Matty Mystery Item - Help me identify

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Posted By: Joe D.

I posted this in the pickup thread....
but since I am asking for help - I thought it should have its own thread

I am trying to identify this item - and so far have come up empty (been googling).

It measures 3.5" x 5.5".
It is on slightly thinner than postcard paper stock (like a lighter postcard - heavier than a text weight paper)....
It looks hand-cut or trimmed, and it has the stamp on the back "New England Gum Co. Cambridge, Mass."

Any ideas?

Any info / comments would be appreciated.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Joe, it's a New England Gum Company Mathewson. Says so right on the back.

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Posted By: Matt

I think many of us saw it on ebay - glad someone from the board picked it up and interested to see what it is. Nothing like it in SCD as far as I can tell.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I picked it up at the Reading Show.

Possibly the person who sold it to me got it from eBay.... I wouldn't know.

Would you happen to have the eBay auction number? If it is a different example of the item, I can contact the seller and see if he knows anything.


Dan -
thanks for the great detective work
btw - google is giving me nothing on "New England Gum Co."
I am getting NECCO results when I do that search.

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Posted By: fkw

Similar to a 1913 Baseball Magazine premium, except the image of Matty is different. The caption is very similar design.

Might be a Fantasy Issue?

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Posted By: Matt

Joe - I don't have the ebay number - the auction ended about a month ago if someone keeps the records. If I recall correctly, it ended at about $50.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I just tested it with a blacklight...

It checked out okay - - the paper looks to be vintage.

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Posted By: fkw

If you do a Google Search with "New England Gum Co." you will see it was on eBay with the price being $14.50 after 3 bids and 1 day 14 hours 5 min. left. The seller also listed it as 1930's.

I cant get the auction to come up, I think because it was too far back to be in the closed auctions.

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Posted By: Matt

Frank - thanks for the tip - here it is (I was a bit off on the closing price):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140198476438

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Adam Warshaw has a New England Gum Company Boxing flip card of Jeffries and Johnson.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The one on ebay appears to be the exact same one and sold for $100.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140198476438

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Posted By: Joe D.

I will contact the seller of that item.

Hopefully he may have some sort of info that would be helpful.

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Posted By: Matt

Joe - if it helps, I contacted the seller when it was on ebay and he said he knew nothing more about it then what it said on the back.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I didn't see your newest post and I just shot an email off to him.

I wonder how he came up with the 1930s time period.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

My recollection is that Matty was on 2 Baseball Magazine premiums. I have the second one. I have not seen the earlier version... are you certain that early version has the same image??

Have you illuminated this with black light??

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Posted By: Joe D.

I have illuminated this with the blacklight.

it is vintage.

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Posted By: fkw

Matty was in 1913, and also in 1941. I believe the 1913 has a different picture with his leg up high in mid windup. I dont know what the 1941 one looks like.


Here is one of them (I think its the 1913 ??)
http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/200411/baseball/cards/191


PS. Joe, it looks vintage to me and with the wavy trimming I think it looks authentic in every way. Its just that Ive never seen one before.

Interesting item.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

repeat post

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Interestingly, Goudey and Delong Gum companies were based in Boston and National Chicle in Cambridge. Perhaps Metropolitan Boston was the world gum mecca. If it can be established that there was a New England Gum Company, or at least spin off brand name, in Cambridge, that would help establish the legitimacy of the card. It would rule out that some faker made up an imaginary company name to stamp on back. If it is discovered that the company existed, the name is so obscure it would be hard to believe that stamp is anything but genuine. In practice, forgers don't use real names no one has heard of, as that's a pointless exersize. They make up imaginary names that sound good or 'borrow' names collectors are familiar with. More often than not, they opt to use the familiar real names (Old Judge, Goudey, Topps, Charles Conlon, Goodwin & Co., etc)

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Posted By: Joe D.

Thanks for that link Frank.
It does look very similar to the M113 posters.
The proportions of the image / the typeface / the whole design looks to be a match.

Of course, the big difference is the overall size.

Also, although I don't have an M113 to compare - I would assume it was on thinner paper stock than the Matty. The Matty is on card stock (albiet thinner than a postcard - but maybe as thick as a T206).


David -
NECCO was in Cambridge I believe. So far, I have come up short with the "New England Gum Co." research - but I will continue on.


So far the most intriguing evidence that the "New England Gum Co." is an actual company is what Dan pointed me to.... on Adam Warshaws website - - ca. 1910 New England Gum Co. Jeffries and Johnson flip card. (very cool)


http://imageevent.com/exhibitman/rareboxingcards;jsessionid=ai8ggp0591.buffalo_s?p= 86&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Here's the later Mathewson premium, M114. My scanner isn't quite wide enough for this, it lacks a bit of the side margins.

The Standard Catalog lists this as a 1941 issue. I'm not certain that is correct, but it is close if not correct. The Catalog lists the larger M113 premium as a 1913 issue, I think that is about right.

This 'mystery' issue probably reminds us of the Baseball Magazine premiums becuase of the color of the printing and the action stance.

And it looks real enough, especially since it passed the black light test. Great item!!! Wish I had one.

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Posted By: Matt

Any possibility it's a page from a book?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Although it is thinner than I would think a card its size should be - I think the paper is too thick to be part of pages from a book.

I could be wrong... I am going to check it out with a micrometer at work to see what the thickness is.

Going by memory (I don't have a raw one handy)... it is thicker than the 1914 Cracker Jacks.

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Posted By: martindl

I doubt the Matty has any connection to Necco. Heres a candy box from Necco for Base Balls with a Boston address.

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

Joe-
You might want to check with Dan C on the nonsports side as he has done a ton of research into Boston gum and candy companies. He posts regularly there (and has created the amazing image galleries) so his email should be avilable. Please keep us informed as to your research!
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Never mind. Retracted thought.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I still do not have any information on the New England Gum Co.
but today I received an email reply from NECCO -
I had questioned whether or not they may have used that brand name around 1910.

It is not NECCO.
"The Necco Logo would have Necco Sweets, Boston MA at that time. Necco did not move to Cambridge until 1927.
Not us."


So - its a little info on who it is not.

But I still do not know who it might be.

The only other clue is the circa 1910 boxing card by New England Gum Co Cambridge Mass mentioned earlier in this thread.


The mystery is still a mystery.

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Posted By: PC

Two thoughts:

(1) You can contact the Mass. Secretary of State, to see if they have a record of that company. I did a quick search of their online database, and the name did not come up, but the online database may not list inactive entities. Here's their contact info (maybe they can do a manual search for you): http://www.sec.state.ma.us/COR/corcon.htm

(2) Since NECCO responded, maybe ask them a couple of more questions -- perhaps they have documents with their competitor's names from that time period in their archives (?).

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Posted By: Steve

They were given out as a premium by that company. Last
year I saw a Stengel which was similar with an ad with the Town
I live in on the back. It was a sporting goods company ad.

I guess you could call them a promotional issue?

Steve

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Posted By: Joe D.

PC -

You and I think alike. I did ask NECCO if they could provide other information or if they knew of the New England Gum Company. They graciously replied - but they did not know the New England Gum Company and did not have other information to provide.


Steve -

That is very interesting information. Would you happen to have an image of the Stengel item? Or any other info that leads you to believe this may have been a premium given out by the company?

Thanks,
Joe

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

I would suggest placing a phone call to the main branch of Cambridge's public library, or the Harvard library. They should have the info you're searching for, and should prove to be of assistance in your efforts. I've always had great luck with librarians. If these attempts fail, seek out the city's archivist for advice. Archivists are even more happy to oblige such requests.