T205 Theory Info for Backs

[T205 GB]

Here is some research I had done a few yrs back and had it posted to the board at one point several yrs ago but deleted it. Instead of adding to the end of Ted Z thread I am posting it on its own. I am sure you will see it is very close to what TedZ has and what we have discussed in the past on the board and shows.


 T205 Hindu Confirmed and Possibles

I have been researching this set for what seems yrs now. I was leaning towards a theory about the Hindus a while back but needed a few more back confirmations to make the connection factual. Hindus were printed at the 649 Fact, as well as the Hassan 649 back. After a lot of research I noticed that NO Hindu players were found with Hassan Backs even though they were printed in the same factory as each other. I then realized there was another neat thing that all Hindus have the SC black backs only. So if it has a Hassan back then there will be NO Hindu or SC Black back from either factory. None of the AB, BL, Cycle, Drum, or Pied 42 cards can be found with the SC black back from either factory either, but can have SC red fact 25.

These may have not been printed, but they meet all the criteria to be a Hindu print, and there is a list of Confirmed backs below. Also you will see a few Variations listed. I believe the 2 variations listed are the correct card for the back to fall on. This is due the card listed as being the primary card containing the SC Blacks from both factories and the other variation being a type of misprint or correction later on.

Possible
1. Abbaticchio
2. Archer
3. Ball
4. Birmingham
5. Bransfield
6.
7. Daubert
8. Doughtery-Red Sox Emblem
9. Duffy
10. Ford Black Cap
11. Fromme
12. Goode
13. Gray-No Stats
14. Griffith
15. Groom
16. Hoffman
17. Hummel
18. Jennings
19. Killian
20. LaPorte
21. Lang
22. Livingston
23. Lord
24. Lush
25. Maddox
26. McElveen
27. McIntyre
28. McLean
29. Mitchell
30. Moriarity
31. Mullin
32. Rucker
33. Schmidt
34. Scott
35. Stahl
36. Thomas
37. Young

Confirmed
1. Ames
2. Bailey
3. Bescher
Ciotte
4. Devore
5. Dickson
6. Egan
7. Engle
8. Gaspar
9. Jacklitsch
10. Johnson
11. Kling
12. Leifield-A on Front
13. Lennox
14. Magee
15. McBride
16. Pfiester
17. Sharpe
18. Simmons
19. Stanage

T205 Minor League Replacements

While researching another group of cards I noticed a pattern emerge from a group of cards. After going through the entire list it became clear that I may have found the cards that gave up their spots for the ML's in the set. It has been long theorized that the SP's in the set were the sacrifice for the ML's and I had also thought this to be the truth. The following cards I believe are part of a group that were printed together:
1. Barger Full B
2. Beck
3. Bender
4. Bresnahan Mouth Closed
5. Byrne
6. Camnitz
7. Cobb
8. Kroh
9. Doyle
10. Hauser
11. Konetchy
12. Mattern
13. Merkle
14. Oakes
15. Phillippe
16. Schulte
17. Schekard
18. Smith
19. Street
20. Titus
21. Walace No Cap (Missing AB Green)**
22. Wilson

Of these the following cards are found without Hassan Fact 649 and have a lesser amount of PB backs printed for them and are the cards I believe to have been replaced by the ML's
1. Barger Full B
2. Bender
3. Bresnahan Mouth Closed
4. Camnitz
5. Cobb
6. Kroh
7. Oldring
8. Smith
9. Street
10. Titus
11. Wallace No Cap**
12. Wilson



**The Wallace No Cap is the only card in the set that fits the pattern minus one card. It is not out of the question to think that the Wallace could be found with an AB back.


T205 True SP's and Variation's

I wanted to do an actual break down of the set to separate the SP's and variations based on numbers and not opinions.

I have found that all cards in the set can be found with 5 backs or more except the following cards. These cards can only be found with 3 backs or less with one of the backs being very scare in the printing of them. I have included the Minor Leaguers into this area due to print run.


The first group are Minor League players. These cards are found with only Hassan Fact. 649 and Polar Bear Fact. 6 backs. The PB backs are the scarcer of the two and rarely commands much higher than normal prices. This may be caused by the fact the cards are already SP and obtaining them in any condition above VG is difficult on a normal basis. These cards are available regularly in Auth-VG for decent prices.
1. Adkins
2. Batch
3. Cady
4. J. Collins
5. Dunn
6. Frick
7. Hanford
8. Lee
9. McAllister
10. Merrit
11. Nee
12. Phelan

The second group are cards found with only 3 backs and are the remaining true SP's in the set. Theses cards can only be found with Hassan Fact. 30, Piedmont Fact. 25, and Cycle Fact. 25 backs(unless stated). The Cycle backs are rarely seen on these cards and should command much higher than normal prices for these cards.

1. Bresnahan Mouth Open
2. Chase Left Ear
3. Dahlen
4. Donahue
5. Graham Cubs
6. Grant
7. Harmon Left Ear
8. Joss
9. Karger
10. Kleinow
11. Raymond
12. Shean Cubs (Hassan and PB)
13. Suggs
14. Turner
15. Wagner
16. Wilhelm



The Variations in the set are listed as print variations and different fronts. There seems to be controversy as to what defines a variation. As seen in the T206 set, all it takes is a simple quotation mark, period, letter, logo, ect., ect., to create a variation and possibly extreme pricing. The new master list created by Ron Korn@cki and many board members has shed light to many about some lesser know variations and seems to have created a new found interest to some collectors. This is great news considering the T205 set, hailed by some as the most beautiful set ever created, has always been in the shadows of the Monster. I have listed the variations according to scarcity under their names. I can say that there are several cards in the T205 set that are slotted incorrectly according to my research compared to guides, so I have done the best I can in listing them correctly and included back counts at the end. Please remember as more cards are confirmed for Miller the numbers will change.

Hoblitzell:
No Stats (1)
No Cin name correct (2)
No Cin name incorrect (1)
Cin after 1908 (9)

Crandall:
T not crossed (2)
T crossed (9)

Latham:
Period before A (HLC backed only, also faint upside down W present on some) (1)
W.A. Latham (1)
A.Latham (11)

Leifield:
AP on front (4)
A on front (5)

Wallace:
2 Lines 1910 (3)
1 Line 1910 (4)


Doc White:
No/Partial Quotes (1) Both seem to be of equal amounts so far so neither is scarcer.
Quotes (4)

Mathewson:
1 Loss (1)
11 Loss (8)

Miller:
B (2)
D over B (2)
D (4)

Moran:
Stray line (2)
No Line (11)

Doughtery:
White Sox (4)
Red Sox (4)

Collins:
Yellow Elephant (1)
White Elephant (5)

Chase:
No Border on Shirt (5)
Border on Shirt (8)

Grey:
Stats (2)
No Stats (5)

Wilhelm:
Suffered (2)
Suffe ed (1)


The cards like Chase Left Ear, Harmon Left Ear, Barger Partial B, Graham Cubs, Graham Black Sig, Graham Blue Sig, Shean Cubs, Ford White cap and Black cap(separate runs due to the black cap being available for Hindu, White cap available for a Drum back), Wiltse Right Ear, Bresnahan Open Mouth are cards of their own. Those cards are not Variations in the set but another card printed uniquely and should be listed as such. Where cards found above are actual errors created during the printing process, and were possibly corrected.

All the info posted is based on my information I have gathered over the yrs. If I don't have the scan or marked down on my sheet then I would need to see proof of the cards existence to prove otherwise. There are several cards listed above that have discrepancies when compared to the Master List. I do not think the cards in question on the master list are correct and may have been typos. Pop reports, pics, auctions, and my list compile the data I have for the last 5-6 yrs. I would like to see any back scans you may have to help confirm new cards(Such as Harmon Left Ear PB).


T205: Where do they belong

I know there has been some discussion in regard to my SP list. Some say that other cards in the set should be considered SP's also because of supposed short print runs even though they are found with a few more backs making the print run possibly much larger. I believe this is due to the false pretense of these cards being SP's that they were hoarded by collectors and thus increased the values and scarcity. If in-fact that the list I made (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=160290) as well as the other cards are SP's then there are several more cards in the set that are the same yet are over looked. So if we include these other select few "Original SP" cards to the SP list then we have to include the others. I think the reason these cards have been overlooked is because they are less popular players than the "OSP's".

Here is a list of the cards with some of them being so called SP's(I don't agree JMO) that fit the bill of SP's if we include the originals.

The first group are missing Hassan 649 and AB Green backs, but are found with Pied 42 backs making it possible to be found with an AB Green back.
1. Barger Partial B
2. Collins Mouth Open
3. Fisher
4. Ford White Cap
5. Rowan
6. Scanlan
7. Sweeney
8. Vaughn
9. Walsh
10. K. White

The second group I could lean towards actually including to the SP list since they are not found with any link that would allow them to have additional backs towards the Hindu or Drum side.
1. Krause
2. MCConnell
3. Schaefer
4. Speaker
5. Tannehill
6. Wallace White Cap
7. Doc White

[asoriano]

Can confirm another Collins Yellow Elephant (Piedmont, Factory 25)

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Here is some research I had done a few yrs back and had it posted to the board at one point several yrs ago but deleted it. Instead of adding to the end of Ted Z thread I am posting it on its own. I am sure you will see it is very close to what TedZ has and what we have discussed in the past on the board and shows.


 T205 Hindu Confirmed and Possibles

I have been researching this set for what seems yrs now. I was leaning towards a theory about the Hindus a while back but needed a few more back confirmations to make the connection factual. Hindus were printed at the 649 Fact, as well as the Hassan 649 back. After a lot of research I noticed that NO Hindu players were found with Hassan Backs even though they were printed in the same factory as each other. I then realized there was another neat thing that all Hindus have the SC black backs only. So if it has a Hassan back then there will be NO Hindu or SC Black back from either factory. None of the AB, BL, Cycle, Drum, or Pied 42 cards can be found with the SC black back from either factory either, but can have SC red fact 25.

These may have not been printed, but they meet all the criteria to be a Hindu print, and there is a list of Confirmed backs below. Also you will see a few Variations listed. I believe the 2 variations listed are the correct card for the back to fall on. This is due the card listed as being the primary card containing the SC Blacks from both factories and the other variation being a type of misprint or correction later on.

Possible
1. Abbaticchio
2. Archer
3. Ball
4. Birmingham
5. Bransfield
6. Ciotte
7. Daubert
8. Doughtery-Red Sox Emblem
9. Duffy
10. Ford Black Cap
11. Fromme
12. Goode
13. Gray-No Stats
14. Griffith
15. Groom
16. Hoffman
17. Hummel
18. Jennings
19. Killian
20. LaPorte
21. Lang
22. Livingston
23. Lord
24. Lush
25. Maddox
26. McElveen
27. McIntyre
28. McLean
29. Mitchell
30. Moriarity
31. Mullin
32. Rucker
33. Schmidt
34. Scott
35. Stahl
36. Thomas
37. Young

Confirmed
1. Ames
2. Bailey
3. Bescher
4. Devore
5. Dickson
6. Egan
7. Engle
8. Gaspar
9. Jacklitsch
10. Johnson
11. Kling
12. Leifield-A on Front
13. Lennox
14. Magee
15. McBride
16. Pfiester
17. Sharpe
18. Simmons
19. Stanage

T205 Minor League Replacements

While researching another group of cards I noticed a pattern emerge from a group of cards. After going through the entire list it became clear that I may have found the cards that gave up their spots for the ML's in the set. It has been long theorized that the SP's in the set were the sacrifice for the ML's and I had also thought this to be the truth. The following cards I believe are part of a group that were printed together:
1. Barger Full B
2. Beck
3. Bender
4. Bresnahan Mouth Closed
5. Byrne
6. Camnitz
7. Cobb
8. Kroh
9. Doyle
10. Hauser
11. Konetchy
12. Mattern
13. Merkle
14. Oakes
15. Phillippe
16. Schulte
17. Schekard
18. Smith
19. Street
20. Titus
21. Walace No Cap (Missing AB Green)**
22. Wilson

Of these the following cards are found without Hassan Fact 649 and have a lesser amount of PB backs printed for them and are the cards I believe to have been replaced by the ML's
1. Barger Full B
2. Bender
3. Bresnahan Mouth Closed
4. Camnitz
5. Cobb
6. Kroh
7. Oldring
8. Smith
9. Street
10. Titus
11. Wallace No Cap**
12. Wilson



**The Wallace No Cap is the only card in the set that fits the pattern minus one card. It is not out of the question to think that the Wallace could be found with an AB back.


T205 True SP's and Variation's

I wanted to do an actual break down of the set to separate the SP's and variations based on numbers and not opinions.

I have found that all cards in the set can be found with 5 backs or more except the following cards. These cards can only be found with 3 backs or less with one of the backs being very scare in the printing of them. I have included the Minor Leaguers into this area due to print run.


The first group are Minor League players. These cards are found with only Hassan Fact. 649 and Polar Bear Fact. 6 backs. The PB backs are the scarcer of the two and rarely commands much higher than normal prices. This may be caused by the fact the cards are already SP and obtaining them in any condition above VG is difficult on a normal basis. These cards are available regularly in Auth-VG for decent prices.
1. Adkins
2. Batch
3. Cady
4. J. Collins
5. Dunn
6. Frick
7. Hanford
8. Lee
9. McAllister
10. Merrit
11. Nee
12. Phelan

The second group are cards found with only 3 backs and are the remaining true SP's in the set. Theses cards can only be found with Hassan Fact. 30, Piedmont Fact. 25, and Cycle Fact. 25 backs(unless stated). The Cycle backs are rarely seen on these cards and should command much higher than normal prices for these cards.

1. Bresnahan Mouth Open
2. Chase Left Ear
3. Dahlen
4. Donahue
5. Graham Cubs
6. Grant
7. Harmon Left Ear
8. Joss
9. Karger
10. Kleinow
11. Raymond
12. Shean Cubs (Hassan and PB)
13. Suggs
14. Turner
15. Wagner
16. Wilhelm



The Variations in the set are listed as print variations and different fronts. There seems to be controversy as to what defines a variation. As seen in the T206 set, all it takes is a simple quotation mark, period, letter, logo, ect., ect., to create a variation and possibly extreme pricing. The new master list created by Ron Korn@cki and many board members has shed light to many about some lesser know variations and seems to have created a new found interest to some collectors. This is great news considering the T205 set, hailed by some as the most beautiful set ever created, has always been in the shadows of the Monster. I have listed the variations according to scarcity under their names. I can say that there are several cards in the T205 set that are slotted incorrectly according to my research compared to guides, so I have done the best I can in listing them correctly and included back counts at the end. Please remember as more cards are confirmed for Miller the numbers will change.

Hoblitzell:
No Stats (1)
No Cin name correct (2)
No Cin name incorrect (1)
Cin after 1908 (9)

Crandall:
T not crossed (2)
T crossed (9)

Latham:
Period before A (HLC backed only, also faint upside down W present on some) (1)
W.A. Latham (1)
A.Latham (11)

Leifield:
AP on front (4)
A on front (5)

Wallace:
2 Lines 1910 (3)
1 Line 1910 (4)


Doc White:
No/Partial Quotes (1) Both seem to be of equal amounts so far so neither is scarcer.
Quotes (4)

Mathewson:
1 Loss (1)
11 Loss (8)

Miller:
B (2)
D over B (2)
D (4)

Moran:
Stray line (2)
No Line (11)

Doughtery:
White Sox (4)
Red Sox (4)

Collins:
Yellow Elephant (1)
White Elephant (5)

Chase:
No Border on Shirt (5)
Border on Shirt (8)

Grey:
Stats (2)
No Stats (5)

Wilhelm:
Suffered (2)
Suffe ed (1)


The cards like Chase Left Ear, Harmon Left Ear, Barger Partial B, Graham Cubs, Graham Black Sig, Graham Blue Sig, Shean Cubs, Ford White cap and Black cap(separate runs due to the black cap being available for Hindu, White cap available for a Drum back), Wiltse Right Ear, Bresnahan Open Mouth are cards of their own. Those cards are not Variations in the set but another card printed uniquely and should be listed as such. Where cards found above are actual errors created during the printing process, and were possibly corrected.

All the info posted is based on my information I have gathered over the yrs. If I don't have the scan or marked down on my sheet then I would need to see proof of the cards existence to prove otherwise. There are several cards listed above that have discrepancies when compared to the Master List. I do not think the cards in question on the master list are correct and may have been typos. Pop reports, pics, auctions, and my list compile the data I have for the last 5-6 yrs. I would like to see any back scans you may have to help confirm new cards(Such as Harmon Left Ear PB).


T205: Where do they belong

I know there has been some discussion in regard to my SP list. Some say that other cards in the set should be considered SP's also because of supposed short print runs even though they are found with a few more backs making the print run possibly much larger. I believe this is due to the false pretense of these cards being SP's that they were hoarded by collectors and thus increased the values and scarcity. If in-fact that the list I made (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=160290) as well as the other cards are SP's then there are several more cards in the set that are the same yet are over looked. So if we include these other select few "Original SP" cards to the SP list then we have to include the others. I think the reason these cards have been overlooked is because they are less popular players than the "OSP's".

Here is a list of the cards with some of them being so called SP's(I don't agree JMO) that fit the bill of SP's if we include the originals.

The first group are missing Hassan 649 and AB Green backs, but are found with Pied 42 backs making it possible to be found with an AB Green back.
1. Barger Partial B
2. Collins Mouth Open
3. Fisher
4. Ford White Cap
5. Rowan
6. Scanlan
7. Sweeney
8. Vaughn
9. Walsh
10. K. White

The second group I could lean towards actually including to the SP list since they are not found with any link that would allow them to have additional backs towards the Hindu or Drum side.
1. Krause
2. MCConnell
3. Schaefer
4. Speaker
5. Tannehill
6. Wallace White Cap
7. Doc White

You don't list the Hoffman variations. There is the stripe in the background and the white/yellow second base.

[T205 GB]

Andy please post scans. Also this info is from several yrs back. Not close to "up to date" on counts

[T205 GB]

I do also have more I will post in regards to Pied 42, AB, and Drums. I also have found the Cycle connection to be hard to put in the ABCD grouping. As soon as I find all that I will post it

[h2oya311]

awesome research...thanks for sharing!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Andy please post scans. Also this info is from several yrs back. Not close to "up to date" on counts

A thread about the stripe hoffman with pics:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=192728



White and Yellow Second Base:

[EvilKing00]

great info, thanks for sharing!

[tedzan]

A lot of good stuff to take in here. Thanks for posting your research.

Regarding my "A-B-C-D" connection with respect to the CYCLE backs, my research shows that there are exactly 32 subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY (black) backs,
exactly 32 subjects with BROAD LEAF backs, and exactly 32 subjects with DRUM backs. They are listed here.

It just so happens that these same 32 subjects can also be found with the CYCLE backs. Furthermore, an additional number of T205 subjects were also printed with
CYCLE backs. So, I'm not saying that CYCLE backs are exclusive only to these 32 subjects. I think we both agree on this fact.


A - B - C - D connection




The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back.

Note that a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back will NOT be found with a DRUM back.


T205 AMERICAN BEAUTY (black), BROAD LEAF, DRUM checklist......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter



Take care good buddy,

TED Z
.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by asoriano

Can confirm another Collins Yellow Elephant (Piedmont, Factory 25)

Turner are they all Pied 25's. That's the only back confirmed unless I missed some.

[Leon]

Great research Andrew et al.....Thanks for sharing!!

[obcmac]

Great Research. Based on your earlier discussions, I also did a deep dive on the series analysis. Although a longer response is needed, my first point would be to suggest removing the Shean and Graham from the initial list of SP's. I think it's easier to think in "classes" rather than SP/non SPs...while total populations may be similar, the 14 other sps are virtually identical in terms of back appearance and populations, whereas Shean and Graham are clearly different, though total populations might be similar.

For the record, in my categorization, I have Shean in Graham in the same class as players like Austin, Bates and Becker...it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on including Shean and Graham with that group.

Mac

[Wite3]

I think much of this research is spot on...I would only advise that just because a card is found with only three (or four backs) like Krause does not necessarily mean they are single prints. We know there were multiple printing in the same factory for the same back (the Hoblitzell and Moran variations confirm that). We also know that the print runs for different backs (Hindu vs. Piedmont 25) were vastly different. Overall, I think the research is great and does seem to jive with much of what I have seen...but that Krause list is not an SP list. When you start hoarding the set like I have, Krause, Schafer, Wallace white cap, are all pretty common and easy to find.

Just my opinion.

Joshua

[peterb69]

Great stuff about my favorite set. Keep up the good work. I'm drooling over that yellow elephant Collins.

[T205 GB]

Ciotte was confirmed by a friend of mine this morning. That makes 20 total confirmed Hindus!!

[Bliggity]

Andrew - I noticed that you don't list the pink Walsh in your list of print variations. Do you consider that a true variation like the others, or more of a one-off error? I can't remember what the pop is on that card...has more than one been confirmed?

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Andrew - I noticed that you don't list the pink Walsh in your list of print variations. Do you consider that a true variation like the others, or more of a one-off error? I can't remember what the pop is on that card...has more than one been confirmed?

I believe Leon brought this one out a few years back. I think it's more of a anomaly than an actual variant. It's a nice card regardless and would buy if the price is right.