1929 - 1930 R315 Anonymous Issue 1933 Maybe?

[danmckee]

I am thinking this R315 Issue may actually be from 1933 and not 1929 - 30.

I am basing this off of the 2 variations of Lefty O'Doul that I have.

One has him with Brooklyn and the other NY Giants.

The only year he played on both teams is in 1933.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...7doule01.shtml

[Leon]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I am thinking this R315 Issue may actually be from 1933 and not 1929 - 30.

I am basing this off of the 2 variations of Lefty O'Doul that I have.

One has him with Brooklyn and the other NY Giants.

The only year he played on both teams is in 1933.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...7doule01.shtml

Nice catch, Dan. Brooklyn variation isn't listed on OldCardboard.
Not knowing more specifics we could even think of 1932..

[Exhibitman]

Now that is interesting. Gonna mess with a lot of RC collectors' heads.

[RCMcKenzie]

It looks like Firpo Marberry's last season with the Senators was 1932. I haven't really studied this set. I used to have the Roger Hornsby as a type card. I think I sold it.

[brianp-beme]

Is the team nickname on O'Doul 'Robins' or Dodgers? It appears that the official nickname was Robins until 1931, and then became Dodgers in 1932.

If there is indeed a Brooklyn version of this card, it is more likely to indicate a multiple year issue, with 1929 through 1931 being the range. I checked all 46 players/team designations on the cards, and the teams listed all correspond to teams the player was on in the 1929 and 1930 seasons. Here are some of the key cards in that regard:


Benny Bengough, designated with the Yankees, played for them through the 1930 season

Larry Benton, designated with the Giants, played with them into middle of 1930 season, and in 1930 began playing for Reds

Bud Clancy, designated with the White Sox, played with them through 1930

Burleigh Grimes, designated with the Pirates, played with them in 1928 and 1929, and in 1930 and 1931 with the Cardinals

Rogers Hornsby, designated with the Cubs, played with them 1929 through 1932

Smead Jolley, designated with the White Sox, played with them from 1930 through 1932

Mark Koenig, designated with the Yankees, played with them into 1930 season, and was with Tigers part of 1930 and the 1931 season

Fred Leach, designated with the Giants, played with them 1929 through 1931

Lefty O'Doul, designated with the Giants, played with them in 1928 and 1933-34. He played with Robins/Dodgers 1931, 1932 and part season of 1933

Andy Reese, designated with the Giants, played his full MLB career with them from 1927 through 1930

Carl Reynolds, designated with the White Sox, played with them 1927 through 1931

Bob Shawkey, designated with the Yankees, played with them through 1927 (last year in MLB)

Art Shires, designated with the White Sox, played with them 1928, 1929 and part of the 1930 season

Hack Wilson, designated with the Cubs, played with them 1926 through 1931

Tom Zachary, designated with the Yankees, played with them 1928, 1929 and part of the 1930 season


In going through the 46 players, all lined up with the 1929-30 designation, except Bob Shawkey, who was finished in the MLB in 1927.

1929 is the common denominator among all the other players, except for Smead Jolley, who started playing for the White Sox in 1930, and Lefty O' Doul, who played with the Giants in 1928. and then again for part of the 1933 season as well as 1934. He played with the Robins/Dodgers 1931, 1932 and part of 1933.


Brian

[spec]

The team designations built into the design indicate R315 was originally issued in 1929. Most, if not all, of the cards can also be found with position and team printed in the border below the image as on Dan's Brooklyn O'Doul. I suggest that these R315 varieties were produced after O'Doul's trade to Brooklyn in Oct. 1930. We know of other 1920s sets (e.g. W502 and W590) that were reissued with updates years after originally distributed. If R315 were a 1933 issue, it would have Robins under his name as part of the design and New York NL in the border printing since he was dealt from Brooklyn to New York during the 1933 season. Since the White Sox did not obtain Smead Jolley until after the 1929 season, perhaps R315 was issued in at least two batches, one in 1929, the other in 1930, which also would account for the fact that O'Doul is shown as a Giant, while Fred Leach, the man he was traded for just after the 1928 season, is also designated a Giant.

Originally Posted by danmckee

I am thinking this R315 Issue may actually be from 1933 and not 1929 - 30.

I am basing this off of the 2 variations of Lefty O'Doul that I have.

One has him with Brooklyn and the other NY Giants.

The only year he played on both teams is in 1933.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...7doule01.shtml

[danmckee]

Here is the common O'Doul:

Pictured with Giants - Brooklyn Nat'l bottom

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-R315-F...ss!21053!US!-1



Here is the one I just acquired:

Pictured as Giants with a Giants NL bottom

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-1930-R...rdt=true&rt=nc

This only works in 1933 I believe.....

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Dan for supplying images. I never really paid much attention to these cards...I am not much of collector of larger size issues.

Looking at the Old Cardboard site, the two cards you linked to would be considered Type 'B', due to the white panel at bottom of photo with name and team, AND name and team information printed on white frame on bottom, as seen in the two examples Dan provided.

To me it would seem logical that these Type B cards had two different print runs, the first scarcer run possibly as early as sometime in 1928 (due to the printed bottom border Giants designation on Lefty's card, and a second, more widely produced run in 1931 (based on the O'Doul with Brooklyn designation on bottom border, and the fact that it appears that Smead Jolley also has a Type B which pictures him in a White Sox uniform, which could have at the earliest have been produced in early 1930, due to his trade to White Sox in November of 1929).

The Jolley Type B card also make it unlikely that the second run was produced in 1933, because he was traded to the Boston Red Sox on April 29th, 1932, but is still identified on bottom panel as being with the White Sox.

So to me this set, with its various formats, may have been produced between the years 1928 and 1931.

Brian (by the way the Old Cardboard site rocks, as it has a photo gallery of the R315 set which helped me immensely).

[nolemmings]

It seems pretty clear to me that the two O’Doul cards were not issued in 1933. The New York card came first, as seen by the name/team plate in the photo for both cards stating “GIANTS”. In 1933, Lefty started the season in Brooklyn and then went to New York, where he last played in 1928. If both were issued in 1933, one would expect the name and team in the photo to read Robins (or Dodgers), with the New York card as an update, and not the other way around.

Instead, the New York card was made as a part of a late 1928 or 1929 issue. As others posted, Lefty was traded for Fred Leach after the ‘28 season, and Leach appears on his new team but Lefty does not. If both were printed at the same time then Lefty would seem to be an uncorrected error. Alternatively, if O’Doul was part of the first print run in late 1928 and Leach part of the second run in 1930, that would explain how both correctly show as Giants. Of course, if the first print run was in 1929 and not late 1928, then O’Doul was an uncorrected error (his trade should to Philly should have been reflected) and Leach still could have been added in 1930 (or part of the same 1929 print run).

We know with some certainty that there was a second printing in 1930, both because Smead Jolley did not play with Chicago before then but perhaps more importantly because Bob Shawkey is identified (Type B) as Yankee manager, a position he held only one season--1930.


Hope that made sense. (I now see where spec already laid this out earlier...oops)

[brianp-beme]

Nice catch Todd concerning Shawkey being identified in Type B cards as Manager. I was wondering why he was included since he stopped playing in 1927. So it seems like he was let go as manager of the Yankees shortly after the 1930 season ended. So perhaps the Type B cards were first issued in 1930, and then had a second run perhaps later in 1930 or in 1931.

And looking at the Old Cardboard site I realized that the Smead Jolley card with the print on border is not actually Type B, but Type D (because it does not have the white box).

Boy this set is more complicated than I imagined...I better back out before all of this freezes me up like a deer in the headlights.

Brian

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Nice catch Todd concerning Shawkey being identified in Type B cards as Manager. I was wondering why he was included since he stopped playing in 1927. So it seems like he was let go as manager of the Yankees shortly after the 1930 season ended. So perhaps the Type B cards were first issued in 1930, and then had a second run perhaps later in 1930 or in 1931.

And looking at the Old Cardboard site I realized that the Smead Jolley card with the print on border is not actually Type B, but Type D (because it does not have the white box).

Boy this set is more complicated than I imagined...I better back out before all of this freezes me up like a deer in the headlights.

Brian

Yes Brian, there is a lot that remains confusing about the R315 set. There were two printings of Type B&D, as is apparent from the two O’Douls that Dan showed at the beginning of this thread. You will find that several of the players can be found with their positions identified as “Fielder” on some cards and the specific position on others, and the font or typeset on that bottom line of position/team can vary somewhat in appearance and/or placement on the card. It may be that the original design of photo and info within the photo frame were produced and distributed, and then later other publishers printed the info below the photo on the bottom line.

Oddly, the set is now generally considered to have been issued in 1929-30, two years when Lefty O’Doul played in Philadelphia, but the R315 set manages to caption him as playing for his 1928 and 1931 teams only. Seems the set failed to catch the off-season 1928 trade and was quick to spot the off-season 1930 trade.

[spec]

O'Doul won the NL batting title in 1929 with a .398 average for the Phillies and hit .383 for them the following year. If they were updating team affiliations, it seems strange he would have escaped notice.

[leftygrove10]

Did any of the players in the R315 set have two different variations where the team name under the player's name was changed? I was wondering if the picture, player name and team within the border of the picture stayed constant throughout all the years that the R315 cards were printed and the only thing that they changed with the new print runs was the text in the bottom border. That might explain why "Giants" still appears below O'Doul's name and "Brooklyn" appears within the text at the bottom. For whatever reason, maybe it was not possible or two difficult to change the name of the team within the border with the new print runs.

I have a set of these cards. For the versions of my cards where there is text at the bottom, the team name at the bottom is consistent with the team name within the border of the picture.

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Here is the common O'Doul:

Pictured with Giants - Brooklyn Nat'l bottom

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-R315-F...ss!21053!US!-1



Here is the one I just acquired:

Pictured as Giants with a Giants NL bottom

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-1930-R...rdt=true&rt=nc

This only works in 1933 I believe.....

Does anyone have an image of the 2nd O’Doul? That eBay auction is no longer up. Which one is thought to have been issued first?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by shagrotn77

does anyone have an image of the 2nd o’doul? That ebay auction is no longer up. Which one is thought to have been issued first?

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