Interesting Ebay Bidding

[dariushou]

First, I would like to say hi to everyone. Been kind of hiding in the shadows and rarely post (wish this was not my first).

Anyhow, does someone know why the winner of this baseball card a few months ago is bidding up the exact same card he/she won in May? By exact, i mean, EXACT--same PSA Cert.

Did this person win the card then decide to sell it and then buy it again in a 3 to 4 month period, lol? This is just one of over a dozen auctions that i checked and ALL of which demonstrated similar behavior by this bidder:

OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/351725481279?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 5/15/16
Ebay Item: 351725481279
Amount: $221.00
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471732


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/401182616829

Look who is bidding it up. Just no shame...actually winning a lot of the ones i checked.

Maybe i'm completely wrong, but this looks incredibly odd to me.

[Neal]

Interesting ......

[JustinD]

Pretty sketchy.

I hope Brent sees this thread.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Pretty sketchy.

I hope Brent sees this thread.

or just emails him because he does not see every thread on here.

[Leon]

Kind of looks sketchy to me too..

Originally Posted by dariushou

First, I would like to say hi to everyone. Been kind of hiding in the shadows and rarely post (wish this was not my first).

Anyhow, does someone know why the winner of this baseball card a few months ago is bidding up the exact same card he/she won in May? By exact, i mean, EXACT--same PSA Cert.

Did this person win the card then decide to sell it and then buy it again in a 3 to 4 month period, lol? This is just one of over a dozen auctions that i checked and ALL of which demonstrated similar behavior by this bidder:

OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/351725481279?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 5/15/16
Ebay Item: 351725481279
Amount: $221.00
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471732


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/401182616829

Look who is bidding it up. Just no shame...actually winning a lot of the ones i checked.

Maybe i'm completely wrong, but this looks incredibly odd to me.

[Stonepony]

Remember, EBay and Brent have teamed up and instituted top secret " powerful tools" to stop illegal bidding practices in his auctions. So no worries, all is fine.

[Leon]

The powerful tools = emailing Brent .... (who does take action, btw)

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Remember, EBay and Brent have teamed up and instituted top secret " powerful tools" to stop illegal bidding practices in his auctions. So no worries, all is fine.

[ALR-bishop]

First post and controversy right off the bat.

Welcome Darius

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

First post and controversy right off the bat.

Welcome Darius

LOL.

Maybe the guy is just trying to save the buyer's remorse for spending 225 bucks for a Kellogg's Rick Monday because it's in a plastic slab.

When the crash comes, it's these incredibly overvalued "high grade" commons that are getting pushed off the life boat first. I just don't get that people don't understand the reason they are "low pop" is that only a couple people want to actually pay to grade a Joe Shlabotnik, it doesn't mean there isn't a million of them.

[Bram99]

I think I have a Joe Shlabotnik Rookie Pacific Coast League Winky Dinky Dog Franks issue. Extremely low population. Let me check.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by JustinD

LOL.

Maybe the guy is just trying to save the buyer's remorse for spending 225 bucks for a Kellogg's Rick Monday because it's in a plastic slab.

When the crash comes, it's these incredibly overvalued "high grade" commons that are getting pushed off the life boat first. I just don't get that people don't understand the reason they are "low pop" is that only a couple people want to actually pay to grade a Joe Shlabotnik, it doesn't mean there isn't a million of them.

People do get it; they are just collecting what they want to collect.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by MattyC

People do get it; they are just collecting what they want to collect.

Hey Matty, I wasn't shooting down those that are collecting for the love of it.

I am all for people collecting what they want and I admit to being an offender myself by having a registry set for Parrish. I do draw a line in the sand on paying realistically for these.

It's a fine line sometimes between those that are collecting cards and those really just collecting plastic holders.

After seeing your collection at times, I fully believe you understand collecting the card. It's just seeing people pay multiples of thousands for an off centered 10 for the impact on their registry and passing up a better 8 because the grader was blind that day that seems like the definition of madness.

[Brent Huigens]

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

[nsaddict]

Brent does deserve kudos for posting here and taking action. I wish ebay would have the balls to apply stricter bidding policies. As an example, bidding privileges should be revoked with too many bid retractions. Wouldn't be a cure all, but a start in the right direction. But we know they would never do such a thing.

[JustinD]

Thank you Brent.

You do deserve kudos for taking action.

[dclarkraiders]

Brent,

Thanks for taking action.

Duane

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Thank you Brent.

You do deserve kudos for taking action.

Yes he does. Unfortunately, we can't alert the other non-ebay AH's of this same practice because we can't see the bidders. So let's just assume this practice is rampant over there until otherwise noted.

[JustinD]

Trust me, it's fully assumed.

[dariushou]

Brent, thanks for removing those bids on those few items, but this bidder 7**0 is shilling a ton more of your auctions. Basically, just about all of your 71 Kelloggs that you have up. This bidder is the consignor (he just won these exact same cards). Another example,



OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/142049996438?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 7/19/16
Ebay Item: 142049996438
Amount: $187.50
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25731942


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/142107799983


As you can see, the winning bidder of the old auction is bidding up the current auction. Another question, did this same bidder submit the McCovey back in July? If you look at that original auction, he was trying to shill it too. His/her bidding for that original auction makes no sense if you are trying to win the item. I can bring up over a dozen examples like this and i am not even looking that deep into it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Brent, thanks for removing those bids on those few items, but this bidder 7**0 is shilling a ton more of your auctions. Basically, just about all of your 71 Kelloggs that you have up. This bidder is the consignor (he just won these exact same cards). Another example,



OLD AUCTION:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/142049996438?rmvSB=true
Ebay Auction Date: 7/19/16
Ebay Item: 142049996438
Amount: $187.50
Winner: 7***0
PSA Cert: 25471731


Current Auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1971-Kellogg...-/142107799983


As you can see, the winning bidder of the old auction is bidding up the current auction. Another question, did this same bidder submit the McCovey back in July? If you look at that original auction, he was trying to shill it too. His/her bidding for that original auction makes no sense if you are trying to win the item. I can bring up over a dozen examples like this and i am not even looking that deep into it.

I sincerely hope you are emailing Brent with this information and not just posting it on here.

dariushou you are doing a great service to the collecting community, Thank You!!!

[bnorth]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***0 ( 1797Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 1971 Kellogg's Willie McCovey #33 PSA 10 GEM MINT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1987
Items bid on: 551
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 25% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 19

This is the shill bidder mentioned in the earlier posts. 19 bid retractions in 6 months. With that bid history he should have been blocked by Brent and not allowed to keep bidding on his own items.

[Neal]

good to hear

[irv]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I sincerely hope you are emailing Brent with this information and not just posting it on here.

dariushou you are doing a great service to the collecting community, Thank You!!!

X2!

[jmb]

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810...84.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jmb

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810...84.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

Problem is you don't have the loyal bidders PWCC does. Hell they even make threads on the main page about how they ship in a timely manner.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by jmb

I thought that this one looked pretty suspicious to me:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

So, I decided to list mine as an experiment:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272369576810...84.m1555.l2648

I find it amazing how r***b bid all the way up to $5105 for this card, but yet, he hasn't contacted me on mine which would save him considerable $$$ since a PSA5 with great centering is really a $3500-$4000 card on a good day. Both cards are centered the same except mine doesn't have a "rough" cut along the top border.

you make a good point. and you have a "make-offer" on your listing. Where are those underbidders?

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't bid 2x over VCP on cards that appear on the market regularly every two months. But the person that does do this (3***x), either has a shitload of money and doesn't care, or deserves to be shilled by (r***b).

[pingman59]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Bidder Information
Bidder: 7***0 ( 1797Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 1971 Kellogg's Willie McCovey #33 PSA 10 GEM MINT (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1987
Items bid on: 551
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 25% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 19

This is the shill bidder mentioned in the earlier posts. 19 bid retractions in 6 months. With that bid history he should have been blocked by Brent and not allowed to keep bidding on his own items.

7***0 retracted his bid on this 71K #1 Simpson PSA 9: http://www.ebay.com/itm/401182615227...N34.S1.R1.TR10

[nsaddict]

It appears his Simpson bid wasn't retracted but cancelled by Brent.

[dariushou]

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 142107799808. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

-Darius Hou.seal

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by dariushou

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 141893244499. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

I completely understand your emotions. It is truly sad how full of scumbags our hobby is. I have a problem getting caught up in it sometimes also. Hell finding a honest business/seller is like finding a needle in a haystack.

I have to take a break every once in a while to remember why I collect and try to forget about all the scum trying to make a buck by lying, cheating, and stealing.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by dariushou

I have emailed Brent. It looks like Brent canceled this person's bid on just a few items. I've alerted Brent that this guy is shilling just about all of his 71 Kelloggs auctions.

Unfortunately, 7***0 still has in place a ton of bids that aren't winning the auction, but still holding up some of the prices. Worse, he is still high bidder on auction 141893244499. I would have had all of my employees making sure this shill bidder was not bidding on anything...I would think image would really matter in the auction world.

You know, i really shouldn't have to tell Brent this consignor (OR LAST winner of EXACT card) is bidding up his auctions. Where are the controls? It is the responsibility of Brent to have these basic controls and i'm sorry, i'm not seeing them.

I mean this guy literally won the exact same cards from Brent a couple months ago (same psa cert) and then consigned the exact same cards back with Brent and is now bidding them up. If that can't be checked then please.

Excuse the early emotional post--had to vent on this.

-Darius Hou.seal

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=226296
Again...have faith in the "powerful tools" please

[Thekid1]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

Awesome Brent. Quick response and action!

[rjackson44]

this will never end ,,feebay is too greedy

[dariushou]

So i was on the CU boards today and came about a post with the title "Pwcc Description" and of course i couldn't resist. Someone pointed out a 1954 Aaron RC that ended last night. Of course it took all of 2 minutes to realize it was shilled. The same person who won the exact same card on June 12, 2016 (same psa cert number) was bidding on the auction that ended November 22, 2016. Anyhow, here is what i posted over there. When will this stop!!

"
Anyone see this one end last night, lol.

http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-Hank-Aaron-ROOKIE-RC-128-PSA-7-NRMT-PWCC-/142177026548?rmvSB=true

Is it me or isn't the above card the same exact card as the one below that ended on June 12, 2016 (same psa cert). Oh, wow, correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the guy who won on June 12th was bidding up the auction from last night. What a joke? This happens all of the time with PWCC auctions. I don't know what's real or what's fake anymore. One offs can happen, but please...it happens all of the time. And this is just the most obvious type of shills. Sure, someone is going to come on here and say the guy had sellers remorse and wanted to buy his card back.. yeah right! "

http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/401130680730?rmvSB=true

[Snapolit1]

As someone schooled me recently, if you don't shill your auctions on PWCC you will probably do quite poorly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

More notable is how much the price has dropped in a few months.

[dariushou]

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.

[HawkFan70]

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Chris Helmers

[Leon]

Brent and team are doing a great job.
As you are new you might not have noticed the bold print at the top of every page (just look above here) so here it is again, for the future....(and for all new members who might not know)
If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post.

Even if the opinion is a positive note a members full name needs to be next to it per the rules.
thanks

Originally Posted by HawkFan70

I've been on this site for a little while but this is my first post. I realize that there is a lot of shilling that happens in the PWCC auctions but we recently had a great experience consigning a few cards for the first time through PWCC.

One of the cards was a PSA 7 1954 Aaron which realized what we were hoping for with no shilling. We also consigned a 1952 Topps Mays and it went for more than we expected. Just wanted to give examples of a couple of transactions that had real sellers and buyers on the other end.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[HawkFan70]

Sorry Leon.....I added my name.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by dariushou

Still at inflated prices if you ask me. I love the 54 aaron, but there are ~350 copies in psa 7 - 7.5. It's a lot easier to shill PSA 7's and 8's and hide it because there are a number of examples out there. Of course 9s and 10s benefit from shilling too and from the effect of shilling the lower graded cards.

If someone really lost this kind of money and with the examples of shills out there, i couldn't imagine there not being some major investigations or lawsuits. I mean some guys "lost" over $40K on like a $80k item. People just don't lose that kind of money and chalk that up as part of doing business. The problem is that these are not just one off cases--it's rampant. It's just so obvious.

There are many BIN's as well that are fake on ebay as well.

[KendallCat]

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by KendallCat

It is a shame that over a 3-4 month period the collector in question and a***t were allowed to bid up items like Koufax, Clemente, Rose, and a few other rookies in PSA 7 and 8 to the point that people will lose some big $$ on them down the road. I don't see how people could not catch on when a person has 65 bid retractions in a 6 month period with the same seller, and came in second on almost every Clemente and Koufax rookie along with Rose from April/May until early August.

If anyone goes on VCP and looks up those auctions it is plain as day what they were doing, and the bid until they were the high bidder and then retract happened dozens of times - they won 3-4 of these cards while bidding up dozens of each. There is no place for people like that in the hobby, and when I saw them bidding on cards I stayed out of it. Rose rookie went from $6k to $15-18k and now at $5k. Clemente PSA 7 went to $25k/$27k/$31k and now is at $7-8k??

Might see these prices again in 4-5 years after the highs and lows wear off. Very sad for the people who lost $$ on paper.

Keith Conrad

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

I think shilling your card at an auction house is much riskier. If the increments are getting up to a few hundred dollar range, often times one bid pushes it over the top. And if you are talking a $50,000 or a $75,000 card, there is always the big risk that the next incremental step up the ladder is the end of it. Would be a bitch to be the high bidder on a $100,000 card you really didn't want. Even if you can settle up with your friend later, your still paying the auction house a vig of $10,000 or $20,000.

[Republicaninmass]

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Thanks for the board for flagging this. We are indeed addressing the matter. The bid in question has been canceled and we are counseling the consignor on the auction rules.

Consignors bidding on their own items, even if it's in earnest to win something back, is not allowed. While there probably are scenarios where this practice is more-or-less reasonable/honest, we've had to take a strict stance against it to avoid potential manipulation. New consignors are warned and then blocked from working with us if the practice persists.

Please continue to help us monitor the marketplace. This oversight is greatly appreciated.

PWCC Auctions, LLC

Bravo, Brent

[KendallCat]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I not see a recent sale on a clemente (but 8600 to 9500 in october on ebay) but i really think the ebay shilling isnt that big a deal compared to auction house where you dont see any bidder ids at all. If you see a ebay auction and its between just 2 guys, you can price the card when up to point for example when you see 4 or so (can factor in more if you want )unique bidder ids. Its unlikely there would be 4 unique bidders. In another auction houses you have no id if you are just going against 1 unique bidder or 8. etc.

The last 5 sales of the the 55 Clemente in PSA 7 have been as follows:

$7168
$8811
$9300
$7788
$8601

Go back a few months to June/July and sales for the same grade were as follows:

$25000
$23109
$27000
$31070
$25100


A couple of these I know are legit sales and know the buyer(s), but the interesting thing on these is that two months earlier these cards could be had for $7000-9000. Interesting thing was on the PSA 8's of the Clemente the same bidder, a***t, came in second on almost every PSA 8 during the May-August time period. This bidder had 63 bid retractions in 6 months!! Not only that rather than snipe auctions he would bid them up from day one and continue to bid basically against himself and lose. Think about it - if you really wanted to win why continued bidding it up, losing every auction, have 63 retractions.... Maybe why someone got banned from Heritage, Goodwin, REA, and for a short time PWCC.

Notice the price changes in the market for Clemente, Koufax, and Rose from March/April, huge spike in May-August, and then plummet from August to now. Some had to do with people speculating certain high end examples in high grades pulling up the lower grades, but a lot of it was manipulation and fraud using retractions. If they want to clean up the industry once you have 3 retractions you are out for 6 months on eBay. Next time it happens it is for a year.

Keith Conrad

[dariushou]

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What happened to the guys here who were mocking those of us who said prices were being manipulated? And those who posted here proclaiming a new world order, who doubtless were taking advantage of the high prices to dump their own cards?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I've had auction houses call and say the hi bidder backed out.

I asked this a while ago but received no answer.

The question was, if you were outbid and then moved on and purchased/spent your money on other cards, then were told you were now the high bidder, as the previous highest bidder retracted, are you now obligated to purchase that card?

Originally Posted by dariushou

Plenty of fraud/shills on 55 Clemente too. If you spend some time on VCP with any decent card that has shot up over the past several years you will find the same old crap. Seriously, this didn't just start this year. The market manipulation and fraud has been going on for a while now.

Anyhow, for the Clemente you only need to look at the last Probstein Auction 11/7/2016 and the PWCC auction on 9/11/2016. Same exact card (same psa cert) and the winner of the PWCC auction was bidding up his card in the Probstein auction. He/she lost $2,387 before any consignment fees or over 20%. I say lost, but I doubt he really lost anything...

Keith, you mention A***T, but the guys who are shilling is a lot more than just that one guy. E***T (563 FB) / E***M (3309 FB)/ N***N / N***l (282 FB) and the list goes on and on and on.

PWCC 1955 Clemente Auction 9/11/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-R...187?rmvSB=true

Probstein 1955 Clemente Auction 11/7/2016

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-Topps-1...522?rmvSB=true

Another interesting fact that doesn't prove anything by itself, but still interesting nonetheless is the fact that if you look at the last 60 1954 Aaron auctions in PSA 7, only 28 are unique PSA certs. Over half are the same cards bouncing around -- 15 to be exact with some being "flipped" 4 times. Same bidders bidding them up (many with multiple retractons and high % bid activity with same sellers). It's laughable. In fact, you'll find some of the 15 listed on Ebay right now -- some even at lower prices than they were bought. I'm sure you'll see the same with Clemente and others.

Great observations! It is something I admittedly don't look at or even think about looking at, (until now) but at the same time, I don't play in this high end part of the collecting world so I am glad that there is a good chance I haven't purchased any shilled up cards.

Personally, I hate reading that these types of things go on, as, imo, they are only hurting the hobby.