Speaking of Mick...

[jgmp123]

I just picked this piece up from a local card shop...Any thoughts?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

I just picked this piece up from a local card shop...Any thoughts?

Yes. Return it and get your money back.

[jgmp123]

Ha!
Chris - That's what I was afraid of...I told the guy I would have it looked at...He was dead set on me sending it off for authentication...I told him, you pay for it and i'll send it off!

[JimStinson]

My guess is that it was not expensive , use some mineral spirits and remove the signature and keep it ITS A GREAT PHOTO OF THE MICK !

[jgmp123]

Jim,

Will the mineral spirits damage the photo at all?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Jim brings up a great point. How much did you pay for it?

[jgmp123]

$50 and a pretty nice 1974 Topps Clemente...he's a good guy and I have known him for years...the big win here is that he will gladly refund my money and will pull the Mick once I show him this feedback.

Thanks again guys!

[thetruthisoutthere]

Why would a local card dealer and good guy, sell you an authentic Mickey Mantle autographed photo (and Clemente) for only $50.00?

I find it difficult to believe that your local good guy card dealer, would let go of a authentic Mickey Mantle signed photo (and a Clemente card) for only $50.00.

[yanks12025]

I think he meant he paid $50 plus a clemente card.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I think he meant he paid $50 plus a clemente card.

Gotcha, Brock. Thank you for pointing that out.

I still find it difficult to believe the local card dealer would sell an authentic Mantle signed photo for only $50.00 and a 1974 Clemente.

I think he was looking to dump it.

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Why would a local card dealer and good guy, sell you an authentic Mickey Mantle autographed photo (and Clemente) for only $50.00?

I find it difficult to believe that your local good guy card dealer, would let go of a authentic Mickey Mantle signed photo (and a Clemente card) for only $50.00.

Chris,

Read the post. No reason to go into attack mode.

It was the card and $50. And like I said, a good guy that knew he didn't get it in person and didn't have paperwork on the autograph (in case you still think the Clemene card and $50 is too low)

He may have been looking to dump it, but he's giving me my money back...All I said is that he is a good guy, not like the dude is family.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

Chris,

Read the post. No reason to go into attack mode.

It was the card and $50. And like I said, a good guy that knew he didn't get it in person and didn't have paperwork on the autograph (in case you still think the Clemene card and $50 is too low)

Sorry, James, but I tell it like I feel it.

[jgmp123]

No hard feelings...I am planning on getting the Clemente and money back tomorrow. I am going to offer him a lower amount for the photo only after I show him this forum and go with Jim's idea....do you know if Mineral Spirits would damage the photo?

I gain a nice photo and get this dud off the streets...

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

No hard feelings...I am planning on getting the Clemente and money back tomorrow. I am going to offer him a lower amount for the photo only after I show him this forum and go with Jim's idea....do you know if Mineral Spirits would damage the photo?

I gain a nice photo and get this dud off the streets...

No need to mess around with mineral spirits. If it is Sharpie on a glossy photo, a white art eraser such as Staedtler or Pentel Clic Eraser will take it right off with no damage to the photo.

[yanks12025]

Also why'd topps make a Clemente card two years after he died?

[jgmp123]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Also why'd topps make a Clemente card two years after he died?

Brock,

My bad..it was the 1973 Topps...#50

[Clark7781]

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud as I cherish the people's opinion to voiced such in this thread. (Chris, loved your Youtube videos and respect your opinions.)

But in the context of the initial posters' post, the opinion of this borad would dictate if he keeps the autographed photo or not.

I know that if certain people say "no good" I read it as gospel. Chris, you are one of them. But Mr. I-don't-know-anyone-one-on-net54, they might need some more specifics.

So, to help our fellow forumite, from our experts, can you cite specifics why this autograph is no bueno...

Personally, I have a few thoughts as I would be hesitant, so please share yours.

[Mr. Zipper]

This is a textbook, mass produced forgery style sold in great quantity through B&J Collectibles among others. It has slowness throughout and a drawn look. Once your eye keys in on the look of these, they stick out like a sore thumb.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Clark7781

I But Mr. I-don't-know-anyone-one-on-net54, they might need some more specifics.

So, to help our fellow forumite, from our experts, can you cite specifics why this autograph is no bueno...

Personally, I have a few thoughts as I would be hesitant, so please share yours.

Clark,
Many on the board often do not share specifics publicly.
The reason is that crooks read these boards and many don't want to give them any help improving their technique by showing them the keys to the sigs.
Many on here will be more willing to share via PM.

For myself, one of the big things with Mantle, and most other signatures, is flow. Often forgeries have a drawn appearance as opposed to free flowing signature.
Just my 2c.
Best,
Mark

[travrosty]

they are not reading these boards looking for tips... that's a myth.

[Clark7781]

Mark, you are 100% correct.

I am an avid collector of autographs. I have a nice sized collection and my focus over the years is IP 'graphs. In my younger years (1980s) I attended a good number of shows in Alantic City, where big names attended. I remember waiting in line with my father for Mickey Mantle. I didn't than know how great he was, other than my dad saying, "Quit bitching; we're waiting in this line..."

I remember they grey haired man signing the ball for us; I didn't appreciate this event until later in life: I met the great Mickey Mantle!

Over the years, as I educated myself on autographs, I learned about the little nuances of the signers techniques. Mantle has a few, which are stand outs if you know what you are looking for.

I am no expert, but am just trying to help a fellow forumite... Please don't take what I write anything more than that.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Clark7781

I don't mean to be a stick in the mud as I cherish the people's opinion to voiced such in this thread. (Chris, loved your Youtube videos and respect your opinions.)

But in the context of the initial posters' post, the opinion of this borad would dictate if he keeps the autographed photo or not.

I know that if certain people say "no good" I read it as gospel. Chris, you are one of them. But Mr. I-don't-know-anyone-one-on-net54, they might need some more specifics.

So, to help our fellow forumite, from our experts, can you cite specifics why this autograph is no bueno...

Personally, I have a few thoughts as I would be hesitant, so please share yours.

Clark, I appreciate the nice comments.

I cannot, of course, speak for anyone else, but to learn autographs is to train your eyes. It really isn't as simple as this is wrong and that is wrong. I can reference formation, slant, etc., and it's not going to be understood by the casual autograph buyer.

It takes time to train your eyes. A lot of time. Forgeries are meant to have the appearance of looking authentic. And it works, because the majority of people who purchase autographs don't know anything about the autographs they are buying.

I would also like to throw in a personal analogy. I was always very good in math, and when I was in 6th grade, they took about dozen of us and threw us in a Geometry class. At the time I was already taking Algebra II in 6th grade, but when I started the Geometry class I just could not figure this thing out. I just didn't get it. Then all-of-a-sudden, three weeks into the Geometry class, it clicked.

With autographs your trained eyes will all-of-a-sudden click. But you have to keep at it. It's not a once-a-week thing.

Look at a 1963 circa Mantle autograph and compare it to a 1990 circa Mantle autograph. The same characteristics are there in both autographs, but only the trained eye will see it.

I hope this helps a little.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Clark, I appreciate the nice comments.

I cannot, of course, speak for anyone else, but to learn autographs is to train your eyes. It really isn't as simple as this is wrong and that is wrong. I can reference formation, slant, etc., and it's not going to be understood by the casual autograph buyer.

It takes time to train your eyes. A lot of time. Forgeries are meant to have the appearance of looking authentic. And it works, because the majority of people who purchase autographs don't know anything about the autographs they are buying.

I would also like to throw in a personal analogy. I was always very good in math, and when I was in 6th grade, they took about dozen of us and threw us in a Geometry class. At the time I was already taking Algebra II in 6th grade, but when I started the Geometry class I just could not figure this thing out. I just didn't get it. Then all-of-a-sudden, three weeks into the Geometry class, it clicked.

With autographs your trained eyes will all-of-a-sudden click. But you have to keep at it. It's not a once-a-week thing.

Look at a 1963 circa Mantle autograph and compare it to a 1990 circa Mantle autograph. The same characteristics are there in both autographs, but only the trained eye will see it.

I hope this helps a little.

I love this response... so very very true.

[JimStinson]

DITTO ! On the above and very well put Christopher ! I've tried to explain it to people and they don't get it , its a GUT thing most of the time and comes from handling and looking at autographs day in and day out for many many years. You can't TEACH it ! And you can't learn it out of a book.
REMEMBER THIS ! counterfeit artists can FREE HAND TWENTY DOLLAR BILLS. If that can be done someone can certainly replicate a Mickey Mantle or Lou Gehrig to LOOK exactly the way its supposed to look. In determining authenticity a person with some experience in this arena is usually looking at MORE than just the "slant and stroke, formation etc"
____________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

[Lordstan]

Chris,
That is a great response.
Very well put and I agree fully with your description.
Best,
Mark

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they are not reading these boards looking for tips... that's a myth.

and I don't care if they do anyway. I always will try and spell it out for new collectors whenever I can. In this instance, there is not really much to discuss.

You just need to keep working and eventually, you can see these typical forgeries from a mile away.

Also, for the record, your just not going to pick up a Mantle signed photo for $50.00. That's your first tip that you are probably buying a forgery, trying to get a deal or something for nothing. No one is selling legitimate Mantle's for 50.00. If you want an authentic one. Plan on paying a minimum of $125-300, depending on the pose and the cert offered. $125 for No cert & up to $300+ for JSA, PSA and Upperdeck. Good Luck

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

DITTO ! On the above and very well put Christopher ! I've tried to explain it to people and they don't get it , its a GUT thing most of the time and comes from handling and looking at autographs day in and day out for many many years. You can't TEACH it ! And you can't learn it out of a book.
REMEMBER THIS ! counterfeit artists can FREE HAND TWENTY DOLLAR BILLS. If that can be done someone can certainly replicate a Mickey Mantle or Lou Gehrig to LOOK exactly the way its supposed to look. In determining authenticity a person with some experience in this arena is usually looking at MORE than just the "slant and stroke, formation etc"
____________________________
Vintage autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

Jim, Mark and Ben, your comments are much appreciated.

Jim, your comment is right on the money.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

they are not reading these boards looking for tips... that's a myth.

This is NOT a personal attack at all but I think you are wrong. Actually Travis, I kind of like you. You have great spirit. I have very first hand knowledge of many card doctors and thieves reading this board.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Please read the below new thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...46#post1020346

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is NOT a personal attack at all but I think you are wrong. Actually Travis, I kind of like you. You have great spirit. I have very first hand knowledge of many card doctors and thieves reading this board.

In my opinion, it's dangerously naive to think forgers -- at least the good ones -- aren't always looking to perfect their craft.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show otherwise. After the Charlton Heston secretarial study was released on Autograph News Live, guess what? The forgers stopped copying the secretarial style and started copying the authentic style. Did that just happen by coincidence?

On CollectSpace a few posters spilled the beans on subtle traits they look for in Neil Armstrong autographs. Guess what? Within months we started seeing fakes with those same traits that never appeared before.

The forger who did all the Burczyk Mantle forgeries has altered his Mantle in the past few months. Did he do that for no reason or maybe because he was reading some "feedback" on his style here or elsewhere?

More than once Travis has espoused an attitude that forgers operate in an isolated silo scribbling lousy fakes that are all easily detected. This is simply not true.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

In my opinion, it's dangerously naive to think forgers -- at least the good ones -- aren't always looking to perfect their craft.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to show otherwise. After the Charlton Heston secretarial study was released on Autograph News Live, guess what? The forgers stopped copying the secretarial style and started copying the authentic style. Did that just happen by coincidence?

On CollectSpace a few posters spilled the beans on subtle traits they look for in Neil Armstrong autographs. Guess what? Within months we started seeing fakes with those same traits that never appeared before.

The forger who did all the Burczyk Mantle forgeries has altered his Mantle in the past few months. Did he do that for no reason or maybe because he was reading some "feedback" on his style here or elsewhere?

More than once Travis has espoused an attitude that forgers operate in an isolated silo scribbling lousy fakes that are all easily detected. This is simply not true.

Well written, Mr. Zipper and right on the money.

It was about a month ago when we noticed the source of the Burczyk certed Mantle forgeries changed his Mantle forgeries. The irony being, they are more horrific than the original Mantle forgeries he produced.

The change happened due to sites like Net54 and AML.

[Clark7781]

Chris,

Thank you for not taking any offense to my post. I have followed your opinions avidly for a long time. Your opinion carries weight with me, so I thank you for all that you have done for the hobby.

I truly love this community. Helping each other out when help is asked for. You are all true gentleman and gentlemwomen.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Clark7781

Chris,

Thank you for not taking any offense to my post. I have followed your opinions avidly for a long time. Your opinion carries weight with me, so I thank you for all that you have done for the hobby.

I truly love this community. Helping each other out when help is asked for. You are all true gentleman and gentlemwomen.

Clark, your post was not offensive at all. I appreciate the opportunity to reply to your comment.

When I first started doing my YouTube videos back in October 2008, I always made it clear that my videos and blogs were never meant to be educational. I simply wanted to expose the sellers of forgeries. I have never profited a dime from the hobby. I am not a dealer. Sellers of forgeries need to be exposed. It cannot be tolerated.