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#1
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Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?
I had always considered Al Kaline to be a somewhat better player than Roberto Clemente, and objectively, the stats would seem to indicate that was true: Kaline--134 OPS+; .856 OPS; 15-time All-Star; 10 gold gloves; % runs created above league average of 154%. Clemente: 130 OPS+; .834 OPS; 12-time All-Star; 12 gold gloves; % runs created above league average of 142%.
Yet Karl Ravech's (clearly incorrect) statement on air recently that "Clemente built the Pirates' franchise" (ever hear of Honus Wagner, Karl, unanimously rated as the greatest shortstop of all time, linked with Cobb as the two best players of the first 20 years of the 1900-1920 era, and rated by Bill James as the second best player of all time) got me thinking. I perused my latest Heritage Auction catalog and found a great abundance of Topps Clemente cards in NrMT-Mt or better prominently featured. Obviously, the conclusion to be drawn therefrom is that he sells, and very, very well. Has Clemente arrived within the inner circle of the elite, joining Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Gehrig, etc., or is he on his way? Certainly his untimely heroic death and legendary humanitarianism boosts his stock considerably. Has he come that far, though? All thoughts appreciated. Regards to all, Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 07-10-2018 at 03:02 PM. |
#2
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I've always thought of Kaline and Clemente as roughly comparable with perhaps an edge to Clemente. But interestingly, on baseball reference, Kaline is not in the top ten for Clemente's similarity scores.
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#3
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Not as far as the examples mentioned in the hobby. But certainly worked his way to Aaron hobby status.
I think taking away all the prewar examples you tossed out and focusing on postwar he is very likely top-5 and is relevant enough to be well known to the next generation of collectors. Also, not to absolutely blow his cards out of the water in pricing. We have seen what has happened to Jackie's cards following the release of "42" which brought the story back in the limelight. The same studio bought the rights to do a Clemente movie and hired director Ezra Edelman in February to direct it. It's a total go and should be coming out late next year or 2020. I would anticipate it would very much renew the interest to the casual person in the same way 42 did. Roberto is not done.
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I have no idea who Karl Ravech is, but I find that many present day sportswriters don't think baseball existed before Mickey Mantle and Roger Maris. Clemente might be the oldest Pirate player he knows of, that and Mazeroski is too hard to spell or pronounce. Research is hard for some people.
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#5
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Post war he is the second easiest sale after Mantle IMHO. He sells faster than Mays and Aaron for me.
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On Karl Ravech and somewhat related:
While I totally agree with my statement on Clemente, I just remembered why this struck a chord. Ravech is the idiot that on Jackie Robinson Day 2009 ended his piece on Jackie Robinson by saying, quote, "tragically lost his life in a plane crash delivering humanitarian supplies to Nicaragua". It was epic in it's stupidity. So while Ravech is a twit, Clemente is top-5 postwar and maybe top-3.
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#7
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Thanks for your thoughts, Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 07-10-2018 at 04:06 PM. |
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Gary, Karl Ravech is in the ESPN broadcast booth, usually with Tim Kerkjian and Eduardo Perez. And Justin, I agree that he is absolutely a "twit." He likes to spout out regarding matters of baseball history, but is very ill-prepared to do so.
Highest regards, Larry |
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OK admittedly as a Hispanic Pirate fan I am terribly biased. Nonetheless, when I think Pittsburgh Pirates Honus doesn't jump out at me as the face of the franchise. That would be Roberto Clemente. He transcends the game in a manner similiar to Jackie Robinson. His essence cannot be reduced to numbers. His pride, passion, compassion and elegance are impossible to define with statistics. The manner in which he died elevates him as well. It is frequently said that Jackie Robinson is baseball's social conscience and Roberto Clemente is its patron saint. No offense to Kaline, in my opinion Roberto rates in that inner circle you mentioned. I dont collect cards or memorabilia based on statistics. I collect Clemente and the 1971 Pirates because they evoke strong feelings in me. They stir my emotion and passion for baseball. I certainly hope Baseball eventually retires #21.
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#10
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Nobody, but nobody ever or now had / has the arm that RC had. Just a lazer shot for runners foolish enough to try stretching a double into a triple. Had he played another 4 years, I think he would now be the all time hits leader.
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#11
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And a card: Last edited by CW; 07-10-2018 at 07:00 PM. |
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He had 3000 hits, was 37, and was coming off a 118 hit season. I don't think he was a threat to the all-time hit record.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-10-2018 at 05:33 PM. |
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#14
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Agreed. Still a long ways to go to catch Pete. At 150 hits/year, he would have needed more than 8 more seasons.
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All due respect to Al Kaline but I don't know if I can point to one thing anyone would remember Kaline for. Clemente's death will keep his name on people's minds forever.
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#16
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Now, I'm as big of a Clemente fan as any, and while I had not seen either Kaline or Clemente play in person (too young), it should be known that Kaline also was known for a rocket arm. Just read the cartoon on the back of his 54 Topps rookie card. Also, if you have a minute, check out this passage from Bill Dow's blog article. Here's the excerpt on Kaline's arm: Quote:
Last edited by CW; 07-10-2018 at 05:44 PM. |
#17
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From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value.
1. Mantle 2. Jackie 3. Clemente It’s a shame but people don’t have as hard of time letting go Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax. Just my personal experience. |
#18
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300 hits per year for 4 years?
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#19
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I only saw a little of Clemente. The best outfield arm I ever saw was Dave Parker. Wow.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#20
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I agree 100% though Jackie is now also in the discussion. Especially since 42 came out and mlb retired his number. Mays Aaron and koufax seem to be the next level guys as far as demand goes.
Last edited by glynparson; 07-10-2018 at 06:34 PM. |
#21
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Parker
I was just a few months old when Clemente died so I have to second peters statement that the best arm I personally saw was Dave Parker.
Last edited by glynparson; 07-10-2018 at 06:36 PM. |
#22
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Not having read the whole thread yet I'm sure someone else has probably already pointed out that it is doubtful that he would have averaged 300 hits a year for his age 39, 40, 41 and 42 year old seasons. Just saying.
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#23
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I knew it had to have been said.
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#24
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...and his power numbers were somewhat suppressed by playing half his games...for many years in the cavernous Forbes field. I say somewhat suppressed because Clemente wasn't a pull-power hitter, but a slash, line-drive type. I was so thankful to watch his diamond art-work in the '71 Series! Not every truly great player has gaudy stats, though 3,000 hits is pretty damn gaudy! The circumstances of his death left us wanting more...
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. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente Last edited by clydepepper; 07-10-2018 at 07:10 PM. |
#25
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Great player for sure and certainly in the same category as some of the greats of the game but was not really superior as a ballplayer than Al Kaline, George Brett, Wade Boggs, Yaz, etc., etc. which are all IMO on the second tier of "All-Time Great" status. That being said Jackie Robinson is also not on tier one as a ballplayer.
Jackie and Roberto Clemente both transcend the sport they played in their own ways. For Jackie Robinson the reason is obvious, Clemente was perhaps the first truly great Latin American superstar at the Major League level and his star has continually risen over the past few decades. Back in the day when I first began collecting Clemente's cards were priced more along the lines of Kaline, Duke Snider, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, and that group of players... below the level of Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and obviously Mickey Mantle. There has certainly been a shift in the "power rankings" of players over the years. On the flip-side of players like Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente & the Yankee Stars (Mantle, Jeter, DiMaggio, Maris, etc) are some great players that have great statistics and barely sell for more than the most common of Hall Of Famers. All these players mentioned in this paragraph tend to sell as collectibles for more than their statistical peers. It is all about demand.
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#27
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I saw the majority of Clemente's career but in the pre-cable days you only saw a player on TV a few times a season. I remember that everyone considered him an all-star caliber player but he was never mentioned among the top ten of his era.
I am a huge fan of his and as a 30 year member of SABR I'm tickled people think so highly of him now. As for the face of the franchise. There is Wagner and everyone else. Of course in this time of ESPN and Fox labeling some hit or defensive play each night as one of the best of all-time I once again am glad that people think of him. Even the NFL Network seldom recognizes anything pre-Super Bowl?????? |
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Totally Biased, but....
I am a life long Clemente collector. I was never a huge sports fan nor did I get to see him play (that I can recall - I was 6 when he died). I became interested because even when I started collecting, his cards were worth more than common players, some of the "headlines of his life" were amazing, his cards were in a multitude of cool regional and test issues.
Clemente cards have definitely risen in popularity (and price). I believe much more rapidly than some of his statistical contemporaries. As has been touched on - In addition to him being a great player (Gold gloves, multiple time all star All Star, Batting leader, MVP, 2 world series, 3000 hits), the story of him working his ass off for the love of the game and making it to a professional level - is the fulfillment of what many a child has dreamed of, His breaking through early on of a barrier first broken a few years earlier by Jackie, and his need to deal with all the associated bs and his ability to handle and rise above it and the crazy circumstances surrounding his death while committing a huge act of compassion and selflessness I suspect will continue to push Clemente up the collected charts for a while to come. I've heard talk of a movie for years - glad to hear it may be truly under way! Clemente beyond being a great player - was a great role model - something SORELY lacking with many (not all)great athletes since. Just a really unique combination of great athlete and great human being. Last edited by hcv123; 07-10-2018 at 07:40 PM. |
#29
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Seriously, though, that's some interesting information. I just spent about 15 minutes learning about total zone runs. Good stuff and point well taken. |
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How does Parker rate?
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#32
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I saw Clemente play in person when I was 9. Wow I am getting old. I do remember being awed by his arm and generally everything else about him. I was also sitting with my father in the Kingdome right field bleachers during the 1979 All Star Game. I recall asking my Dad what he thought of Parker's two throws. He said, "Amazing, but Clemente's arm was better." My opinion is colored by a 9 year olds infatuation and a 55 year-old's memory. My father on the other hand witnessed Clemente's talents many times between 1955 and 1972 at both Forbes and Three Rivers. I have always considered my father to be a bright guy despite his love of Mickey Mantle so I will accept his assessment. Another barometer of Clemente's greatness is the fact that this discussion is occurring in the pre-war section of this site and no one has complained...yet.
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1971 Pirates Ticket Quest: 98 of 153 regular season stubs (64%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%) If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have! 1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%) Last edited by 71buc; 07-10-2018 at 08:35 PM. |
#33
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Unfortunately, I never saw him play, but looking at his lifetime splits, his slugging percentage was actually higher at home than on the road - .488 vs .463. He did hit more home runs on the road though - 138 vs 102.
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#34
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Looking at his stats from the hindsight of the sabremetric era, he really walked very little which is probably why Bill James ranked him so low in his 2002 book (70th or something all time).
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#35
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Yeah hard to imagine him getting north of 3500. I never got a chance to watch him play (I'm only 32) but I think his humanitarian efforts have hoisted into the conversation of greatest players ever. It's hard for me to imagine that, based on stats, he is much above a mediocre HOF player (even though that would still make him one of the top 100 players of all time). I think even a lot of relatively recent inductees are better then him, e.g. Griffey.
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#36
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#37
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It's all arbitrary but I would probably rank him somewhere between 30 and 40 -- for me, the high batting average, the fielding, and what I sense were some powerful intangibles put him well above the average HOFer, though still not in the class of Mays Aaron and Mantle and even a bit below Frank Robinson.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#38
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Parker had a great arm but his routes to balls in the air were often baffling. He was not a good fielder but his arm was terrific which helped make up for some of his other deficiencies.
The two best arms I can recall were Dwight Evans and Ellis Valentine. |
#39
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Clemente / Kaline
Speaking of stats: Clemente was with two World Series winners (1960 / 1971) Kaline one (1968)
Clemente's lifetime batting average was .317 Kaline finished with .297. Also Kaline won just one batting title to Clemente's four. There is no doubt Clemente meant more to the Pirates then Kaline meant to the Tigers. |
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As the late Mr. Dangerfield said, "tough crowd, tough crowd." For all you wizards of the keyboard - like the above - who piped in, like jackals waiting to pounce on the latest innocuous mistake, I offer a mea culpa. I neglected to note his age, thinking he was younger than 37 when he passed. So, 300 hits for four years at that age would be inconceivable even for the great RC. However, couldn't help noting there - so far - are no rebukes to my comment re: his cannon-like arm. Hello? Anybody? Tough to dispute that one, eh?
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#41
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Griffey, Vlad and Bo were none too shabby.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#42
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Roberto's Arm
A picture (video) is worth a thousand words. There's a video of a throw he made earlier in his career that was even better, but I could not find it. I was a nine year old base ball fanatic in 1971, and was blown away by what he did in that World Series
https://youtu.be/-WnfqgOsR6A I also agree with the previous poster who mentioned Dwight Evan's arm. The best I ever seen in person
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#43
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Had he played another 4 years, I think he would now be the all time hits leader.
He would have to average 315 hits a year...... |
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#45
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My point was that he ONLY had those 10 years to accumulate stats. When a career starts at 28 you have clearly missed a number of prime years. Plus there's the fact that Jackie was a second baseman not an outfielder. Also none of what I said was a knock on Roberto, but I don't think anyone would argue that he was one of the top 2 outfielders of all-time while one could certainly make that argument for Jackie at 2b.
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#46
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It is an interesting argument. It all really depends on how you define inner circle. Clemente would have a very good augment for the all time national league all star team, starting along side Mays and Aaron, especially if you move Musial to first and depending on your opinion and stand on Barry Bonds. Does that make him inner circle? OTOH, he probably would not be in the top 10 outfielder of all time if viewed objectively, though in the neighborhood. So far as Kaline goes, he was more spectacular though perhaps not quite as consistent. He started slowly and Kaline started fast which might account for the difference. He has a much larger persona than many players who are arguably statically better than he.
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#47
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I thought the OPs original thoughts were geared toward the collecting universe not stats.
Stats arguments and comparisons are rarely concrete or objective. It's mostly bar talk. My comments were geared toward collector demand and collectability. Based on those parameters I don't think the others mentioned surpass Clemente. Parker is relegated to the dollar box and while here in Detroit, I can lay out a table of Kalines and sell them all, eBay sales do not match that demand. Clemente out paces Kaline sales by a country mile. This that was said earlier is my experience: Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post From my past experience over the last 10 years when a collector goes to sell his post war collection there are 3 guys he least wants to part with. This is how I gauge long term value. 1. Mantle 2. Jackie 3. Clemente It’s a shame but people don’t have as hard of time letting go Of Mays, Aaron, and Koufax.
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#49
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Yup I thought we were talking about collecting too. Still a lot of cool stats that are blowing my mind. |
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