Ode to Pre-War Football Cardboard

[SilverBall67]

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[SilverBall67]

AN ULTRA RARE CABINET CARD OF THE GREAT Charles Winfred "Fred Savage". Only known card to exist of this legendary Oberlin College football star! Wow, what a melon ball-!!!

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[SilverBall67]

AN ULTRA RARE CABINET CARD OF THE GREAT Charles Winfred "Fred Savage". Only known card to exist of this legendary Oberlin College football star! Wow, what a melon ball-!!!


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[DBesse27]

Does anybody know anybody who has a cabinet card of Fred Savage? I'd love to see one some day..... Lol

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by DBesse27

Does anybody know anybody who has a cabinet card of Fred Savage? I'd love to see one some day..... Lol

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming ....

Dutch Hendrian was an early NFL player and also appeared in 158 movies as an actor. He played for the Akron Pros, Canton Bulldogs, Green Bay Packers, New York Giants, and Rock Island Independents.



jeff

[revmoran]

I have a clipping that uses that photo, Jeff - from 1933

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great clipping Mike - Thorpe on the Giants - wow. I'm guessing because the sports writers were used to baseball, the short NFL careers seemed odd to them. Thorpe doesn't really make that point though - he actually played forever

[jefferyepayne]

Picked up my second Shotwell wrapper a few weeks ago. There are at least four known variations of this wrapper and they are all tough to find.



jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Nice Jeff - do you have a box as well? I seem to remember that being posted someplace.

[GasHouseGang]

I was just looking through this thread and realized I had something that fit the theme. This card is from a 1929 Churchman British cigarette card set. I always wondered if it was from a college game or pro.

[jefferyepayne]

Great newspaper clipping pull, Mike! The Hendrian I have was clearly cut from a larger photo. Can you tell whether the newspaper clipping is a composite or a complete photo? Just wondering.

I do have a Shotwell box, John, and I think it was displayed earlier in this thread.

That's a great question, David, I wonder if anyone has been able to match the image on that Churchman with a photo or at least the teams.

jeff

[DBesse27]

Jeff, others, are any of you familiar with the T51 Murad multi-sport collegiate set? I think those cards are really really attractive. There are 6 football cards included in the set, including Harvard and Michigan. Here is a link to a CU thread with details of the set and a scan of the Harvard card:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...&enterthread=y

[jefferyepayne]

Yes, familiar with that set. I haven't picked any of them up yet but will get them eventually. They do look cool and you are correct that there are 6 football ones in the set:

Harvard football game
U of Michigan player
U of North Dakota player
Tufts College player
Colgate U football game
Buchtel College player

jeff

[Laxcat]

Filled that space in my Heisman collection that was only occupied by a lonely '55AA. 1939 Iowa Hawkeyes Yearbook. This will do until I can hunt down a Kinnick auto that I can afford/find.

[jefferyepayne]

Great Kinnick photo, Matt! Love it.

Prior to the NFL there were many informal pro leagues out there. Several of them had teams that joined the NFL in 1920. One of these leagues was the New York Pro Football League (NYPFL) that was active in New York during the 1910s.

Here is a photo of the Lancaster Pros / Malleables from around 1911 or so.



The Lancaster Pros won the NYPFL title two consecutive years in 1913-1914. However, the most significant thing about this team is that one of the very early African-American pro football players, Henry McDonald, must have played for them occasionally as he is in this photo.



Henry McDonald was officially a member of the Rochester Jeffersons but was known to play for other teams when possible to make more $$$$. Later in life he said he only had one racial incident while playing pro football and it was when the Jeffersons were playing the Canton Bulldogs of the Ohio League. Greasy Neale threw him out of bounds and reportedly said "Black is black and white is white and where I come from the two don't mix." McDonald, who was a boxer, confronted Neale and was ready to fight when Jim Thorpe stepped in and told Neale that they were there to play football and to lay off. McDonald said nobody else from Canton bothered him after that.

The Rochester Jeffersons joined the NFL when it started up but by then McDonald had retired.

jeff

Great image and history lesson, Jeff! Thank you.

[Beansballcardblog]

A year or so ago I picked up the one from my alma mater (West Virginia). It has to be the only golf card I own.

Originally Posted by DBesse27

Jeff, others, are any of you familiar with the T51 Mura d multi-sport collegiate set? I think those cards are really really attractive. There are 6 football cards included in the set, including Harvard and Michigan. Here is a link to a CU thread with details of the set and a scan of the Harvard card:

https://forums.collectors.com/messag...&enterthread=y

[Angyale]

From the Strongsville show. Still doing research on the year.

Angyale

[Laxcat]

I've been picking up obscure yearbooks to obtain photos of pre war uniforms and players. I love when I run across something like this. This is from a 1941 North Texas Yearbook.

Ted Koonce played for North Texas then served in the Air Force during the war. He held the rank of 1st Lieutenant and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 3 Oak Clusters. Mr. Koonce passed away in 2008.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Great posts everyone. Jeff, I'd read about McDonald before, amazing to see photos to accompany the story.

[orly57]

Just picked these up recently. Extremely rare

[jefferyepayne]

Nice Shotwell pickups! I've always liked these sets.

There's some images of others earlier in this thread if you want to check them out.

jeff

[Angyale]

Well, I got the era right, its from 1892. But not from Case - its from Cornell. I'm not complaining, however, as it has a first year pic of Pop Warner in it along with another College Football Hofer, Winchester Osgood.

Angyale

[revmoran]

That's a historic photo and a great pick-up.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by revmoran

That's a historic photo and a great pick-up.

+1000

Incredible piece! Congrats.

jeff

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by clamendo

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Have you seen all THREE Grange's, Carl?





jeff

[cfhofer]

Hey guys,

When I acquired the Gelbert estate last year there was an old hairbrush included in the lot. I knew it was some sort of football award based on the center emblem ("UofP 1896"). However it was so nasty I just tossed it aside and thought nothing of it. It sat in my desk drawer for at least a month or so when my wife saw it one day and said the metal looked liked tarnished silver. Knowing absolutely nothing about jewelry, I spent the following weekend polishing it with a cotton ball and Goddard's Silver polish cream. Needless to say the brush is now proudly displayed with my other treasures.

Posted are before and after pics. The inscription along the top are Charles Gelbert's initials (CSGJr.) and along the bottom is his position that year (Left Half Back).

Mark

[TanksAndSpartans]

Nice item! I just googled him - an early pro player as well - he should have been in the Mayo set.

[cfhofer]

Thanks John. Penn was not yet at the same caliber of play as Harvard, Yale and Princeton in 1894 - hence their likely omission from the Mayo set. However from 1894-98 they were dominant (arguably second to only Yale).

Gelbert's grandson and I wrote an article regarding Charles Gelbert in the Fall 2015 issue of Gridiron Greats, if interested in learning more about him.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Mark - I'll add that to my GG back order list.

So do you think Mayo got it right? Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were the top teams? If they had just wanted to include top players instead, was there an All-American team they could have looked at or that didn't exist?

[cfhofer]

Caspar Whitney (along with Walter Camp) started the "All-American" team selection in 1889. The vast majority of these players were from the Big Three until 1894, when Penn went undefeated and beat Harvard 18-4. In 1894 there were 3 or 4 (depending on which source) Penn All-Americans.

I think Mayo did pretty well overall. They used the 1893 team photos for their cards.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Mark - great info.

[jefferyepayne]

Boy that piece cleaned up nicely, Mark! Great pickup.

I grabbed this commemorative watch last night in Heritage. Gus Welch was Jim Thorpe's roommate at Carlisle, also a member of the 1912 Olympic team, AA QB at Carlisle, and QB for the Canton Bulldogs before going to law school and having a long career as a football/lax coach.





jeff

[clamendo]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

Hey guys,



When I acquired the Gelbert estate last year there was an old hairbrush included in the lot. I knew it was some sort of football award based on the center emblem ("UofP 1896"). However it was so nasty I just tossed it aside and thought nothing of it. It sat in my desk drawer for at least a month or so when my wife saw it one day and said the metal looked liked tarnished silver. Knowing absolutely nothing about jewelry, I spent the following weekend polishing it with a cotton ball and Goddard's Silver polish cream. Needless to say the brush is now proudly displayed with my other treasures.



Posted are before and after pics. The inscription along the top are Charles Gelbert's initials (CSGJr.) and along the bottom is his position that year (Left Half Back).



Mark

Well many years ago I picked up this lineup card that were inserted in the Philadelphia Inqurer from Ron Barksdale. The closest thing to a championship game was the Thanksgiving day game. In 1895, you are correct Penn was a powerhouse
Out scoring opponents 480-24, they were 14-0 and crushed Cornell in this game 46-2! Interestingly enough Wharton (I assume related to the Wharton School of Business) and your buddy Gelbert are pictured on the Penn side of the ball. I wonder why they didn't play Yale.

[cfhofer]

Carl,

That is a great lineup card. Charles "Buck" Wharton was another Penn All-American in 1895 and 1896. He was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 1963. Below is an 1894 Penn team photo, with Wharton in the back far right.

"I wonder why they didn't play Yale"....Likely because of graduate students playing for Penn.

In 1893 Yale commented after a tightly fought contest that Penn players were "mature married men, age twenty-two to thirty, one with a child eight years old". The Intercollegiate Football Association (where Yale had a heavy influence) made attempts to restrict the use of graduate students at the end of that season, therefore Penn withdrew from the league. In 1894 only six of the eleven Penn starters were students of the College (undergraduates).

Yale didn't play Penn for over thirty years after that 1893 game.


Mark

[clamendo]

He looks like a pretty tough customer. That would have been a heck of a game in 1895. Yale (13-0-2) vs. Penn (14-0)....wow !

[Angyale]

Mark,

When Win Osgood left Cornell in 1892 he enrolled at Penn in 1893 and 1894 and played football for them. Likely his 6th or 7th year playing college football. Does he appear in your photo?

Eric

[jefferyepayne]

Great pickups, Carl and Mark!

Finally snagged this 1905 Rotograph of Fielding Yost.



Love what someone wrote on the front about Yost!

"More Prominent than the President"

jeff

[cfhofer]

Jeff: That is my favorite photo of Yost. As a huge Michigan collector and fan, you couldn't post a better picture on this forum. Very cool piece. Congrats!

Eric: Osgood is not in that photo, but he was on the 1893 and 1894 Penn teams. Here is another 1894 Penn photo I acquired from the George H. Brooke estate. Brooke is seated in the center, middle row. Osgood is to the left of him.

[jefferyepayne]

Great Penn photo, Mark. That's a beaut.

Also picked up this Dominoe Post Card of the 1905 Yale team that went 10-0.

College HOFer Tom Shevlin is on this PC.



Also have a photo of Shevlin hanging out with football legend Frank Hinkey at a game in 1914.



jeff

[cfhofer]

Jeff,

Two fantastic pieces, congrats. Here is a great short story about Shevlin and Hinkey (from "Big Games" by Michael Bradley):

Back in the early 1900's Tom Shevlin was the best player in all of football. He was big, strong, fast (and extremely rich, even for Ivy League standards). He was also an arrogant brat. One day, he asked Mike Murphy, the longtime Yale trainer, how he compared to Frank Hinkey. Murphy admitted that Shevlin was faster and stronger than Hinkey. And since Shevlin outweighed Hinkey by nearly 50 lbs, he was certainly a more imposing physical specimen than the Yale legend. "Now tell me one more thing," Shevlin said to Murphy, no doubt impressed with the trainer's assessment, "How do I compare to Hinkey as a football player?"
Murphy smiled. "Do you really want me to tell the truth?"
"Sure thing"
"Well, then, Frank Hinkey makes you look like the change from a counterfeit nickel."

That is how good Hinkey was....

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

Jeff,

Two fantastic pieces, congrats. Here is a great short story about Shevlin and Hinkey (from "Big Games" by Michael Bradley):

Back in the early 1900's Tom Shevlin was the best player in all of football. He was big, strong, fast (and extremely rich, even for Ivy League standards). He was also an arrogant brat. One day, he asked Mike Murphy, the longtime Yale trainer, how he compared to Frank Hinkey. Murphy admitted that Shevlin was faster and stronger than Hinkey. And since Shevlin outweighed Hinkey by nearly 50 lbs, he was certainly a more imposing physical specimen than the Yale legend. "Now tell me one more thing," Shevlin said to Murphy, no doubt impressed with the trainer's assessment, "How do I compare to Hinkey as a football player?"
Murphy smiled. "Do you really want me to tell the truth?"
"Sure thing"
"Well, then, Frank Hinkey makes you look like the change from a counterfeit nickel."

That is how good Hinkey was....

That's a great story! We ought to have an entire thread on Mr. Hinkey. By all accounts he was a holy terror on the field even though he only weighed something like 145 pounds when he got to Yale. Just being one of a handful of 4x all-americans in the history of college football tells you all you need to know about him.

Check out this story about his playing days and Yale's rivalry with Harvard.

http://archives.yalealumnimagazine.c.../football.html

jeff

[cfhofer]

I agree Jeff. It is a shame he has been forgotten over the years.

[cfhofer]

I was contacted by the Tiffany Co to purchase this large, original 1888 Yale football team photograph from their archives. This team went 13-0 and was untied and unscored upon that year. What makes this piece extra special is that it was acquired from an estate auction of Pa Corbin's grandson. After confirming the provenance with his descendants, this photo was indeed the personal copy of the team's infamous captain. I feel blessed to be the temporary custodian of such a historic piece.

Attached is a pic with my eight year old son.

Mark

[TanksAndSpartans]

Beautiful piece. I checked here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1888_Y..._football_team That was some season.

[jefferyepayne]

Incredible piece, Mark! Congrats.

jeff

[revmoran]

Could there be a better exemplar of 19th Century Yale football than Pa Corbin - he out-camps Camp. Great photo and even better photo holder -

[cfhofer]

Thanks guys. I couldn't agree more Mike. One day these photos will be his, although I'll probably donate a few to the College Football Hall of Fame in Atlanta. Their new museum is fantastic!

[S_GERACE]

I think the old Harper's woodcuts are neat but they don't hold a candle to that photo. A museum quality piece! Congratulations!

[cfhofer]

Thanks Scott. I never got into the Harper's Weekly Woodcuts. Are the football ones valuable? You have any nice examples?