T206 Doyle N.Y.

[usernamealreadytaken]

Is the N.Y. version rare in reality? I know it is priced as such but is it really substantially scarcer than other subjects? Recall a rumor that someone hoarded these to try altering into Nat'l versions. Any insight?

[bbcard1]

For years, a major hobby dealer advertised in SCD buying all Doyle T206s. As there are several poses of Larry as well as Slow Joe, and one could argue Larry is a borderline HOFer, no one really thought all that much about it... I mean it was just a classified. I don't recall any reports of an attempt to alter it...and I am not sure he ever came across another Slow Joe NY Nat'l (he played for the AL club) or if he did it was just a couple out of hundreds of cards issued. It is probably a legit variation, but to be honest, doesn't seem all that interesting to me in the context of the great set.

Of course the assumption is that the company got Joe and Larry mixed up.

here's a link to some discussion.
http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_3.html

[tedzan]

To date, only 8 confirmed error cards of Joe Doyle (N. Y. Nat'l) exist. And, this card is only found with a PIEDMONT 350
back.
Beware, there are several fakes out there, of which some are Graded.







The regular T206 Joe Doyle card is quite difficult to find. It is mainly found with PIEDMONT 350 & SWEET CAPORAL 350
backs. In lesser quantities, this card is found with OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and TOLSTOI backs. And, is seldom found
with EPDG and SOVEREIGN 350 backs.


TED Z

[usernamealreadytaken]

To clarify, I am seeking the numbers on the "N.Y." version NOT the impossible "Nat'l." I just want to see how the Board feels on its rarity. Is it manufactured or are there really fewer out there than others? (If so, why?) Thanks!

[bbsports]

The story I heard years ago was that a counterfeiting ring in Florida was caught printing the words "Natl" on the front of Joe Doyle's cards. The cards were later taken away and destroyed. The pop reports on this card overall are lower than most common T206 cards, especially in grades 5 & higher.

[bbcard1]

if only because there was a concentrated effort to buy up Doyles over years, I could see Joe becoming more scarce. The fact that there were three Larry variations would probably moderate the effect.

[tedzan]

Two factors are responsible for this card being considerably less available than your average T206 common........

(1) In the early 1980's, Larry Fritsch acquired 100's (if not 1000's) of these Doyle's in search for another Joe Doyle
error card. Eventually, some of these got back in circulation, but many of them did not.

(2) In the late 1980's 100's of these cards were acquired by the scam artists trying to alter them by adding "Nat'l"
to their caption. In this process many of them were destroyed. And, others were confiscated.

Therefore, these events have unquestionably made this "common" T206 card very tough to find. Typical sale prices
reflect this, as they range from $200 - $800 for Vg to Ex cards. And, even higher prices for Joe Doyle's with an EPDG
or a SOVEREIGN 350 back.

If you are looking for actual numbers....Scot Reader has estimated that there are approx. 3000 cards in circulation
of each common T206 subject. My educated guess is that there are no more than 800 Joe Doyle cards in circulation.


TED Z

[T206Collector]

Just posted in the B/S/T, I have a Doyle with Sovereign 350 back that I would be willing to trade for another Doyle with a common back.

Email me at SignedT206@gmail.com if you're interested in such a trade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How many fakes are graded and have not been bought back?

[hunterdutchess]

I tried to win this lot on ha.com that had a t206 Doyle that was graded A but looked beautiful along with the other trimmed cards. I think I bid four or five times but stopped at $350. Do you think the winner overpaid or should I have gone higher?


http://sports.ha.com/common/view_ite...9&src=pr#Photo

[Steve D]

I was finally able to pick up an undergraded (IMHO) PSA 3 Joe Doyle, N.Y. on ebay earlier this month for just under $200. It's a Sweet Caporal 350 back.

Steve

[sreader3]

A couple of corrections/observations respecting the "N.Y." version of Slow Joe:

1. The couterfeiter who bought all of the Slow Joes from Larry Fritsch lived in Flint, Michigan (not Florida).

2. Another reason for the relative scarcity of Slow Joe is that his subject was shortprinted in the 350 series--along with Nichols, Rhoades (Right Arm Extended), Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Smith (Chicago White Cap). The reason we know his subject was shortprinted is that, as Ted discovered, it is available with the apple green Sovereign 350 back that is characteristic of the 350/460 regular print subject group, not the forest green Sovereign 350 back that is characteristic of the 350-only subject group. In other words, Slow Joe was SUPPOSED to be a 350/460 regular print subject, but was removed from production before the commencement of the 460 series portion of the print run for that subject group. Since there are roughly 2/3 as many cards of a typical 350/460 RP subject as a 350-only subject WITH 350 SERIES BACKS, Slow Joe can be expected to be about 1/3 more difficult than a typical 350-only subject, BEFORE accounting for the cards destroyed in counterfeiting scams.

Scot

[tedzan]

Regarding the Joe Doyle error card and this question......" How many fakes are graded and have not been bought back? "

My understaning is that there are several. The most notorious graded fake Doyle error card is one with a Polar Bear back.
When the owner of this fake Doyle was apprised of it, it is reported that he simply shrugged it off.


TED Z

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding the Joe Doyle error card and this question......" How many fakes are graded and have not been bought back? "

My understaning is that there are several. The most notorious graded fake Doyle error card is one with a Polar Bear back.
When the owner of this fake Doyle was apprised of it, it is reported that he simply shrugged it off.


TED Z

Maybe he likes the label.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Regarding the Joe Doyle error card and this question......" How many fakes are graded and have not been bought back? "

My understaning is that there are several. The most notorious graded fake Doyle error card is one with a Polar Bear back.
When the owner of this fake Doyle was apprised of it, it is reported that he simply shrugged it off.


TED Z

Ted, that's not the one KO showed to the taxi driver was it?

Steve

[trobba]

Hi Ted,

I was wondering what you based the difficulty of backs for the Doyle card on. Is it based on pop reports or personal research? Just wondering, as I was surprised by the two you mentioned as being the toughest.

I only have access to SGC pop reports and many look similar as far as scarcity.

thanks - Rob

[tedzan]

The fake Doyle that you are referring to was graded by SGC.

The fake Doyle with the Polar Bear back that I referred to in the above post was graded by PSA.

TED Z

[tedzan]

Rob

Regarding your......" Hi Ted,
I was wondering what you based the difficulty of backs for the Doyle card on. Is it based on pop reports or
personal research? "

Several factors indicate to me that the normal T206 Joe Doyle with an EPDG back, or a Sovereign 350 back
(or a Tolstoi back) are considerable tougher than the other 4 backs this card is found with. They are my per-
sonal experience in putting together an all-Sovereign set, collecting EPDG cards, and a survey I conducted
in 2007 regarding the Printer's (remnant) Mark that exists on approx. 12 % of the Joe Doyle card. Here's the
link to that thread........

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...slow+joe+doyle


The final results of that survey are......T206 Joe Doyle with/or without the Printer's Mark......9/30/2007


T-brand..............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........7.........29

Sweet Cap 350......4.........41

Polar Bear.............2.........17

Old Mill.................1..........7

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Sovereign 350........0...........2

EPDG....................0...........1
____________________________

Totals.................14..........98



Excellent question, Rob.

TED Z