1948-1952 Bowman trimming problem??

[marvymelvin]

Hello people of the net54 world. I just have a few concerns I want some thoughts on. It seems that there are a bunch, and I mean a bunch of trimmed small format cards (48-52) coming up trimmed. I have purchased a few large lots of raw cards from these sets from local and not so local people, eBay, Craigslist, in person, etc. And every time I find a portion of them coming up short.

One seller I complained to gave me the explanation that collectors of all raw materials allow up to 1/8 of an inch short. He gave me a refund no problems, but suggested that I stick with PSA 5 or 6 if it bothered me so much.

Another sort of local guy advertises on CG showing stacks of these Bowmans looking "clean and sharp". I met up and bought a bunch and about 30% were short from between 1/8 to 1/16 inch short. He got angry when I called him a few days later (I felt bullied into letting the issue go), and gave me the old story of Bowman being notorious for unpredictable cuts. Well as far as I know this is not true, especially for these years.

I understand the draw of buying big lots of clean cards, and respect those of you who don't like graded cards, but I now stick with PSA or SGC cards due to this issue. If you are happy with knowing you are paying for and collecting cards that will inevitably be rejected by PSA if and when you need to grade them than that is ok. But I am not. Call me crazy, but it seems like there is someone out there buying bulk raw early Bowmans and cleaning them up a bit. After awhile these have infiltrated many collections of sellers and buyers. Beware. Any thoughts or similar experience?

[Leon]

An eighth of an inch seems like too far off to me. I don't have a lot of experience with these sets but the later the set the less variances....

Sounds to me like someone is just covering their arse...

[savedfrommyspokes]

I am currently building the 50-55 Bowman sets, and have found a small pct of the 50-53s that do not measure up. The cards in my set are typically in a mid grade condition that would yield a grade of 3-5....IMO, not likely that anyone would take the time to trim up a bunch of common cards in this condition that are likely worth $2-$10 each, but much more likely that these cards came from the factory in this condition. With the 54-55 Bowmans (55's especially), I have come across a higher percent (than the 50-53s) that are slightly short. The 55s that are short, are mainly short l/r, but a few have been short t/b. With the 54/55s, my cards are also in mid grade shape (4s/5s), so I do not feel it is likely they have been trimmed, just miscut at the factory as I also have a small percent of cards that are longer l/r.

With all of these years of Bowman cards, I have also found some cards that measure up slightly longer too...for me that is a good indicator of cutting issues at the factory.

Since my goal is not to have these sets graded, having a handful of cards in each set that are slightly short (or long) due to factory miscuts is acceptable for me. Topps is really no different(in regards to finding a small percent of cards cut short/over at the factory) as a small percent of cards in my raw Topps sets from 52-mid 70s have this same concern.

A month ago there was a similar thread :

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=186803

[MattyC]

There is definitely a natural variance in cuts from those years-- and there are also definitely trimmers out there who take advantage of that fact.

But bottom line, the factory was not producing perfect, consistent cuts back in the 50s-- heck, even 70s stuff comes fresh out of the pack or vending box with size variances. If it's egregiously short, easy to stay away. But if it's in the good zone it's often hard if not impossible to tell.

[marvymelvin]

One main issue I have then, "if in fact they are factory miscut", are the number of cards that come back to me from the grader as trimmed or altered. I have even measured by placing up against a know good card, measured with with a ruler before sending them and to the naked eye they are fine, but it seems that PSA has a different ruler or at least one that is laser point accurate. I always thought that in order to grade it as trimmed they would ok the edge with a loupe in addition to the measure of length.

I have also had cards that I know for a fact have never been altered because I got them from the original owner who is 80 and who just found them after 50 years, no lie, and get them back trimmed, or had a buyer complain to me that the card I sold them was trimmed.

Anyway, I almost quit collecting altogether, much like I refuse to buy a single autograph because of all of the dishonesty and trickery. I decided to jump on board here at net54 last week and am glad that I did because I feel that I can make informed decisions as to what to buy with all of your help. So thank you.

Brad

[toppcat]

It would seem that for every short card there should be a corresponding long card - call it Newton's fourth law. Where are the longer cut Bowman's if there are so many short ones?

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

One main issue I have then, "if in fact they are factory miscut", are the number of cards that come back to me from the grader as trimmed or altered. I have even measured by placing up against a know good card, measured with with a ruler before sending them and to the naked eye they are fine, but it seems that PSA has a different ruler or at least one that is laser point accurate. I always thought that in order to grade it as trimmed they would ok the edge with a loupe in addition to the measure of length.

I have also had cards that I know for a fact have never been altered because I got them from the original owner who is 80 and who just found them after 50 years, no lie, and get them back trimmed, or had a buyer complain to me that the card I sold them was trimmed.

Anyway, I almost quit collecting altogether, much like I refuse to buy a single autograph because of all of the dishonesty and trickery. I decided to jump on board here at net54 last week and am glad that I did because I feel that I can make informed decisions as to what to buy with all of your help. So thank you.

Brad

Brad,

The graders don't always get it right; they are just humans and often know less than advanced, passionate collectors. There are literally thousands upon thousands of cards that get an EOT designation one day, then get slabbed the next. Just as two or three random graders will not always agree on a card's grade, the same way two or three experienced collectors may differ.

What matters at the end of the day is getting to know the cards, choosing a TPG that you trust will get it right the overwhelming majority of the time (both major TPGs are great in that regard), and deciding what size card you are comfortable with considering your own experience and the opinion of collectors and graders you respect. Hope that perspective helps.

Best,

Matt

[steve B]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It would seem that for every short card there should be a corresponding long card - call it Newton's fourth law. Where are the longer cut Bowman's if there are so many short ones?

You'd think so, but no. That's not how the equipment works.

The cutter has a fence at the back that's moved to a position, then a stack of sheets is pushed against it. When it's lined up right and stacked properly, the operator pushes the two cut buttons and first a pressure plate clamps the stack, then the cutting blade slices through.

Typically a sheet would have the edges removed first, then be cut into more manageable portions if it's large. Then those smaller portions are cut into strips and then individual cards. If the fence isn't in the right spot, all the cards in that stack will be short or narrow. (Or long or wide) The exact order might vary, like cutting into smaller sections before removing the edges.

1/8 is pretty far off, 1/32 I think was the old allowance. I believe the companies err on the side of caution. If the edge doesn't appear quite right, they reject it. At least SGC does, two of my three rejected cards were undersize, or had factory cuts that were rougher than normal. Since I didn't have them slabbed I got the explanation ticket rather than a simple "A". (The other was trimmed, and I shouldn't have bothered sending it. )

Steve B

[Paul S]

Here is an Adcock where you can see that the cutter caught part of the adjacent card at the left border. What has me scratching my head is why in the world would Bowman lay out a sheet like that, and not just put like-color TV sets next to each other? All my 55s are raw -- I swear I could stack them and every other card would be either short or long the as compared to the others.

[glynparson]

are all over the place, using a ruler to determine if a card is trimmed is useless. learn what uncut/factory cut edges look like under magnification, also the feel is different between a recently trimmed card and one from factory. You can also often tell by looking down on the card and learning what typical cuts and borders look like. Rulers have no use if you want to determine trimmed or factory cut on vintage Bowmans

[judgebuck]

A couple of years ago, i bought a large collection of 1955 Bowmans that were bought by the owner when he was a child. There were many, many that were cut short at the factory.

[marvymelvin]

So back to my question, what about TPG's psa sgc etc.? Should they not acknowledge this? I am tired of getting back cards that are not trimmed as "A". Someone pointed out that they look at the edges as well, but still getting back legit cards graded as trimmed!!

[savedfrommyspokes]

Brad, not to come across too harshly, but if you are intending on building these 48-55 Bowman sets with TPG cards, you may be better off building these sets from cards already graded cards as the opinion as to what is a factory cutting error versus a trimmed card obviously varies within each TPG. I completely understand your frustration with the cards being returned with an "A" rating on seemingly solid cards....with the added costs of having these "A" cards coming back to you, you would be better off deciding to build either a raw set or TPG set with previously graded cards to avoid the costs of non-yielding submissions.

[steve B]

The TPGs are in a difficult place here, and I can see why they reject cards that are factory but short.

How many times do we see a thread that shows a short card in a slab and everyone decries the inability of whatever company it is to detect the "obvious" trimming.

So if they reject factory cut cards that are small in one dimension they're no good because they can't see that the edges are factory.
But if they slab the card they're no good because they didn't spot the trim.

There's really no way for them to win is there?

Now, if they took their time and got it right a higher percentage of the time. (Beyond the actually very good percentage all 3 of the main ones already have) Then they could have an indicator that the card is factory but undersize. Easy for PSA with their modifiers, less so for SGC and Beckett, although I suppose Beckett could add a Qualifier to the edges subgrade.
Then again......Nah, it wouldn't work. Unlike stamp people who expect that anything sent for a cert will be away for maybe 3 months or more, baseball card collectors and dealers just want the grade they want right away.

Steve Birmingham

[marvymelvin]

Thanks guys. I understand things a bit better. Basically the system is good but not perfect. And we just have to work within the system that is in place. Like was mentioned, My best bet is to buy graded cards in the first place.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by glynparson

are all over the place, using a ruler to determine if a card is trimmed is useless. learn what uncut/factory cut edges look like under magnification, also the feel is different between a recently trimmed card and one from factory. You can also often tell by looking down on the card and learning what typical cuts and borders look like. Rulers have no use if you want to determine trimmed or factory cut on vintage Bowmans

Glyn said pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Get yourself a nice loupe, 10x, if you don't already have one. Compare the card in question to another card from the same set that you know has not been altered. Their edge cuts should look the same. If something's been trimmed, it will look quite different, I assure you.