Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

[phabphour20]

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

I need to make some popcorn

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

[packs]

Just FYI a max bid is the maximum amount you're willing to pay. A winning bid is the highest bid placed.

So if you're being shilled, you are not buying a card at a price you're willing to pay. You're buying the card at a price the seller is willing to sell it for.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by phabphour20

Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this.

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

He could make a half-hearted effort and ban a few of his biggest offenders.

Now now, we all know this wouldn't be in his best interest...

[phabphour20]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Definitely a fair point.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

Rick did do something: "hi, best thing it to contact ebay trust and safety and let them determine if anything happened
thanks
rick"

And I bet he was grinning ear to ear as he typed the above.

[drcy]

My answer is more straight foreword and simple: Shilling is illegal, and well known hobby executives are in or soon will be in prison in part for the practice.

To be candid, it blows my mind a dealer would post on a public chat board that he thinks an illegal practice that involves deceiving customers out of their money is okay and justifies the practice. I mean, irrelevant to what are your personal thoughts on the ethics of the practice (and I understand there are honest differences of opinions and viewpoints on the practice), how stupid can one be? It's like a tax accounting posting on a board that an accounting fudging income numbers if fine with him, or a new restaurant owner posting on the local foodie board that he doesn't understand what's wrong with a cook spitting on the raw pizza because if because its cooked at 500 degrees. "Explain this to me: You're using social media to try and convince people to come and eat at your restaurant?"

For me, I think shilling is unethical and it's illegal-- a double whammy for me. I also know that an auction house or dealer does one deceptive practice, more than likely does more than one. You may not know what are the other unethical practices (alterations? deception in the sales descriptions?), but if you identify a seller as using a unethical (or worse) practice, you have identified an ethical seller. If that's not enough to convince a collector to bid elsewhere, there's nothing else I can do. But don't cry to me Argentina if a seller you know breaks the law by shilling also turns out to have sold you an altered item or overembellished the description, because I'll say "And you're somehow shocked that an unethical seller would act unethically?"

I point out that well known hobby executives in the news were prosecuted for shilling AND not disclosing at sale that items were altered and that independent scientific evidence pointed to certain items not being authentic.

My opinion is that the people who boast on a chat board that they, as bidders, have control over shilling going on and it doesn't effect or bother them because they do their homework or bid only what they're willing to bid or whatever, most likely don't have a clue. To me at least, such posts show ignorance and my guess is most of those posters are "buyers" whose opinions about been shilled will change when when they sell their collections.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Rick cannot control it, but he can do something about it when it's pointed out to him. Shillers (by first and last name) have been brought to Rick's attention and he chose to do nothing about it. He let them continue to consign and he let them continue to shill.

That's where he lost my respect and my business (and I think a lot of other forum members too). He turned a blind eye when it was pointed out that one of his buddies was shilling their own consignments. To me, that says a lot about his character.

I agree with this 100%

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

Indeed you are part of the problem. Perhaps slow down the purchases from sellers who are known to support support shilling?

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

So I am part of the problem, b/c I might see a card that I want/need, and I buy it. Hmmm, I guess i should just stop buying cards now.

Not buying cards from people known to be breaking the law does not mean "I should just stop buying cards now"

And now, I am done with this conversation. I enjoy this type of thread much more when I can just sit back and be entertained. My mistake for getting involved at all.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

Sorry, but if I see a pc card that I have been searching high and low for, I am damn sure buying it. Look at me as a consumer willingly being taken advantage of and not a problem.

The above thinking is why shilling works. Our friend, thenextlevel, is one of many who think this way and it's best that we all understand it. Doesn't mean to stop trying to stop illegal behavior, but at least it helps us understand why it is so effective. 'thenextlevel' won't go to jail for bidding in a shilled auction, and that's really the only thing that would stop him from supporting this illegal activity.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me, the problem of card doctoring, and increasingly, the problem of fake slabs and flips, are much more problematic than shill bidding. But the feds don't seem to see it that way, nor do most collectors.

[hangman62]

I think nobody on this site should bid on ANY Probstein lots anymore....stay away !

I will monitor his auctions and bid accordingly. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up

[glynparson]

Peter said. With doctoring you may get something worth 1-10% of what you paid or in the case of a fake flip 0%. It is rare to get shilled these types of percentages from what is pointed out in these threads. They both suck and should not be tolerated but Peter's examples of fraud screw you much worse than a shill bid

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by dclarkraiders

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay. If I win great. If I lose, I'll get the card from other sellers, sources, etc. I understand your angst but $62.00 is a small price to pay for a lesson learned. Good luck in your future collecting endeavors.

Duane Clark

+1. Well its nice to get a bargain now and then, most great collections in any field are not built on them. Bid the max you are willing to pay, evaluating as best you can the item's past, present and future potential value, and you will never be cheated.

Best wishes,

Larry

[packs]

I don't understand that logic though. The maximum you're willing to pay isn't the winning bid. You're essentially saying it's no big deal to pay the most you're willing to pay. But to me it is a big deal because I didn't have to pay that much in the first place.

Do you guys use coupons or ever buy things on sale? Or do you insist on paying MSRP for all your purchases?

[nolemmings]

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

[sbfinley]

So most people here would check the bidding history of 2,000 daily auctions 5 times a week for impropriety if you owned a major eBay consignment company? No, you wouldn't because you wouldn't have enough time in the day. So you'd pay two (you would need at least two) full time employees to do nothing but check bidding history when in reality many eBayers have multiple accounts, legitimate bidders retract occasionally (blame eBay for allowing it), and new or occasional buyers may have an exceptionally high bid history percentage with you? Now, you've burned $70k in overhead and salary to discover shillers so everyone uncomfortable with the idea of simply bidding what they value the item to be worth to them can now comfortably umm... bid what they value the item to worth to them. That would be an amazing stand to please those prospective customers who would have else boycotted your company on the basis of principle although then you also need to become the CEO of eBay to change the implemented practice of anonymous bidding which allows such shilling chicanery to flourish because those who boycott your company on principle must certainly also boycott eBay for the exact same reasons. Kudos.

[Runscott]

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

I specifically said I felt it was an idiotic sentiment. I think you are very intelligent and always enjoy our conversations. You are far from what I think an idiot is. And who knows, maybe my thoughts are idiotic?

[nolemmings]

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

No, to me it's blaming one cop for a city wide problem. The original poster stated that all five cards were from the same modern set so the low feedback bidder could have been no different from him and trying to pick up multiple copies from the same seller. Had he (low feedback bidder) won the five and the OP been quiet on eBay for the past month it would look the exact same to him with no impropriety whatsoever. I'm not saying shilling doesn't occur in some of his auctions, I'm saying there is no feasible way for a seller of his volume to police it. That's not his fault, that would be directly on eBay.

[Runscott]

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

[4815162342]

If only Grand Slam Bids could've made it...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

[sportscardtheory]

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

It depends if it is a Problemstein auction yes. If it is another large seller that has a banner ad on this site no. I don't get it but that is the general consensus.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

So you walk into Walmart looking for diapers. You normally spend $20, so that's what you intend to spend. You pay the $20 and on your way out the door you see that they are on sale for $15. Turns out the cashier knew it because it was the #1 selling item of the day and they cashed them out a hundred times. They just didn't tell you because they didn't like your face and wanted their employer to get that extra $5.

Who would be okay with this based on the fact that their intent was to pay $20.

the problem with this analogy is the schilling is really a reserve....Walmart never was gong to sell at 15..ony 20...it was bad that they made you go to to the store..but they would not ever be able to sell it at 15...only 20....

instead of just saying there is a 'reserve' they are just shilling..to me shilling and the reserve are the same thing.....except shilling in major auctions costs more cause if they shiller 'wins' they could pay a 20% fee on their own item...

[4815162342]

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

I don't know what VCP is. I was commenting on standard auctions as there is no buyers commission on ebay. The seller absorbs all the costs.

Aside - You can 'teach' ethics, the difference between right and wrong. You cannot teach morals, doing what is right versus what is wrong. That is why all law students must pass an ethics class, but not a morals class.

I generally only bid within the last 15 seconds of an auctions end on items I want at at the maximum price I am willing to pay. The price I am willing to pay is always lower than my perceived value of all items that I will resell. On the items I collect I may bid as a collector, but still price it in a similar way. I don't believe I have seen shilling on the auctions I bid on.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Does eBay not have the ability to data mine auctions to look for evidence of shilling? I would think at the very least they could after the fact if not in realtime. What if the shiller-inflated amount was refunded automatically if shilling was found within X number of days of auction end? That would put a stop to a lot of this.

I know, I know. I'm dreaming.

Only way that would work is if somehow, Ebay had a list of all of Probsteins consignors and could match up their consignor info with their bidding info.

Bid %'s don't mean a whole lot unless they are also retracting bids, or they are not paying for auctions they win. Those are two things Ebay could easily track or put limitations on, that they don't.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Bidder Information
Bidder: 0***r( 336Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description:
Item Title:
1974 Topps #281
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 1733
Items bid on: 1709
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 99% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

I was about to bid on this auction ..

anything fishy with a 99% bidding history on 1733 total bids?

That's one I'd be concerned with. Not the original post that started this.

It's either a super loyal customer, a bottom level bidder throwing in lowball bids on nearly everything to see if anything sticks and living vicariously through the auctions process (notice hardly any more bids then items bid on), or a shilling consignor setting his own reserve, one bid at a time, on Probsteins auctions.

Only Probstein and the consignor knows if it's the last one, thanks to Ebay's recent trend into "privacy".............but if it is a consignor there's no way Probstein DOESN'T know who it is, based on the large volume of items involved here........it would be hard to claim it's too much work to suss out the consignor.

Looking through a bit of the history it looks like he's a heavy bidder on 1974 Topps hi-grade PSA cards. He has won some auctions and has not pulled any bids. Probstein would know if he's not paying for his auctions.............or if he is and they're from a consignor willing to take a loss to protect his cards, he'd know that to.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???

How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.[/QUOTE]

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I understand the point that everyone is a criminal, although I disagree with it, but Probstein is anything but a policeman. In any analogy you choose ebay has failed in that role.

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...[/QUOTE]

I think a card is worth what your willing to pay for it no matter what a BV or price guide may tell you. People say they got a good deal when they get a card they want for the price they wanted to pay. You may not agree with the price paid but at the end of the day I don't think shilling will come to an end. Therefore if I get a card for less than what I myself am willing to pay, "I got a good deal."

-Nick

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Probstein is crooked. His auctions are crooked. All the vomitous excuses listed here don't change that.

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Is it him, or all ebay consignors? I can't see any consignor doing things any differently than he does. I could be wrong, but what consignor does things differently? Does PWC aggressively fight consignees shilling their consignments?

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

[bbeck]

Probstein is all about the mighty dollar, no matter how small, plain and simple. Pretty sad business model with zero class, built around pure greed and ego. He could care less about shilling, it's all about the money. I came to this realization after an encounter with him after an ebay sale. In the end, he kept the few extra dollars that he was not entitled to. In reality, I actually won, he has to look at himself in the mirror everyday. Huge bummer for Probstein.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

Because I'm a confident person




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[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody is asking Probstein (or any other consignor) to fight shilling. It would be ridiculous to expect them to police their auctions. However, we do expect them to do something about it when it is pointed out to them.

I hear ya, David. I don't think much of probstein for just sitting back in this situation, seems shitty imo. He could at least put on a show for us and act like he somewhat cares...it could save the net54 community multiple threads and hours wasted going over the same stuff that never changes. Appease us, damn it!


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[1952boyntoncollector]

For Argument sake..

lets say you are prepared to pay $400 for a card...it was shilled from $370 to $400...and someone pays $400

lets now go back in time...and there is no shilling...its just a a buy it now for $400.....and that same someone buys that card..

the fact is the card is worth $400...in past sales history or whatever....the fact is someone was willing to pay $400....it may be he last person on earth that was willing to pay $400..but if I bought the card a year later after it changes hands off the grid several times I would see a past sale of $400...it doesn't matter to me how it got to $400..the fact is someone was willing to pay $400...

[packs]

That line of thinking still isn't making sense to me. Your max bid is not the price you're willing to pay. At least for me it isn't. My max bid is the most I want to pay for a card. I'm willing to pay less.