pick any player in baseball history I would take Mike Trout over both of them any day of the week.
I disagree rather strongly but will not get too into that but I have absolutely no faith in the players of today being able to put up with anything the pre-war players had to deal with as far as playing conditions, travel by bus, pay, spit-balls, scuffed baseballs, getting cut when they struck out as much as they do today, etc, etc (in other words I believe the best of the past would excel more in today’s game than today’s guys would having to go back in time and play the old style)

Bigger and stronger are largely overrated in my opinion, otherwise we wouldn’t see players like Jose Altuve, Jean Segura and Dee Gordon being as good as they are.
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  #70  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:19 PM
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I always have a problem when people talk about the physical differences between players of now and then. Evolution doesn't take place in 100 years. So the players of yesteryear would have all the same training and nutrition advantages as today's players, why on earth would they be worse? Now baseball wasn't a global game back then so the player pool is massively expanded, but I think that affects the elite far less than it does the average. Of course there are almost 3x as many jobs on MLB rosters than there was prewar which does eat up a portion of the available increased talent pool.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 07-11-2018 at 10:21 PM.
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