Top 5 pitchers of all time?

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Posted By: Erich

Who are your top 5 hurlers of all time?

Here are mine (with a pic of the big train) in no specific order:

Walter Johnson
Greg Maddux
Mordecai Brown
Pedro Martinez
Nolan Ryan

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Posted By: Mark

Christy Mathewson
Walter Johnson
G.C. Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Bob Feller (war-shortened career)

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Posted By: DD

In no order

Mathewson
Johnson
Paige
Spahn
Carlton

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Posted By: MVSNYC

what is with this greg maddux thing all of a sudden?

i found this link...interesting...

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/


my list:

johnson
young
mathewson
koufax
clemens

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Posted By: Neal

My five are as follows:

1)Walter Johnson

2)Grover Cleveland Alexander

3)Christy Mathewson

4)Lefty Grove

5) Warren Spahn

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

1. Walter Johnson
2. Christy Mathewson
3. Lefty Grove
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander
5. Cy Young

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Posted By: David Goff

Here are my top 5

In no particular order:

Walter Johnson
Nolan Ryan
Sandy Koufax
Cy Young
Rube Foster

David Goff

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Posted By: Erich

i'm a bit biased b/c I grew up watching Maddux pitch for the Braves...but he's one of the best fielding pitchers in history (right there with 3 finger Brown), he's got Cy Youngs, is right up there with the all-time greats in SOs and Wins. it's tough to argue against him!

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Posted By: Turner Engle

Mathewson
Johnson
Koufax
Ryan
Jenkins

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Posted By: Craig W

Cy Young
Don Newcombe
Bob Gibson
Tom Seaver
Rollie Fingers

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Posted By: Mark L

Walter Johnson, Pete Alexander, Lefty Grove, Christy Mathewson, and Cy Young.


honorable mentions for Nichols, Galvin, Miner Brown, Plank, Hubbell, Spahn, Koufax, Gibson, and Seaver.

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Posted By: Dennis Mosley

My 5 in order are 1 Johnson-Mathewson (You cannot say which is best it would do injustice to the other)2 Alexander 3 Young 4 Plank. NO new pitchers allowed on my list (Sorry). Thanks. Dennis.

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Posted By: Jay

Clemens, Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Koufax

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Posted By: Chris Mc

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Dickey Kerr

I kept it all prewar.

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Posted By: Will

Not in any particular order:

Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson

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Posted By: Elm

I find this type of question very befuddling.
How can anyone list people from early in the last century without it being complete speculation? All we have to base it on is what's written in books or the cold reality of statistics. I'd like to see the Top 5 from, say, the 1960's on. Pitchers most of us have seen hurl many, many times in person or on TV. Know what I mean?

Edited for grammar (and it probably needs more editing!).

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

1. 1912 Boston Garter - Christy Matthewson

2. 1910 Ramly - Walter Johnson

3. 1893 Just So Cy Young

4. E 107 Jack Chesbro

5. 1933 Goudey Dizzy Dean


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: Rhys

ROY HOBBS for sure!

Seriously though

Walter Johnson (Best ever)

Lefty Grove (Would have had 450 wins if not for the way Minor League Contracts were structured in the 1920's)

Satchel Paige (Maybe the best ever but we will never know)

Warren Spahn (The most underrated pitcher of all time, better than Matty but for a crappier team)

Greg Maddux (350 wins in our generation would probably translate to 450 had he pitched 50+ years ago)

Honorable Mention Randy Johnson, His prime years were better than Koufax's and he has career numbers too. The most dominant pitcher in his prime I have ever seen and maybe ever will see.

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Posted By: Vincent

My two cents worth:
-------------------

Christy Mathewson
Walter Johnson
Bob Feller
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson

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Posted By: barry arnold

johnson
young
mathewson
alexander
3 fingers

all the best,
barry

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Posted By: Chris Counts

1) Lefty Grove
2) Walter Johnson
3) Satchel Paige
4) Christy Mathewson
5) Grover Cleveland Alexander

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

This is subject to change, but for at least the next five minutes, my choices are:

1. Walter Johnson
2. Lefty Grove
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander
5. Warren Spahn

Except for Johnson on top, the order is arbitrary.

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Posted By: DD

Well done Bruce.

Rhys,
You convinced me to replace Carlton with Lefty grove on my own list.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rhys brings up a good point about Maddux.

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Mathewson
Young
Johnson
Clemens
Oh yeah...that Ruth guy didn't turn out too bad either

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Posted By: fkw

Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
GC Alexander
Pedro Martinez
Lefty Grove

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Fergie Jenkins
Greg Maddux
Mordecai Brown

Warren Spahn
Roger Clemens
Nolan Ryan tied with Clemens

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Posted By: Ricky Y

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Nolan Ryan
Lefty Grove
Sandy Koufax

Looking at stats and the era that they played in..I always thought Lefty Grove put up some amazing numbers during a time when hitters were dominating the league.

Ricky Y

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Posted By: Elm

Anyone know where any good footage of Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, etc., pitching in games can be found? Either on line or on dvd's? I have the 'When It Was A Game' dvd's and they're incredible, but they feature players from much later in the 1900's.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I grew up listening to the radio, with Bob Gibson pitching for the Cardinals. He was dominant. Sandy Koufax was, too. And even though I'm a fan of both...


Johnson
Mathewson
Young
Grove
Alexander


Warren Spahn was a great pitcher... and Carl Hubbell, too. Dizzy Dean, Steve Carlton, Joe Wood and Ed Reulbach had some good years, too. And while Greg Maddux was a pretty good pitcher, I can't see how he belongs in the top 5. Maddux won the Cy Young Award; of all the pitchers in major league baseball, which one has the most career wins who did not win the Cy Young Award?

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Posted By: Bob

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Satchell Paige
Carl Hubbell
Lefty Grove

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Posted By: Mark

I got it, I got it. Cy Young.

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Posted By: Rob

1a) Walter Johnson
1b) Satchel Paige
now i have to think ...
3) Lefty Grove
4) Sandy Koufax
5) Randy Johnson

Rob

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Posted By: T206Collector

For those of you that left Grove off your lists, you ought to do two things:

1. Read Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract; and

2. Check out the black ink for Grove on Baseball-Reference.com, in particular the number of times Grove led his League in strikeouts and ERA.

In my opinion, the 5 best are:

1. Grove
2. Matty
3. Johnson (Walter, not Randy)
4. Koufax
5. Paige


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com this month as we count down 4 Magies, 2 Wagners and a Plank!

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

To me, a stat that jumps out about Maddux that no one even comes close to on is base on balls.
Here are career base on ball stats for pitchers I have had the pleasure to see pitch in my lifetime.

Randy Johnson - 21 yrs - career 1426 BB
Roger Clemens - 24 yrs - career 1580 BB
Tom Seaver - 20 yrs - career 1390 BB
Nolan Ryan - 27 yrs - career 2795 BB
Tom Glavine - 22 yrs - career 1469 BB
Steve Carlton - 24 yrs - career 1833 BB

Greg Maddux - 23 yrs - carrer 972 BB
The mans control and command of the mound in todays juiced ball and steriod era
are unmatched. I believe another board member stated, "if he were to of pitched 50+
years ago he might have 450+ wins". I agree. The guy is phenomenal.

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Posted By: H Murphy

Hard to judge pitchers without seeing them in person but here goes my take.
1-Walter Johnson, the #`s the rep and the longevity speak for themselves
2-C Mathewson, much the same as above not quite as dominant
3-Warren Spahn, the "Stan Musial" of pitching
4-S Paige, the biggest "if only" pitcher in history
5-Steve Carlton, the best pitching career I`ve seen from start to finish
ADDED BONUS, my Favorite "have to win today`s game pitcher" El Tiante, Louie Tiant!

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Posted By: Phil Garry

How about Babe Ruth? Although the body of work was very short, for a 5 year period (1915-1919), have there been five more dominant pitchers in baseball history? Where do you think he would rank all-time if he stuck with pitching or even split his duties 50/50?

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Posted By: Chris Counts

T206 Collector,

It's nice to see someone finally agreeing with me on Lefty Grove. Considering his advanced age when he broke in and the big time hitting era he played in, I'm convinced he was the best ever ... Elm, go back and look at "When It Was A Game" again. I recall some great color footage of Lefty late in his career with the Red Sox in Fenway Park. I have the DVD, and several times, I've played it on my computer and slowed down the action. The only thing more amazing than watching Lefty pitch in slow motion is seeing the footage of Ted Williams' swing slowed down. Brad, if you're reading this thread, I'm curious if you put Lefty on the top of your list since you have such an impressive collection of his cards (and you're cousins as well) ...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Interesting list and I'm really surprised to see so many people put Nolan Ryan in their top 5. I don't think he's even top 10 myself....but it's good to see Greg Maddux getting some play here...In my opinion Maddux had a 7 year stretch during the "steroid era" that is just flat out unbelievable. From 1992 to 1998 he never had an ERA higher than 2.72 and twice his ERA was under 2.

my list
Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Robert Feller

*honorable mention: Dazzy Vance - it's too bad he did not learn control until he was around 30 years old or he would have won 350-400 games and would have bested Walter Johnson's career strikeout mark. He led the league in K's seven years in a row with no one even coming close to him in some years. His 1924 season is one of the most dominant in major league history. 28 wins, 262 K's and 2.16 ERA - he won the pitching triple crown and his strikeouts were more than second and third place combined.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Drug-Free: Johnson, Grove, Young, Spahn, Mathewson
Drug-Allowed: Johnson, Grove, Young, Clemens, Spahn

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: John H.

1. The Big Train
2. Grove
3. Matty
4. Spahn
5. Alex

The only one on the list that can't reasonably be argued with is Johnson. He is so clearly the best of all time that it's almost incomprehensible. The other four could easily be replaced with five or ten other worthy names but Walter stands alone.

John

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Posted By: Alan

Did Koufax have the greatest 4 consecutive years in history ? Who was better ?

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

In order
1-Walter
2-Groves
3-Pedro
4-Alex
5-Sandy
6-Matty
7-Mariano

That's five, right?

The more I read about Feller, the more I think he belongs too. He was clocked at 107.9 MPH.

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Posted By: Jimi

Nolan Ryan
Cy Young
Bob Feller
Roger Clemens....yuck!
Sandy Koufax

Jimi

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Posted By: Darren

I interpret this question as who would be the 5 pitchers in my starting rotation.

1. Matty
2. Johnson
3. Koufax
4. Ryan (7 NO HITTERS)
5. Grove

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Posted By: Bob

Long-time Brooklyn Dodgers announcer and HOFer Red Barber: "I've watched baseball for seventy five years and if I had to pick one pitcher to pitch a game for me and my life absolutely depended on it, that pitcher would be Carl Hubbell."
That's good enough for me. You can have your Nolan Ryans and Greg Maddux', I'll take King Carl.

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Posted By: steve

In no particular order:

Walter Johnson
Lefty Grove
Satchell Paige
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan

almost made the list:

Bob Feller - would have INCREDIBLE stats if didn't miss years.
Christy Mathewson
Warren Spahn
Greg Maddux

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Posted By: Glen V

Hard to argue that the top five in wins aren't the top five:

W Johnson - 417 wins, 2.17 ERA
Matty - 373 wins, 2.13 ERA
Cy Young - 511 wins, 2.63 ERA
Alexander - 373 wins, 2.56 ERA
W Spahn - 363 wins, 3.09 ERA

Honorable mention:

Ed Walsh - 195 wins, 1.82 ERA
E Plank - 326 wins, 2.35 ERA

With this being a vintage board, I can't see anyone putting a current pitcher above these guys. The only modern pitcher in the top 100 for ERA is Pedro, at 99th.

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Posted By: Brian

ERA + is a better tool than ERA to compare across decades.

Here is the top 20 career ERA+

Rank Player (age) Adjusted ERA+ Throws
1. Pedro Martinez (36) 160 R
2. Lefty Grove+* 148 L
3. Walter Johnson+ 147 R
4. Dan Quisenberry 146 R
Ed Walsh+ 146 R
Hoyt Wilhelm+ 146 R
Joe Wood 146 R
8. Brandon Webb (29) 144 R
9. Roger Clemens (45) 143 R
10. Jim Devlin 142 R
Addie Joss+ 142 R
Al Spalding+ 142 R
13. Johan Santana* (29) 141 L
14. Kid Nichols+ 140 R
15. Randy Johnson* (44) 139 L
Roy Oswalt (30) 139 R
17. Mordecai Brown+ 138 R
Cy Young+ 138 R
19. John Franco* 137 L
20. Bruce Sutter+ 136 R


http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ERAplus_career.shtml

Definition: ERA+ - the ratio of the league's ERA (adjusted to the pitcher's ballpark) to that of the pitcher. > 100 is above average and < 100 is below average. lgERA / ERA


My top 5 is perfect (because I am an expert in my own opinion)
Pedro Martinez
Lefty Grove
Bob Gibson
Cy Young
Walter Johnson

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Posted By: Anonymous

Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Satchell Paige
Sandy Koufax
Craig Swan