Is Craig Biggio HOF material

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Posted By: Rich W.

With that latest HOF thread, it reminded me of Craig Biggio. The HOF has always had "standards" at which induction appears to be guaranteed (500 home runs, 300 wins, 3000 hits, etc.). If Biggio gets 3000 hits, is he Hall-of-Fame material? I never cared for the induction of Don Sutton, feeling that he benefitted from durability and playing for good teams (even those Brewers teams he played for were pretty good). And I think the Hall breathed a sigh of relief when Fred McGriff never reached 500 home runs. I'd like to hear opinions on Biggio's HOF possibilities.

Rich W.

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Posted By: dennis

yes...1st ballot

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Posted By: Brett

I don't think every guy who gets 3000 hits should be in the Hall of Fame because some of those guys have ****ty career batting averages. Anyone can get 3000 hits given enough at bats.

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Posted By: aro13

Yes - by any standard

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Posted By: Rich W.

Here's Craig's AVERAGE season based upon 162 games played:

620 AB, 175 hits, 106 runs, 38 doubles, 3 triples, 17 HR's, 67 RBI, 68 walks, 98 strikeouts, 25 stolen bases and a .283 batting average. Those stats belong in the Hall???

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Posted By: cmoking

You forgot the most important stat: most of those years were as a 2nd Baseman.

I think he belongs in the HOF.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think that when you evaluate a player from the distant past, you only have his stats to make a determination. But with someone contemporary like Biggio, you have the benefit of being able to watch him play. That said, he plays like a HOFer. I say he deserves to get in.

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Posted By: dennis

in the new bill james historical baseball abstract,james ranks him as the #5 2nd baseman of all time ahead of lajoie,sandberg,gehringer,carew & frish. behind only morgan,collins,hornsby & j. robinson.

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Posted By: J Levine

And let us not forget that he started as a Catcher. I think Biggio will make the Hall...1st ballot? Maybe not...but he certainly deserves to be there.

Joshua

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Posted By: t206King

To be honest, The Hall is getting softer by the year if they start letting guys in with less then .300 avg's etc etc, and stats that doesnt compare to the men in there. its supposed to be for the "Greats" not the So-So players.

Biggio was a second basemen yes. but lajoie was also. he was extremely great batsman. Biggio was all over the place with avg;s and injuries etc etc.

The last 10 or so years have let in some questionable players and not hall of fame material from my standards. Some of the Negro leaguers by far shouldnt have gotten in. But they picked the best players from there league. I dont know just my 2 cents.

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Posted By: Jason

and he certainly doesn't strike me as a HOFer...he's not got that "bigger than life" quality you look for in your HOFer superstar persona...and he's never had any mindblowing performances or long-term stats, either. No great postseason heroics, really...If he gets in, you can immediately add him to the list of yawners like Bruce Sutter, Dennis Eckersley, Gary Carter, Bill Mazeroski, etc...It's just my 2 cents, but everyone knows I'm right, including Mr. Biggio

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Not so sure I'd agree about Freddy Mcgriff not being HOF material.

-AB- -R- --H- -2B- -HR- -RBI- -Career AVG-
8757 1345 2490 441 493 1550 .284--------Fred Mcgriff

8102 1677 2415 344 536 1509 .298--------Mickey Mantle

He's No Mick. But he was damn good. If he would have played
an entire career in the Bronx, we wouldnt be having this conversation.
Oh, by the way. "Yes" on Biggio.

Regards, Tony Andrea

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Posted By: davidcycleback

With 3,000 hits, I don't have a problem with Biggio in the HOF. 2nd base, good fielder, decent power, stolen bases, played hard. The only thing that would hold him back is batting average and that body armor.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

He's got almost 640 doubles, he's about 20 HR away from 300 and only about 70 hits away from 3,000 and over 1,700 runs scored to go along with over 400 stolen bases. Sure longevity plays a role but he's made the most of it. You figure he started as a catcher and then went to 2B for a majority of his career. If you compare him to other 2B players he's right in the thick of things from a batting statistics stand point.

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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Milestone Tracker
Major League Baseball Hitting Milestones, Milestones Projected 2006
Player Team Stat Career to-Date Milestone Projected Date/Opponent

1. Biggio, Craig HOU G 2707 2708 25th all time, passing George Brett 9/30/06 @ ATL

8. Biggio, Craig HOU H 2929 2931 31st all time, passing Jake Beckley and Rogers Hornsby Next Season

9. Biggio, Craig HOU H 2929 2933 30th all time, passing Willie Keeler Next Season

10. Biggio, Craig HOU R 1776 1783 17th all time, passing Paul Molitor Next Season

11. Biggio, Craig HOU H 2929 2944 29th all time, passing Frank Robinson Next Season

12. Biggio, Craig HOU 2B 637 641 8th all time, passing Honus Wagner Next Season

13. Biggio, Craig HOU AB 10356 10431 15th all time, passing Honus Wagner Next Season

14. Biggio, Craig HOU H 2929 2962 28th all time, passing Sam Crawford Next Season

15. Biggio, Craig HOU R 1776 1799 16th all time, passing Ted Williams Next Season

16. Biggio, Craig HOU 2B 637 647 7th all time, passing Carl Yastrzemski Next Season

17. Biggio, Craig HOU H 2929 3000 Next Season


By the end of next season he is projected to be 27th all time in hits, 7th in doubles, 16th in runs. Pretty good numbers, plus he didn't always have a lot of talent around him.

In the next two years we may see Manny Ramirez reach 500 home runs, plus Arod, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, and Gary Sheffield. How many of these guys are bonafide HOFers? I would say Arod, possibly Thomas, definately not Sheffield and Thome, and I'm not sure about Manny.

Rick

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'm a stats guy, but people get way too wrapped up in stats when it comes to the HOF. The big question for me when it comes to the HOF is, was he the best, or one of the best players at his postion during his career. There is a constant ebb and flow to the game where batters domiante for a time, then pitchers. A player shouldn't be penilized or rewared for the era they happened to play in. This the same reason I think Rice should be in the HOF. He was the most feared hitter in baseball for almost 10 years. No one, and I mean no one struck fear into the heart of pitchers like Rice did until Bonds came along.

I always get a kick out of people who complain about a player reaching some sacred milestone becuase he had longevity. That's the whole point of career milestones, longevity. These same people then complain about Puckett getting in becuase he didn't have any longevity and reach any career milestones. You can't have it both ways.

Biggio is undoubtably a HOFer. He was one of the best, if not the best 2B for much of his career. About the only other 2B was better than him was Robby Alomar, who some think is a HOFer. I don't, even though he was an incredible talent at 2B and brought back the power hitting 2B with speed, ala Joe Morgan.

Jay


I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: James Feagin

If Biggio had played in Boston or New York, he would be called the "best ever". Seriously, how many players spend 19 seasons with the same team anymore; he should get in the Hall just for that.

James

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Biggio is an easy choice and i believe McGriff,since his name was brought up, should be too. Before the McGwire steroid talk, he was an obvious 1st ballot HOF'er,yet McGriff's stats definitely compare favorably to McGwire. For Biggio the easiest way to assess for me besides seeing him all these years,is the fact hes top 20 all-time in runs scored,and you have to score runs to win games.Over 2900 hits right now just helps his case even more

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Posted By: Andrew

He is a 1st ballot HOF in my opinion. Biggio arguably is the 2nd best 2B over the past 50 years behind Morgan. For those who feel he should be left out of the HOF, what exactly is required from a HOF 2B? Should middle infielders just be excluded from HOF consideration?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Are we saying that a .283 hitter who averages 17 HR/yr. is a first ballot HOFer? Or is it also because he is a second baseman?

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Posted By: MikeW

Biggio makes it. Frank Thomas has to make it.. and I don't see how anyone could even question Manny Ramirez. I can see McGriff being left out in the cold.. although I believe he should be in if players like Billy Williams and lesser players are in. I'm still not sure why Freddy hasn't tried to pick up those 7 home runs though. Oh well, Kaline was content with 399.

-oh.. let's also remember McGriff played in the "non juiced ball" era. He led the league with 36 home runs one year.

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Posted By: David Seaborn

Biggio makes it in easily...on the first ballot.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gil, I'd really hate to see the team you would field if you were a GM. You'd have a bunch oaffish louts playing every position merely becuase they could hit .300 and hit HRs.If this truely was the measure of a player and what won games, then we would never see players like Ozzie Smith, Apparicio, etc. There is far more to being considered a great player than hitting. Biggio is a 2B for all intents and purposes when comparing him to other HOFers. On this basis, he is more than qualified to be a HOFer. You can't compare middle infielders to OFs and other power positions.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I'm with Bill James on this one. He thinks Biggio is one of the best ever to play 2b.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Biggio yes...

Thomas, McGriff, Manny.... no no no.

Recall Carter and Puckett, get them back out of there.

Unvote a bunch of the most recent inductees... Because someone was good in Cuba or the Negro leagues is not, by itself, a reason to be in Cooperstown. I'm not saying put all of them back out, but some of them. Otherwise, think of California as an island, and put half a dozen of the good players who're found on Obak cards in the Hall.

Then, do a craniotomy on the rectums of the selection folks, so they can see the wisdom of voting in Ed Reulbach.

And once the dust settles and they've healed from surgery, maybe they'll vote in Ted Simmons, but they don't have to. It just seems he is way more deserving then many who are in. And they could put Torre in, too.

And Pete is welcome anytime he buys an admission ticket, he can stay all day long.

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Posted By: MikeW

Manny Ramirez shouldn't make the Hall? Frank, are we sharing the same reality?

Best hitter and run producer in the American league for years.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Add me to the unvote crowd.

While Biggio seems to have marginal qualifications, there are far too many recent inductees who should not be in.

The HOF should be for the best of the best not just being among the best of their era. Its ridiculous the people the veterans committee are looking at.

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Posted By: MikeW

I also feel it isn't fair to forget about the players in the "3rd deadball era"... The 1980's. Their statistics aren't as "juicy" as the stats of today.. but, the best of the 80's should have as much credit as the best of any decade. We can't protend the 80's and the great players that played in that decade didn't exist.

- the 2nd deadball era being the 60's by the way.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For the HOF, you do compare players against others at that position. 2nd base isn't the same as 1st base or DH-- and if you, as a manager, don't realize this you'll lose a lot of games. There's a reason Mark McGwire didn't play 2nd base. Biggio compares well to HOFers at 2nd base, including Joe Morgan and Ryne Sandberg-- and I think his numbers are solid irrespective of position. For example, 17 home runs is excellent for a lead off hitter. Biggio was never a superstar like Albert Belle and Mo Vaugn, but throughout his career we was widely considered one of the best 2nd basebmen, along with Roberto Alomar.

As I noted earlier, it would be nice if Biggio had a higher batting average.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

David,

His numbers are solid but this is the HOF we are talking about here not the NL All-Star team. What if Soriano was playing second? I think stats ought to be looked at versus others playing different positions. Shortstops used to be considered a light-hitting position but no more.

Jim

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Posted By: davidcycleback

First, Soriano sucks as an infielder fielder and you need a good fielder at 2nd base and SS. Roberto Alomar was a superior 2nd baseman, as he was an excellent fielder. If a player is moved from a position because he can't field the position, as with Soriano, it's dubious to transpose his hitting numbers to that position.

I am only offering my opinion on Biggio, and I don't have a HOF vote so don't worry. Notice that I was diplomatic enough to never post that I would vote for Biggio. Rather I said I wouldn't object to him being in the HOF.

One of my personal rules for a Hall of Fame is you must be able to field a great baseball team from its memebers. Just as a football team needs more than quarterbacks and running backs, a baseball team needs more than Babe Ruths. You need good fielding 2nd basemen and catchers to have a great team. If a top current pro team would beat the Hall of Fame team, because the football Hall doesn't have enough offensive lineman or the baseball HOF doesn't have anyone who can field 2nd base and short shop, it says you have a crappy Hall of Fame.

A common NFL fan question is "Should a place kicker be elected to the Hall of Fame?" My answer is the Hall has to have a place kicker, because you can't field a winning football team without one.

.......

From my fielding-a-team perspective, I would argue that Ozzie Smith was the superior short stop over Alex Rodriguez or Ernie Banks. My reasoning being that if a Joe Torre, Tony Larussa, Walt Alston or other great manager had all three players on his team, he'd always put Ozzie at shorstop. Alex and Ernie could play play third or outfielder or whatever, but there would be no question in the manager's mind Ozzie would play short.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Who can forget his imitation of a QB in the Super Bowl. My grandmother could throw better and she's dead.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

To ensure winning ways, don't put Soriano at 2nd base, Yepremian at quarterback and Jim Marshall as team bus navigator.