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  #1  
Old 10-24-2006, 12:38 PM
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Default Southern California Sports Club in the 1970s

Posted By: Chris Counts

In response to a thread by Jack Goodman about Goodwin Goldfaden, another board member (Griffins) brought up the Southern California Sports Club. As a teenager in the late 70s, I always looked forward to these meetings, which I recall were held in a place called the Isacc Walton School (in Garden Grove?). Later, they were moved to a recreation center in Fountain Valley. There were other locations scattered around (San Feranado Valley, San Gabriel Valley), but I recall the Orange County events were the best attended.

The mood at these "meetings" was very laid back and friendly, although collectors would always have an eye on the door as "finds" showed up unannounced on a semi-regular basis. The hobby was a lot different then, and the (lack of) monetary value of cards was a big part part of that. I was only about 14 or 15 at the time, but I could buy just about any card I wanted (or trade for it!) for the simple reason they weren't worth that much. A t206 would sell for about a buck, while Goudeys and Diamond Stars would go for twice that much. I recall buying a 1934 Goudey of Lou Gehrig (with sharps corners) for $30, and several of my collecting buddies thought I was nuts.

I'm curious how many collectors are still out there who attended these small, but wonderful meetings. I've lost touch with most of them (I now live in the San Francisco Bay Area), but among the regulars I recall were John Parks, Mike Berkus, Tony Galovich, Wally Bohl, Wes Schleiger, Gavin Riley and Steve Brunner. There was also a guy named Hal (I can't recall his last name ... I remember he always wore shorts and I think he was a teacher) and he was the first guy I met who truly cared about the corners on a card. The designation "excellent-to-mint" was the highest grade a card could achieve until Hal came along, or so it seemed. Most guys just didn't pay that much attention. This was long before top holders, and the pages with plastic sleeves were just starting to show up. I bet most collectors were still using rubber bands and shoe boxes at this time ...

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Old 10-24-2006, 12:57 PM
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Posted By: Griffin's

I certainly remember them- at one point I was the vice president, for what little that was worth.
The meetings were initially at the school that John Parks taught at. At the outset they were free and then they started charging an annual membership fee.
I found out about them about '73 or '74 when Merv Williams, a local dealer often remembered as he had an amputated leg, ran an ad in the Santa Monica Evening Outlook seeking out other collectors to attend the meetings. Myself and a few friends responded and Merv drove us to the meetings for the next few years, never allowing us to pitch in a dime for gas.
Besides the collectors/dealers mentioned above, Clay Hill was very involved (he was the pres the year I was vp) as was Tom Tuttlemeyer and Goody Goldfadden.
The meetings always started with buying and selling, followed by a formal meeting and then an auction. The big convention was at the Anaheim Hyatt every August. I had tons of '60's and '70's cards I had picked up from other kids that were no longer interested and often traded mass amounts for T205's and T206's. Condition didn't mean that much for the most part, but Jim Nowell (who I believe founded the first annual convention in '69) was always very particular about his cards. Jim, Gavin Riley, Clay,Tom T. and Merv were all very good about helping young collectors, some of the others would take advantage whenever possible. I probably learned more about business from those meetings than anything I ever studied in school
I stopped collecting early in '76 and didn't get back until '99. The only person I've seen from those days was Clay Hill, who still works for SCP, I believe.

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Old 10-24-2006, 01:09 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Do you remember seeing any really rare stuff back in those days? My first year in the hobby was 1982, and I remember that most of the business that transacted was in Topps and Bowman. Back then Pete Rose rookies were so hot that dealers would put them in their display cases with "not for sale" signs on them. They were holy grails back then. Today you can put them back in your bicycle spokes. The sense I have is that in those days the very rare and early cards barely ever transacted. When you look at old copies of the Trader Speaks, you almost never see them listed for sale.

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Old 10-24-2006, 01:22 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

What I most remember from that era was card shops. And the proprietors always trying to sell goudeys, playballs and when pressed, t206s. They had other stuff, but it was a hassle to get it out - and then they "knew nothing about it" and neither did I. It was the '80s before I got to see an OJ up close and personal. And I bought it, and another and had enuff left from my $100. to get a Dockman common (a card with color) and a w502 Hornsby.

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Old 10-24-2006, 01:24 PM
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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I got started around 1981. I went to a monthly show in Granada Hills (CA) run by Eric Cooper & David Hamilton. Clay Hill set up there as did Tony Galovich, and the guy who got busted for printing up the fake Rose rookie cards. I was focused on 50s & 60s stuff for the most part. Some dealers dealt exclusively in Topps complete sets of the 50s-70s. There was tobacco era material and some caramel issues but the most exotic cards I remember were N172s. The new Fleer and Donruss issues were big that year. My first exposure to the exotic stuff was through Lew Lipet's books and his Old Judge newsletter.

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Old 10-24-2006, 01:37 PM
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Posted By: Mike Ernst

This brings back memories--I was an early 20-year old in the early 70's, collecting contemporary cards as well as vintage ones.
Around our dining room table in 1973 in a town of 275 in North-central Wisconsin we had Dick Millerd, George Husby, Ron Greenwood, and Jack Urban with their cards as we swapped stories and cards for many hours. At that time regionals were really the thing to do if you weren't into Topps. I sold complete sets of 57-62 Topps for $30-35 and was making money off them. Found 150 1966 Topps rack packs in a surplus store in Antigo, WI, for $10. (Summer of 1973)(wish I had kept more than the 7 I still have). The TRADER SPEAKS and Dan Dischley was about the only way to establish contact with other collectors. I also recall condition not being all that important, and T206 Johnsons, Cobbs, etc. being little more valuable than commons (50 cents to a buck each). Rich Egan's T-206 checklist was the in-vogue guide, and pioneers like Lionel Carter and others corresponded with us newbies in hand-written notes. That was a very different world in the hobby!

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Old 10-24-2006, 01:45 PM
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Default Southern California Sports Club in the 1970s

Posted By: warshawlaw

It was the West Coast Card Club. I usually took a dealer table there and generally purchased some stuff through the auctions. That show was the highlight of my month. Looking back, I was awash in old cards by then due to so many family friends giving me their adult kids' cards. Mostly all 1950s and 1960s stuff, although I did have a handful of prewar, mostly stuff I purchased in low grade for a few bucks. I also used to attend the Anaheim shows; did great there. My parents would drop me at the hotel in the morning, take my sister to Disneyland, and pick me up later.

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  #8  
Old 10-24-2006, 02:02 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

There weren't any card shows or shops in my area until about 1986 except for a guy who ran a shop out of his basement. I run into people to this very day who when we start to discuss cards will bring up that little basement shop. At that time I never even paid any attention to anything besides Topps/Fleer/Donruss so I didn't really care much about the older stuff, but I distinctly recall a guy at the local once a month flea market that would bring a big binder full of T206, Cracker Jacks and other assorted prewar cards....I never bought any, but I always looked through the binder. I guess I thought the $5-10 prices he had on the cards was outrageous when I could buy 10-15 packs of 1985 fleer cards at the next guys table. I'd probably still be buying that crap if my dad hadn't introduced me to the N172 Old Judge set.

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Old 10-24-2006, 02:17 PM
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Posted By: Chris Counts

When I come to think, I can picture Clay Hill, Jim Nowell and Merv Williams. I don't have any recollection about the guy who reprinted the Rose rookies, but I probably knew him. I'm curious who he was. I remember the Rose rookie craze. It was like a plague What I do recall was that going to those meetings was like being a little kid in a candy store. Discovering cards from the 1950s was such a revelation to me I hardly had time to consider the possibilities of pre-war cards. I certainly had no idea so many varieties existed. There were white borders, gold borders, Goudeys and Play Balls. I hardly noticed the rest.

Barry, regarding the rare stuff, what remember most was that "serious" collectors were after tough cards from the 1950s. Most collectors I knew from this era were about 10 years older than me, and collected cards as youngsters in the late 1950s. After completing the Topps and Bowman sets from the era, which was reasonably easy to do (except for 1952 Topps), many of these guys started going after 50s regionals like Dan Dee, Stahl Meyers, Wilson Franks, etc. I saw way more of these cards then than I see now. Usually they were pretty beat up, but no one seemed to mind. There was also a thriving market for West Coast regionals like Mothers Cookies, Bell Brands and Morrells. But I doubt most of these guys would have known the difference between an e120 and an e121.

Like another board member related, I learned more about business during these meetings than in any course I ever took in college. But more than that, I felt like I was a part of tight-knit community of collectors, very much the way this board feels to me. We would regularly visit each other in our homes, which typically resembled baseball museums. Now a lot of collectors stash their best stuff in a safe deposit box or safe (I know I do!). But back then, nobody was too concerned about being ripped off ... it just wasn't that big of a risk ... ah, the good, old days ...

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Old 10-24-2006, 02:42 PM
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Posted By: Griffin's

Barry- I don't recall any rarer stuff, but it was out of my realm then so I probably didn't notice as much. I always wanted a T3 and an Old Judge, but could never afford them. I did see them pretty regularly, but as Chris related there was a pretty heavy slant towards west coast regionals, and Kahn's if you were really exotic. The holy grail was probably something like a '58 Bell Brand Cimoli, it's still a very tough card in a tough set and being in LA very desireable at the time. Remar's got a lot of play, but interestingly they may be the only thing back then that didn't keep pace with inflation, let alone go up.
It was fun in that nothing cost as much relatively as it does now, but you also didn't see nearly as much. Along with rising prices there has been an increase in availability (probably because of rising prices) with ebay and auction houses.
I was at the '76 Anaheim show when a guy (Dennis W. if memory serves, don't want to use his last name in case I"m mistaken) set up with a whole lot of '59 Fleer #68's. They were all fake and Irv Lerner exposed it, and he (Dennis) was told to leave. This was before the Rose rookie fiasco that was after my time.
While the good old days were fun, I think things are a whole lot better now. Prices are higher, but you can find a card on ebay tonite that you would've search shows for years for back then- if you even knew it existed. The information shared on this and other boards makes for both better knowledge and better comaraderie, and all things considered I'll take today over yesterday hands down.

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:02 PM
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Posted By: TONY

Hey Chris: Are you the one that drove the yellow 924 Porsche? If so I wondered what happened to you....

Galovich

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:15 PM
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Posted By: Scott M

Mike E.

Was this the Egan checklist you were referring to?



I grew up on the East Coast and cut my collecting teeth at the early Willow Grove shows but we used that checklist quite a bit as well...

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:33 PM
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Posted By: Mark Macrae

I remember going to the Labor Day shows at (I believe) the Quality Inn in Anaheim. The ballroom was on the second floor. Although there were only 75 or so tables you could spend a few days there. Goodwin Goldfaden was set up just to the right of the entrance, Dave Mathews was in the far right corner, John Spalding off to the left & Will Davis with his table of '64 Giants dead ahead in front of you. I seem to recall Tony Galovich was along the back aisle near a window (Tony, you've been out of circulation for so long , I thought someone pushed you out that window)........ Barry there wasn't much of the exotic stuff on display. Most of those types of transactions were discreetly handled before the show started.... During that period there were great shows here in the Bay Area, especially at Acalanes High School in Lafayette. My vintage fix and available budget at the time were taken care of at our shows. Material is much more readily available today, albeit at slighter higher (100-200 times) price....

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:42 PM
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Posted By: Matt federgreen

I've been a long time lurker, but after reading this post I couldn't resist keeping off any longer. Oh the memories. My first meeting was in 76'. I was 13 and was brought by Al Savage. (I use to mow his lawn for cards) . He also lived across the street from Nelson Katz another old timer who I heard past away a few years ago. What ever happened to Mark Christensen (Wasn't he 6' 10'' tall). I remember buying 65' Carltons from him for a buck. He pulled them out of a 500 count vending box filled with just Carltons.

I also remember the West Coast Card Club meetings starting around 77' held at the Northridge Woman's Club. I remember buying Ryan and Bench rookies from Max Himmelstein still in his commons.

What about the time that Tony Galovich chased a kid down the hill at the convention at the Universal Sheraton for taking a notebook fill with cards. He caught him then carried him back up the hill. That's a big hill.

Wasn't Bill Hietman was part of that original group.

The guy who was caught for the Rose Rookies was David Soffer (I think that's how you spell his name). However, I think there were a few others involved. That was in 83' if memory serves me.

Now that I'm here I will try to continue to add to this great resource.

Matt. BH Baseball Card Shop

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Old 10-24-2006, 05:59 PM
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Posted By: Griffin's

Mark- the Quality Inn must've been after my time, I still have the badge somewhere for the Hyatt show, it was August 9,10, and 11, 1974.
Because of something that happened at that show (never got the exact details) at the next show there was someone working the door who's job it was to insure no one walked in with collections they didn't know the value of. If they did it instantly went into the days live auction. A lot different than today where your leg gets jumped should you walk in with a case of some type.

Matt- do you ever hear or see Merv Williams?

Anthony

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:05 PM
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Posted By: Rich Mueller

Mike,

At least you kept some of those '66 racks. Is Dick Millerd still around? I grew up not too far from there. There were a lot of those little get-togethers and small shows back then.

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:14 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

As Mark said all the rare material is more available today. My real question is where was all the great stuff back then? All the Kalamazoo Bats and Four Base Hits and Yum Yums and G&B's and rare candy cards, etc. that are in collections today were somewhere back in the 1970's. But where were they? I don't know if anyone has the answer, but did it have to do with the fact that they weren't worth enough for people to consider selling them? Or was there a complete disinterest and lack of knowledge? Even with the proliferation of vintage collectors today, rare material is available in nearly every good auction. But with only a tiny number of collectors back then, you would have expected the stuff to be everywhere with few if any takers. It just seems to me a bit incongruous.

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:16 PM
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Posted By: Richard Masson

I set up a few times on one of the lunch benches at the elementary school in Garden Grove. I was only a pre-teen at the time (so my Dad had to drive me down there-about an hour)and I was mostly dealing with autographs. I was an early fan of Jack Smalling (Ames, Iowa) and his sheets that checklisted players alphabetically by debut year. I've still got my checklist, but the autographs were mostly sold to start another business.

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:30 PM
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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Incongruous my eye!
Knowing what you know now, Barry, what would you buy at ACC - SCB prices in 1970?
Right!
You would buy it all.
What is incongruous is to think that there was no dreamers with the forsight and the pocketbook to put a few grand into that dream.
Even if only because they liked the material, and would have a heck of a time going through it.
And I believe that there exists a bulk of material still there.

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:39 PM
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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think more material is available today because of Ebay. Ebay has given the incentive for ordinary folk to look up in grandma's attic. Anyone can be an antique dealer today...back then you needed a shop.

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Old 10-24-2006, 06:50 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

No question higher values and more publicity brought cards out of the attic, but were these very rare cards still undiscovered in the 1970's? Was there a cache a Four Base Hits sitting in a cigar box unknown to the collecting world? I was fortunate in my early days in the hobby, mostly the 1980's and early 90's, to buy maybe a couple of dozen original family collections. But virtually every one contained primarily T205, T206, maybe a few t210, small groups of e-cards- but nobody every offered me a shoebox of Yum Yum's. Have any oldtime collectors- Mark Macrae or anyone else- ever found cards of that magnitude in a shoebox find? I remember Ron Oser's great Kalamazoo Bats find in the 1980's, an N321 find sometime later, but that's one or two in twenty years. I believe most of the rare cards known today were known in the 1970's, and some collectors had them- but nobody seemed to offer them for sale. Again, go back to the hobby publications from 25 years ago and notice that virtually nothing rare and exotic was being offered.

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Old 10-24-2006, 07:12 PM
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Posted By: Matt O

I am also a long time lurker that couldn't resist this topic. In the early 70's I was involved in the card shows in the Cincinnati and Dayton Ohio areas. T-206 Cobbs were $5, 1933 Goudey Ruths were $30. Unlike some of the other posts I just read, I did see a lot of rare stuff. I once bought a World Series Program from the 50's that was in a plastic holder. After walking away I pulled the program out of the plastic and 2 Kalamazoo Bats Cabinets fell out from between the pages. Hard to believe, but I actually returned the 2 cards to a surprised Cliff and Ron Lambert who I had just purchased the program from. Carmel cards didn't seem very popular and I remember seeing quite a few of them. Anyway, those were the good old days and its really interesting to read everyones recollections.

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Old 10-24-2006, 07:15 PM
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Posted By: Leon

I would politely disagree a little bit. I think there are still many good finds hidden away in attics, old sheds, inside walls, etc.....Look what has come out in the last 3-4 yrs. I sort of like the SGC graded '14 CJ set last year. A 96- Mint Jackson....doesn't get too much better than that!! Look at what Dave Levin has found in the last few years, the Ruth cards coming up in REA...the great stuff Mastro always has that's new to the hobby......and many others....even I had a little find that was fairly significant. I do think they're still more out there. These "finds" will be harder for dealers to acquire with the accessability of technology though. I would think most Americans have at least heard of that little company "Ebay". Anyone can hop on there and search for an old baseball card, find dealers, auction houses get contact info etc.. and go from there. I strongly believe there will be significant finds for the next several years....We shall see....btw, I agree that a lot of the marque cards have been around for years I just think there will be many more...kind regards

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Old 10-24-2006, 08:34 PM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

The cards on the tables at those shows were everyone's dupes. No one at those 1970s meets and shows (except Goldfadden) made a living at this stuff; they all had "straight" jobs. Real rarities of today were every bit as rare then, perhaps more so since all of the attic finds of the last 20 years were still in attics then.

One show I do recall seeing a table filled, and I mean filled, with Zeenuts and Home Run Kisses in loose stacks. There were hundreds of them. I knew what they were but didn't care.

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Old 10-24-2006, 08:51 PM
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Posted By: Mike Ernst

Rich Mueller--where did you grow up in central Wisconsin? Dick Millerd was still around a couple of years ago.

Scott M.--that's the Egan checklist all right! Still have mine arranged that way--one of these days need to redo them, but moving 520 of them around may get me confused!

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Old 10-24-2006, 09:03 PM
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Posted By: Steve Dawson

I grew up in San Diego and went to the monthly shows at Parkway Bowl in El Cajon starting around 1977 or so. There were also occasional shows elsewhere in San Diego County that I'd go to. I remember seeing Tony Galovich, Steve Brunner, Will Davis, Charlie Seaver, Bill Heitman and I think Gavin Reilly at them pretty regularly. The only pre-war cards I remember seeing were Goudeys, and T205s, T206s and T207s. I bought nearly all the T206 HOFers back then in probaly around vg-ex shape. I absolutely loved the early tobacco cards and bought every HOFer I could find and afford. I don't remember seeing any 19th Century stuff until the first "San Diego Show" in 1981 or 1982, and that was from Larry Shane, who came out all the way from Philadelphia. I bought N28s of Clarkson and Keefe from him. I also remember my main interest seemed to be 1955 Topps baseball, as each one of the Parkway Bowl shows would see me head straight for Steve Brunner's table and pick through his '55s (commons were going for 25 cents each, and high #s were 75 cents each! )

Once I got my driver's license in 1978, I'd also drive up to Escondido and visit Nelson Katz' store, along with Bill Goepner's store in downtown San Diego. I even ended up working for Bill and Nacho Arredondo for a while in the early 1980s prior to joining the Air Force in 1985.

Steve

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Old 10-24-2006, 09:14 PM
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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Matt, I was there when Tony Galovich ran after that guy and caught him at the Universal Sheraton. I was only a couple of tables away from Tony's table when I saw him start yelling and take off like a bat out of hell. I never mentioned it on this forum before because I didn't think anyone would believe me. Now I have corroboration! Ah, the good old days . . .

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Old 10-25-2006, 12:04 AM
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Posted By: Rich Mueller

Mike..

Fox Valley area. Used to go to the shows in Milwaukee fairly often from the late 70s to early-mid 1980s. Had a table set up next to Frank Fulop, the original Hartland artist, for several years. Heckuva nice guy. I'm glad I don't remember the prices.

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Old 10-25-2006, 12:06 AM
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Posted By: JimB

Matt F.
Welcome. I am glad you have moved from lurking status. Matt is one of the good guys in the hobby. If you all are ever in L.A., definately check out his shop, Beverly Hills Baseball Cards. But you have to ask to see the old stuff because it mostly is not in the cases.

My first shows in L.A. were at the Sheraton by LAX around '79 or '80. I was 13 and completely blown away! I was trying to get every Topps Aaron at the time and remember picking up a '54 Aaron. I don't remember the exact price, but it must have been about 1/100th what it would cost today.
JimB

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Old 10-25-2006, 12:13 AM
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Posted By: Andrew

I grew up in Garden Grove and attended elementary school at Brookhurst. I also worked at the aforementioned Hyatt of Anaheim. I entered the show scene around '80, where I have fond memories of the monthly Fountain Valley rec center meetings; I think a very tall shop owner named Mark Christiansen ran them. One of my earliest dealer purchases was a ’71 Kelloggs set for $150 purchased from a young David Kohler out of the trunk of his corvette.

“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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Old 10-25-2006, 05:16 AM
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Default Southern California Sports Club in the 1970s

Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- I agree there are some great things still to be found and perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I wanted. What I meant to say was if you look at some of the early hobby publications, you virtually never see great 19th century cards being offered, and we can't assume all of them were found in the last 10-20 years. Somebody somewhere had this great stuff and knew what it was and had it as part of their collection/inventory, but it never seemed to be for sale. Pull out a 1976 Trader Speaks and look at what percentage of the material being offered was Topps, Bowman, Goudey, etc. and then try to find some great 19th century rarities in those ads. Likewise, when I went to shows in the early 80's, every other table had a 52 Mantle or a 63 Rose, but virtually none had early material. Where was the rare stuff hiding?

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Old 10-25-2006, 06:04 AM
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Default Southern California Sports Club in the 1970s

Posted By: leon

Ok...that makes more sense. I think you are right. I have about 50-60 Trader Speaks and look over them often. I can only remember a handful of rare 19th Century cards being mentioned....

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Old 10-27-2006, 04:28 PM
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Default Southern California Sports Club in the 1970s

Posted By: TONY

Hey Bruce, I almost forgot about chasing the kid who stole a binder of my baseball cards,
that kid probably picked the only dealer in the room who could have chased him down,
He ran all the way down to Lankershim blvd, even though it was almost all downhill it was a battle
as the kid was a top runner on his high school cross country team,
He should of stole from Kit Young not me,
After I caught him I punched him, but I was so tired he didn't even feel my punch to his chest,
I came back with the thief, called the cops & had him arrested, but being a minor all he would get was a slap on the wrist
but later his father showed up, a 6' 3" biker type with 10 tattos on his body,
he basically threatened me if i pressed charges on his theiving son,
I never did, but got all my cards back, I was really lucky to get them back
Being a competitive runner at the time saved me a few thousand dollars in potential losses at the time plus a LA Times reporter who was there at the time did a story on the incident which was in the next days paper

the good ole days!!!

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