Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by cammb

IMO the Clemente rookie is the MOST over valued card in the hobby. Baseball is all about stats and his are just not there.

There are innumerably more examples than Clemente in baseball, let alone all other sports that disprove that. Popularity and collectabilty can start with stats but likability, character and story cement demand in many cases.

As stated already, this stats argument on Clemente is null and void. He is an icon because of his life and person. That is why he is valued and should be.

Completely different sport, but as an example, is the demand for Brian Piccolo's rookie to easily sell for hundreds in an 8 because he had 4 TDs in his career or for him as a man? Are Moe Berg's cards worth anything because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn or that his story is perhaps one of the best secrets ever disclosed?

Intangibles.

[hedgefund96]

All,

I just want to say that I truly enjoy this thread and reading all of the opinions...

[cammb]

Originally Posted by JustinD

There are innumerably more examples than Clemente in baseball, let alone all other sports that disprove that. Popularity and collectabilty can start with stats but likability, character and story cement demand in many cases.

As stated already, this stats argument on Clemente is null and void. He is an icon because of his life and person. That is why he is valued and should be.

Completely different sport, but as an example, is the demand for Brian Piccolo's rookie to easily sell for hundreds in an 8 because he had 4 TDs in his career or for him as a man? Are Moe Berg's cards worth anything because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn or that his story is perhaps one of the best secrets ever disclosed?

Intangibles.

Since you say that the stats argument in null and void, it must be true. Because the man died on a humanitarian mission doesn't explain the crazy value of his cards. HOFer -yes. Thousands of dollars for his cards- NO!

[hcv123]

While he may not have been the greatest player - he WAS a GREAT player (statistically)! The stats have been mentioned earlier in this thread. In addition to that he 1) Loved and was more passionate than many about the game of baseball and playing it. 2) He was a great role model and face of the game. He fought to maintain his individuality and pride while making any celebration about his fans and family. 3) He gave back in ways that few players do, ultimately giving his life while trying to help on a night that most people were busy partying. His life story is one of achieving the American dream and then dying tragically. Every bit a GREAT player AND so much more. Deserving (imnsho) of being as popular in the baseball card world as he is.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by cammb

Since you say that the stats argument in null and void, it must be true. Because the man died on a humanitarian mission doesn't explain the crazy value of his cards. HOFer -yes. Thousands of dollars for his cards- NO!

Then explain.

[Johnny630]

His Topps Rookie is expensive becasue it's a hard card. Aaron way more easy in 54 same with Banks and Kaline. 55 Sandy Rookie Way more easy along with Harmon.

Find me a centered limited print issue Clemente Rookie, not easy to find. People pay up for it all the time. Nice 8's will prob settle back to the $20k range.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Part of it is that he had that intangible quality -- I'm not sure it can be translated accurately, but the Spanish word I have seen is duende. It even comes through on some of his cards I would say.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Part of it is that he had that intangible quality -- I'm not sure it can be translated accurately, but the Spanish word I have seen is duende. It even comes through on some of his cards I would say.

Great word.

I think he's just become (or rather has been) a icon that inspires people. He also is perhaps the top collecting tier for post war Latin american collectors.

As to the overvalued discussion I simply can't agree as his RC is selling at a rapid pace at good numbers. It has leveled from the false market trends of last summer but is well within fair pricing now. As to his other cards, I feel they have room to grow in the next few years and pick up good cards when I see them at fair prices. I remember buying a dead centered 1959 PSA 8 just a few years back at less than 80 bucks and that just does not happen today. However, you can still find higher grade later issues at sub-100 levels if you watch.

I know I am in the super-minority because I feel the 52 Mantle is the most over-valued card in the hobby. But that is personal opinion, right now and in the foreseeable future that is proven by buyers that my opinion has little water...it's my opinion. I think that the hyperbole about Clemente not being in the upper echelon of collectible postwar RCs holds the same amount of water as my Mantle thoughts. It can be my opinion, but the sales figures just aren't giving it weight.

[the 'stache]

Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more. The Pirates somehow managed to win two World Series with him, in 1960 and 1971, against the '60 Yankees with Mantle, Maris, Ford, Berra, et all, and the '71 Orioles with four 20 game winners, Frank and Brooks Robinson. The guy had incredible power. It's been documented. He's like Ichiro in that regard. And, he played in an aircraft carrier for most of his career home games.

And that sacrificing the glory that comes with home runs for the good of the team should be commended, not dissed. That's the kind of mentality I'd love in a superstar.

The guy was a career .317 hitter. 4 batting titles, and 6 other top 5 finishes. And, he was getting better, as I'd mentioned. Last four seasons, he was a .339 hitter. Clemente could have kept going. Where would his lifetime AVG had ended up? 440 doubles and 240 home runs aren't elite. 166 triples? No player starting their career after WW II has more. Then, there's the guy's defense. Defense is half the game, and he's arguably the best to ever play the position.

Dude had 94.5 career WAR. He only played 18 seasons. If he plays 22 like Mays or Aaron, here are his career stats (and all-time rank) using his seasonal averages for his last four years, reduced by 20% for decline due to age:

10,909 AB
1,658 runs scored
3,493 hits (6th)
512 doubles
196 triples (9th)
285 home runs
1,543 RBI
5,252 total bases (15th)
.320 AVG

122 WAR (12th)

Willie Mays played 22 years, 2,992 games
Hank Aaron played 24 years, 3,298 games
Ty Cobb played 24 years, 3,034 games
Frank Robinson played 21 years 2,808 games
Stan Musial played 22 years, 3,026 games
Carl Yastrzemski played 23 years, 3,308 games

Roberto Clemente 2,433 games

A lot of the guys atop the leader boards on all-time metrics had the benefit of 400-500 more games played. Clemente died. Much of his greatest value as a player came towards the very end of his career. His game wasn't declining.

If Clemente had played 22 years, using the approximate numbers I calculated, here's how he compares against these supposedly "superior players".

WAR:
Mays 156.4
Cobb 151.0
Aaron 143.0
Musial 128.2
Clemente 122.0
Robinson 107.3
Yaz 96.4

Clemente's career WAR is comparable to Stan Musial when the games played are about the same.

Without actually projecting what Clemente might have done, let's break it down to what he did do. Games played per WAR point. (Games/WAR per BBA).

Same players:

Mays 19.13
Cobb 20.09
Aaron 23.06
Musial 23.60
Robinson 26.17
Yaz 34.31
Clemente 25.75

When total contribution is considered, Clemente's rate of WAR is better than Carl Yastrzemski and Frank Robinson. It's quite comparable to Stan Musial's rate.

Expressed another way, their average WAR per 162 games played:

Mays 8.47
Cobb 8.06
Aaron 7.03
Musial 6.86
Robinson 6.19
Yaz 4.72
Clemente 6.29

Some other greats:
Jackie Robinson 22.51 games played per WAR; 7.20 WAR per 162 games played.
Babe Ruth 15.44 G per WAR; 10.49 WAR per 162 games played.
Mel Ott 25.32 G per WAR; 6.40 WAR per 162 games played.

Again, WAR per 162 games played:
Mel Ott 6.40
Clemente 6.29

Mel Ott hit 511 career home runs. He led the league in home runs six times. Drove in 1,860 runs. And Roberto Clemente, who hit less than half his runs has almost the identical WAR/162 games played.


So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more.

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?

Clemente wasn't an "inner circle" HOFer. As in, naming the five or ten best players of all-time - he ain't on the list. Obviously, he was a great player. No one is denying that. But he also wasn't one of the absolute greatest and isn't in that conversation. If you're not in the conversation, you're not inner circle. That's not an insult. Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.

[hedgefund96]

Thinking about buying this...

[Johnny630]

Don’t like the title and print bottom left. Just me though.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by hedgefund96

Thinking about buying this...

Centering is more than solid. I think it has a little knock for the light printers ink shadow bottom left around the pirate. But a fantastic card and one of my favorites because the yellow pops and the photo is great.

[hedgefund96]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Centering is more than solid. I think it has a little knock for the light printers ink shadow bottom left around the pirate. But a fantastic card and one of my favorites because the yellow pops and the photo is great.

I will be bidding on it..

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by JustinD

There are innumerably more examples than Clemente in baseball, let alone all other sports that disprove that. Popularity and collectabilty can start with stats but likability, character and story cement demand in many cases.

As stated already, this stats argument on Clemente is null and void. He is an icon because of his life and person. That is why he is valued and should be.

Completely different sport, but as an example, is the demand for Brian Piccolo's rookie to easily sell for hundreds in an 8 because he had 4 TDs in his career or for him as a man? Are Moe Berg's cards worth anything because he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn or that his story is perhaps one of the best secrets ever disclosed?

Intangibles.

Hell, Joe Namath is pretty much the ne plus ultra of modern FB cards and he was a pretty mediocre Quarterback.