THE BIG BUYERS IN OUR HOBBY

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

No this post is not going to list all of the big buyer in our great hobby. What it is going to do is hopefully let some people know that most of the BIG money buyers out there are, believe it or not, are true collectors. I know and deal with three of the top buyers in the market today (there privacy is going to be saved so don't ask) All I hear lately is how most true collectors are getting priced out of the market, but I see time after time those same exact "True Collectors" many of these great board members, cashing in on the high end buyers and there insane money. I guess my complaint is, don't cry on this board about getting out bid on items that you "think" is being bought by none educated buyers and investors. Believe it or not they are being bought buy great collectors who deserve these items and have been collecting for a very long time. By the way they all read this board and see your posts. Just a little gripe. I know most of the people here don't know who I am but I think most people don't realize that the whole hobby reads this board now. Just a post from a very little guy in our great vintage world.
Trevor Hocking

p.s. I do love you guys. I read everyday.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Trevor - you dont happen to go by the ebay id "rooky13" do you?

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Posted By: John

Trevor;

I think that’s great. Good for you. I don’t believe that anyone on this board has ever said that all collectors with large amounts of discretionary income are un-educated collectors. And only us guys who work 9-5 are the true collectors. I can think of several people on this board who are very much “true collectors” and are financially well off.

I for one on several occasions have said the hobby is getting too rich for my blood, and based on what I want to collect in the future and given my current financial situation. My collecting chances are very limited. I can comprehend that there are individuals of wealth that love and know this hobby, but even you have to admit there are some who may not love the hobby and are just buying for investment purposes only, who can drive prices up on all collectors.

This hobby is very big and loved by all to a degree, to say that the “whole hobby” reads this board is a little arrogant on your part. To think that you know the whole hobby clientele list, is just as wrong as saying “people with money who collect don’t know the hobby like I do” isn’t that your complaint. I know several people with large collections who are friends of mine who do not read or were unaware of this board and the topics discussed here. I myself wasn’t aware of this place until several years ago and I have always been an avid collector. I'm glad I found this place, the people are nice and its fun to talk cards good or bad with fellow collectors.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, Rooky13 is from Miami and his first name starts with J.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I know Trevor. He is a nice guy and a class act. But I must disagree with him. In the last 2 years I have met over a dozen guys who have "jumped" in blindly with tons of "dumb" money. I know many read this board but it is still my opinion. A few have become very good friends of mine and constantly call or write for advice. I meet these types by being out bid on something I really want and then asking the auction house to give them my contact info. Also, writing on ebay if they bumped me there.

New blood is great for the hobby. All hobbies need that to keep growing. There is nothing wrong with it. But yes, I much preferred the old days when I actually had a chance to buy something I wanted. I cannot compete now on most things I want because I have a normal middle class job and a family. There is nothing wrong with people having alot more money than me to spend on this hobby, but it is also my right to cry about it.

I am accepting donations for everyone who feels sorry for me J/K.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Trevor- No one is suggesting that because somebody spends huge sums of money that he is not a true collector and doesn't know what he is doing. But when a few collectors have so much money that they can pretty much get whatever they want regardless of the price, it does skew the market a bit for top end material. And as I said on a different post, it does mean some of the prices realized are not a fair assessment of what something is worth. Take the heavy hitters off a lot, and the price may plummet. A very small number have a large control over what high end items sell for.

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Posted By: PASJD

Barry with due respect I think a card at any given time is "worth" what people including wealthy collectors will pay for it -- that's the essence of a free market economy. Asking what the price would be "but for" the collectors who are relatively price-inelastic because they are so well off does not seem to me anyhow to yield a "true" value. That said, I wish stuff was cheaper.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

For every half-million dollar trophy ball and quarter-million dollar Babe Ruth card there are thousands of "run of the mill" E, N and T cards that can be scooped up by collectors/investors with seemingly unlimited discretionary income.

Small budget collectors wouldn't even consider the big ticket items, but will be left out in the cold on the items they used to be able to afford if the deep-pocket guys sweep the market clean.

Dan, I'm with you (crying and holding my hand out for donations) along with a lot of the rest of us on this board in the vintage baseball card welfare line!

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Posted By: NOT a big buyer

It's not that difficult to find out who the big buyers are in the hobby. Just go to the PSA registry web site & look at the names/entries...

Is Marshall Fogel still a big buyer ??

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Posted By: Andy Baran

The PSA Registry is not a good source of information regarding who the "Big Buyers" are. MANY of them would never slab a card, let alone register a collection.

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Posted By: PASJD

Andy is right. While certainly there are some highly visible big collectors who (and I am not judging just observing) have chosen to make their acquisitions a matter of public knowledge and even public competition, it would be a mistake to assume that they comprise the majority of folks shelling out huge bucks for cards.

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Posted By: leon

I agree. I think the vast majority of collections are private. It's sort of a shame but to each their own and I certainly respect their privacy. regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Are the "private" guys now in a dilemma???

If they HAVE some very rare cards... then those cards are now very valuable...

but are their cards ONLY so valuable because people do NOT know that there are several of them hidden in private collections??

I'm just wondering.

If EVERY card in America was disclosed and registred...

would the VALUE of vintage cards go DOWN as a whole???

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Posted By: PASJD

My guess would be that only at the very high end, where cards are perceived as unique or close to it and that perception (or fact) is driving the price (Reccius Wagner for example ) that values would drop if it turned out there were more out there. I doubt it would affect the value of most cards because I don't think anyone really assumes the PSA/SGC pop reports reflect all the known examples. As Leon noted, I think most people assume there are a lot of high end private collections out there many of which include unslabbed cards.

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Posted By: J Levine

Hello all...
Many of you know me personally and many more know me through my research and collection. I focus mainly on Phillies, T-205, and Obak. I spent 3 years developing a listing of all Phillies pre-1980 (never truly complete as stuff is found and added all the time).

I am what I call just a poor teacher/collector. I teach 1st grade in a state where the cost of living is horrific. My free income is very small. Probably around $50 a month (and whatever I can buy low and sell high on ebay). That being said...I still enjoy the hobby. There is enough out there to keep me interested and happy. Funds are tight but I have found some great bargains over the last few years. Will I ever own a Delahanty OJ Cabinet? Lajoie W-600? Kalamazoo Bats Phillies? Nope...does it sadden me...in a way yes, I would love to be a completist when it comes to the Phillies collection but as a realist, I know, short of a lottery win, I will not be able to afford those. It was nice that Terry Knouse let me examine some truly vintage stuff including some proofs, some cabinets, and some type cards to help research the phillies list. Kit Young let me rifle through nearly the entire deck of Allegheny cards to see which Phillies were depicted (I still kick myself for not grabbing one that he offered for $250!). Dealers and collectors alike have been wonderful overall.

The other thing that keeps me going is the "finds". I have found over the last few years a few true bargains incl. the playball set, n-300 anson, n-172 Mccarthy, and a t-205 gray w/ stats. Find do happen and the knowledgeable little collector can still find some high dollar cards for some low dollar prices especially if you are not condition sensitive.

So...good luck to all...just remember to take pity once in awhile on the poor teacher

-Joshua

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Posted By: Julie

In the previous thread on this topic, sort of, "How much money is there out there," several people said there were people who actually used cards as a portfolio, having replaced their stocks and bonds with them. And to whom a card meant nothing more than whatever money it would bring in.

I think to say these people do not exist is foolishness.

Of course there are lucky and industrious collectors who have a lot of dough. But there are also investors, pure and simple, who have a lot of dough.

I did not have enough money--I thought!--to bid in the REA. However, there were several lots which I thought went quite reasonably--the Dukes cabinets, for instance. The rare Boston Kelly portrait, for instance. If you want a T210 Jackson, you're going to find yourself in mighty good company! Increasingly so.

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Posted By: Poor puny Jewish slob

Joshua --

I'm even poorer than you. But, you'll see me at the big shows. I'm the puny, Jewish slob looking a lot, but spending very little....

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Posted By: barrysloate

To reply to PASJD's post- I agree completely that any commodity is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at that moment in time. But I think it is implied in this thread as well as the related one that if what somebody is willing to pay tomorrow is a lot less than they are willing to pay today, then a lot of investors would not be happy. However, those who conversely can't afford today's prices but want to build a vintage collection would be happy. If the two or three collectors who were willing to pay a quarter million for a 1914 Babe Ruth dropped out of the hobby and the next time it appeared it sold for less than half, is that good or bad? I'm not saying that is what I think will happen, but just asking.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I couldn't roll out of bed and buy the Ruth card any day of the week like I could the Wagner T206, which appears in every auction. Until the factory hoard of 1914 Ruths show up, price is not relevant. Anyone want to sell me a Ruth for $125k? Would you rather own a couple of double print 1952 Mantles? The prospect of a high print on the Ruth card is what made it available to purchase. When the correction comes, you want the Ruth, not the VG E90-1s.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

This good ol' optomist boy thinks that the correction is about over. The real price rise was between 1975 - 1990. The past fifteen years has been the correction. Fasten your seatbelts guys!

And if I am dead wrong - you certainly don't want the Ruth. You want the common and not so common PSA 1s, 2s and 3s. They won't be affected as much; in part because the field of bidders for these cards is broad.

edited to try to correct spelling, not sure if I was successful

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Posted By: JimB

"you have to admit there are some who may not love the hobby and are just buying for investment purposes only"

I have never met such a person (a handful of dealers aside) in 25 years in the hobby. The way to acquire enough knowledge about cards and their value trends to make money on them as investments requires so much time that one would have to enjoy and love the cards to some degree to do it. Joe investeter from Wall Street doesn't say to himself, " I should pull my money out of the stock market and put it in baseball cards." Some collectors may think of the money they spend on their collections as potential investments in the sense that they are conscious that if they need to sell them at some point they may be confident that t he cards will retain their value or increase in value, but these are not people who are buying cards for "investment purposes only".
JimB

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Posted By: warshawlaw

my collection for that Ruth, even though the Ruth is worth several times what my collection is worth. I have too many cards that are as rare as the Ruth (though obviously not perceived as such) that I could never reasonably hope to replace.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Richard, no question the Ruth is far rarer than the T206 Wagner or the 52 Mantle, but when a market sours nobody wants to sink world's record prices into 1914 Ruths either. When a market goes bad, even the rare ones will take a hit, perhaps not as drastic, but they won't appreciate in a bad market. Do you agree?

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Posted By: Robert

THe bottom line is we are all jealous of the people who have the means to buy the best and we are forced to get the lower end. If we had the funds I am sure we would be doing the same, I am just as happy with my lower quality stuff as I am sure the person who only buys mint is with theirs. After all we do this for the enjoyment of collecting and why do guys always have to make it a pissing contest or who has the biggest you know what @$#%.

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Posted By: barrysloate

it's not good to be jealous of those who have more; there is always someone who has less and we should all be happy if we are blessed with good health and decent lives. Don't be jealous of someone's baseball cards.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I agree with Richard. I would rather own the Ruth than a Wagner, several high PSA graded '52 Mantles or half a trophy ball. One may argue that prices in general have gotten too high; only time will tell. However, on a relative valuation basis I like the Ruth purchase alot more than most other high dollar purchases made during the current auction season.

On a personal basis, the one that I think is nuts is that $200,000 1911 curtain with baseball player pictures on it.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

One, if a correction occurs, the really rare cards won't trade. Values might be marked down on paper, but there will be very little supply. I think Copeland was an exception. Two, Gilbert, I couldn't disagree more. If a correction comes, the world will be awash in VG T206s and E cards.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jay:

That's not a curtain with ballplayers on it.

That's my great-grandfather's old silk boxers after they came apart at the seams!

Maybe that was part of the $200,000 value... the fact that they were once worn by my "Pop Pop" when he went to watch games at the Polo Grounds?

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Obviously they are not my great grandfather's or someone would have thought that the color barrier was broken in baseball prior to 1911.

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Posted By: quan

That was a killer!!! Post of the Month...

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Posted By: Yes !!!

Barry S. --- Well said !!!

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Posted By: Anonymous

That was a very funny joke Jay. But you are ripping on a uncut sheet of S81 silks. So if a sheet of 1890 N172 cards came up for auction in this current market you would have no problem seeing a crazy number for that?, because that is what you collect. Granted the S81's are not as tough as a lot of N172's but most of the commons are still very tough, let alone an uncut sheet. I'm sure the silk went to a very dedicated silk collector. I think the price was fair market. Well that was an obvious statement because the current market paid that price. What do people think this stuff will be worth in future who knows, and who cares. I agree with everyone in collect what you like at your means. All I was trying to say is that most of this stuff is going to private collectors who love it and will have it for a very long time!!!! A those of you "Dealers" who sell to them can't have your cake and eat it to. Are there investors involved, of-course, but think, if we all sit back you will see that in most cases when you buy a card or better yet a group you always think if you are paying a fair market price. Sure you may pay three times what you think it's worth because you just had to own it, but never the less you still thought about it. That sounds like investing to me. I know, what about one of a kind items. There's always another close item to all most every "one of a kinds" for you to come up with a close price you would be will be pay. Just my two nickels. Who the hell cares what I say anyways my wife sure doesn't. Just a joke!!! But true!!!!

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Posted By: PASJD

I would nominate what Barry just said so eloquently.

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Posted By: jay behrens

OK, enough of this "I'm a poor, low income collector" crap. Unless you are the resident 15 year old, or flipping burgers for a living like me, you are not poor. Poor is having a budget of $50 a month or less for vintage cards. So spare me the "I'm poor" speel. You aren't. Very few people on this board truly are.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Trevor--The difference is that one item is a card(or sheet of cards) and one item you can blow you nose on, wash, dry, and have it looking just as good as it did before. Just kidding--kinda.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Jay you make me laugh. I don't care what everyone says about you J/K You're just bitter because you don't collect silk. I know it sounds like a fetish but isn't N172 collecting one as well.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Isn't Sportscards Plus offering an uncut N172 sheet in their upcoming auction??

Or is it a poster?

I can't remember.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I can have the image transferred to a T-shirt. Forget silks, what about cottons?

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Posted By: John

“I have never met such a person (a handful of dealers aside) in 25 years in the hobby.”

JimB

My Dentist buys cards and memorabilia and other antiques for wall hangers. He gets a larger right off for office decorations. Buys items purely for tax reasons. Does he like baseball sure, does he know anything about baseball cards nope. In fact the first day I met him I struck up the conversation about cards. He said yeah-there cool the more expensive the better and explained his tax deal. Seeing as his 58 Topps uncut sheet is hanging over a spit sink I don’t think he’s what we would call a true collector.

I’m not jealous of any collector or collections. Do I dream about having a collection larger than what I have sure. But at the end of the day, dreaming is the one thing that never goes up in price. Dreaming is what kept me searching attics and antique joints as a kid. I’m very lucky to have what I have and enjoy each and every card I own like it was a PSA 10 one-of-a-kind item. That’s what a collector is.

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Posted By: J Levine

Jay,
You are right I am not poor...I own a condo (well, the bank owns nearly all of it--I just live there), I own a car (granted a '96 Chevy Cavalier w/ over 160,000 miles) and a computer (5 year old Dell). My $50 budget comes from saving nearly every penny and understanding that my hobby is important to me. I weigh every purchase, every month. I bid often but rarely win. I skip movies or large meals out to save money. Every extra dime I get goes to the condo or to the hobby (or to the occasional girlfriend--just broke up again).

I am a teacher in a job that demands 50-60 hour work weeks where I get paid only for 40 of those hours. I have summers off but I work to make ends meet. Do I want all your sympathy, nope...do I want a fair shot at cards, yes. I just wanted people to understand that on a limited budget, this hobby can be fun. I rarely feel jealous of them because I love my house, my car, my job, my computer and my hobby.

What I want is respect...what kills me is when I am offered something for what I think is a resonable price, I agree, and then some guy standing next to me at the show offers double (yes, this has happened). I am nearly always on the losing end of this. Paul, a dealer friend (Trevor and Adam W. know him as well), once offered something to me, I had wallet in hand and a guy offered almost double. Paul, handed me the card, took my money, and turned back to the guy and just said, "make Josh an offer, he owns it now." One of the classiest things I have seen in the hobby.

"Clunk" (me hopping off current soapbox)

-Joshua

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Richard,

Holly Sh*t. I can't stop laughing. Sign me up for ten!!! As long as you have the background shot of Anson in Uni!!!

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Josh,
I agree Paul one of the good guys. I set up next to every show and seen him give cards to little kids for free and always help the little guy out.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

I think there is an important distinction pre-war and post-war. Post war I think there is little doubt that most of the top sets are on the psa registry. I would even venture that this is true with the most popular pre-war sets such as 33 and 34 Goudey, Diamond Stars, 41 Play Ball, 33 Goudey Sport Kings and T206.

No doubt there are some outstanding vintage collections pre-war which are not graded.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I think Jim makes an excellent point. Most post war sets, putting money aside for a second, are relatively easy to complete. If a collector wants a challenge, and after all isn't the joy of collecting the hunt, then the only challenge is in putting together a high grade set. This leads into the registry set mentality. Many pre war sets are extremely difficult to complete. For those sets there is no need to construct additional hurdles to differentiate amongst collections; the distance along the path to completion is the mark on the measuring stick. There are certainly exceptions to this, eg T206, but I think for the most part that the generalization is true. That is one of the reasons, for example, that none of the major Old Judge collections are slabbed/registered.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

And the proof is in the bidding, so to speak. As you go up the scale in age and rarity on card sets, the degree of damage to the card that bidders will nevertheless actively pursue goes up as well. When it comes to rare poses, rare backs, and rare issues, set builders will take whatever they can find and will pay quite handsomely for it too.

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Posted By: Richard Lloyd

Just to be a little Specific... Many post war regional cards and regional food card sets are near if not impossible to find and in many cases harder to find then pre war cards.. Now, if you
meant Goudey style cards I would agree..
Best
Dick

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Dick--I agree with what you are saying. That is why I put "most" post war sets.

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Posted By: Richard Lloyd

Thanks...I understand...
Best
Dick

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Regarding the quality of the goudey, and other sets that are out there. I specifically remember being amongst sellers of this material in the seventies, and being hesitant to buy. But there is little uncertainty in my recollection regarding the shoeboxes of cards which these entrepreneurs were offering at silly prices, for cards which were of phenominal grade, but lesser than what they kept.

Wassat that mean? I think that there is serious stuff tucked away.

Lets hear some other impressions from the '70s and before

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

I agree with Jay Behrens! VERY WELL said, Mr. Behrens. In other words, I do not feel sorry for people "less fortunate" than myself. Life is what you make of it, and people CHOOSE to live the lifestyles' they live

Best regards,

Adam J. Moraine