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  #301  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:31 PM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is offline
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this tops the charts of t206 research. Great stuff
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  #302  
Old 07-14-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RedsFan1941 View Post
this tops the charts of t206 research. Great stuff
I'm gonna have to demur but what Pat & Steve have done is amazing. When they started out I thought there was no way they would be able to find so many cards with plate scratches. I was wrong. Great job Pat & Steve! Please post your most current sheet configurations when you can.

Last edited by sreader3; 07-14-2017 at 09:22 PM.
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  #303  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:22 PM
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I backed off looking when I traded scans with Pat. I'd been hunting through scans on ebay and sometimes auction sites, and had a decent batch saved. Pat had about three times as many and it took me a while to realize he also had the actual cards. It finally sunk in when I realized all his scans were the same size.


I'm happy to have gotten the ball rolling, but Pat has done nearly all the heavy lifting on this one.

Steve B
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  #304  
Old 07-15-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreader3 View Post
I'm gonna have to demur but what Pat & Steve have done is amazing. When they started out I thought there was no way they would be able to find so many cards with plate scratches. I was wrong. Great job Pat & Steve! Please post your most current sheet configurations when you can.
Hi Scot,

I'm still collecting plate scratch cards and scans but I haven't worked on
or updated the sheets in a while but I will post the updated sheets
when I do.

So far there are 104 different subjects and 252 different plate scratches.
Here is a list of the subjects with the number of different plate scratches
found on each one.

Abbaticchio - 3
Ames - 3
Ball - 5
Bender - 1
Bergen - 1
Birmingham - 1
Bransfield - 3
Bresnahan - 1
Brown, G. - 1
Brown, M. (Cubs) - 3
Brown, M. (Port) - 1
Camnitz - 4
Chance - 1
Chase (Pink Port) - 1
Chase (White Cap) - 2
Cicotte - 5
Clarke, F. (Bat) - 1
Clarke, F. (Port) - 1
Clarke, J.J. - 2
Cobb (Bat On) - 4
Cobb (Port) - 2
Conroy - 5
Covaleski - 5
Crandall - 6
Crawford - 4
Criger - 2
Criss - 4
Dahlen - 1
Davis, G. - 2
Davis, H. - 2
Donlin (Fielding) - 4
Donlin (Seated) - 2
Donohue - 5
Dooin - 2
Doyle - 2
Durham - 6
Elberfeld - 2
Evers (Cubs Blue Sky) - 4
Ferris - 2
Flick - 1
Ganley - 2
Goode - 1
Hahn - 2
Herzog - 3
Hinchman - 2
Isbell - 2
Jacklitsch - 4
Johnson - 3
Jordan - 1
Joss - 3
Karger - 2
Keeler (Bat) - 2
Keeler (Port) - 1
Killian - 1
Kleinow - 5
Kling - 3
Konetchy - 5
Lake - 1
Leibhardt - 2
Lindaman - 3
Manning - 1
Mathewson (Port) - 1
Mathewson (White Cap) - 3
McGraw (Finger In Air) - 3
McGraw (Port) - 3
McIntyre - 1
Mullin - 3
Murphy - 3
Nicholls - 4
Niles - 5
Oldring - 3
O'Leary - 2
Overall - 1
Pastorius - 1
Pattee - 1
Pelty - 1
Plank - 1
Powell - 3
Powers - 2
Reulbach - 1
Schaefer - 1
Schulte - 4
Seymour - 5
Shaw - 2
Shipke - 5
Smith - 2
Stahl - 2
Stone - 2
Stovall - 2
Sullivan - 1
Tannehill - 1
Tenney - 1
Tinker (Hands On Knees) - 1
Turner - 1
Waddell (Port) - 2
Waddell (Throwing) - 3
Wallace - 3
Walsh - 1
Weimer - 2
Wilhelm - 2
Williams - 4
Willis - 3
Young (Bare Hand) - 6
Young (Port) - 1

Crandall, Durham and Young (Bare Hand) have the most different scratches
with six.

Crandall%201_1_1.jpg
Durham%20Group.jpg
Durham%20_6_.jpgDurham%20_6_%20Back.jpg
Young%201a_1.jpg

The majority of the plate scratches have several examples of the same scratch.

Here are the ones I have of Sullivan and I have seen approximately 10 others.
Sullivan_1_2.jpg
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  #305  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:19 AM
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Default Murphy Plate Scratch?

Pat,
I have been following along on the plate scratch thread as I find that project intriguing. I primarily collect Danny Murphy, doing back runs for any of his issues that have multiple combinations. I just picked up a MC throwing pose that has his name top and bottom. I noticed on the back it appears to have a plate scratch and this drew me to the card even more. It is piedmont 150. I was hoping long you could confirm this as an actual plate scratch. Pic are attached.

Thanks,
Ron
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  #306  
Old 07-24-2017, 08:35 AM
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Default Murphy plate scratch

Plate scratch on top left on back?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg print scratch.jpg (27.9 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg print scratch 1.jpg (77.8 KB, 160 views)
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  #307  
Old 07-24-2017, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailingmachine View Post
Pat,
I have been following along on the plate scratch thread as I find that project intriguing. I primarily collect Danny Murphy, doing back runs for any of his issues that have multiple combinations. I just picked up a MC throwing pose that has his name top and bottom. I noticed on the back it appears to have a plate scratch and this drew me to the card even more. It is piedmont 150. I was hoping long you could confirm this as an actual plate scratch. Pic are attached.

Thanks,
Ron
Hi Ron,
Thanks for posting your Murphy double name. It's definitely a plate scratch.
Here's another Murphy with the same scratch. Yours shows more of the scratch
because of the higher cut on the top but they're the same scratch.
Murphy%202%20Back_1.jpgMurphy%2021_1.jpg

And here's the Murphy scratch that was above the one you have.
Murphy%201%20Back_1.jpgMurphy%201_1.jpg
Murphy%201%20Back_1 - Copy.jpg
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  #308  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_a View Post
I can confirm that upside down White & Doyle have matching backs. It might not be super clear in the scans but I have both in hand and they match. This means that these two cards are in opposite positions, equal rows and columns from the center, sides, top/bottom, horizontal axis, etc. If we can link either of these two to a center/side/each-other via scratch we could make a lot of progress quickly. I look forward to seeing any scratches, neighbors, two-namers, etc that you have. Another piece in the sheet-size puzzle...


Almost three years ago Steve pointed out in this thread that the upside
down back of White matched up with a Doyle back.

At the time I searched and couldn't find a Doyle or Stone (Doyle and
Stone share the same position on a plate scratch sheet) that had a print
flaw that is on the smaller portion of the second back on the upside down
White.

This Doyle that sold on ebay recently has that mark.
Doyle that matches White upside down back.jpgDoyle that matches White upside down back. Back.jpg
White (port) Upside Down Back PD 150 - Copy.jpg
White (port) Upside Down Back PD 150.jpg
So far Doc White hasn't been found with a plate scratch but if
one is eventually found it should allow us to figure out the exact
size of this plate scratch sheet based off the upside down White.


If the link works it should be a scan of that sheet that can be enlarged.
https://photos.imageevent.com/patric...ts/C-D%201.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 06-11-2018 at 12:05 PM.
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  #309  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:08 PM
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That's great work again Pat. Exciting to see pieces continue to fall into place.
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  #310  
Old 06-11-2018, 11:42 PM
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Was at a card show yesterday and picked up a P150 that has a back scratch. I’ll get it scanned and posted in the next few days. In the meantime, the blog post below has my video where I show it. Hopefully it’s a new discovery!

CARD SHOW ACQUISITIONS: PLANO CARD SHOW 6/10/18
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  #311  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001 View Post
Was at a card show yesterday and picked up a P150 that has a back scratch. I’ll get it scanned and posted in the next few days. In the meantime, the blog post below has my video where I show it. Hopefully it’s a new discovery!

CARD SHOW ACQUISITIONS: PLANO CARD SHOW 6/10/18
Thanks for the video link Kin.

There are five different confirmed Covaleski scratches and the one
you picked up at the show is one of them.

Covaleski Group.jpg

Yours is the bottom scratch of a triple Covaleski vertical scratch.

Covaleski-1,3,5.jpg
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  #312  
Old 06-12-2018, 02:42 PM
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Well dang! Ah well, it's going to be tough to find new ones. Thanks for the note!

-kin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Thanks for the video link Kin.

There are five different confirmed Covaleski scratches and the one
you picked up at the show is one of them.

Attachment 319443

Yours is the bottom scratch of a triple Covaleski vertical scratch.

Attachment 319444
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My Collector Focus page.

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  #313  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:29 PM
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This is currently on ebay (not mine). I am sure you are aware of it, but I figured it cant hurt to pass this on as part of the plate scratch project.

The picture is poor (again, its on ebay) but the scratch runs from above the A in "Ball" down to the right (through the "m" in Piedmont) and leaves the card between the bottom right corner and the "VA"
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File Type: jpg Brown Plate Scratch front.jpg (8.9 KB, 107 views)
File Type: jpg Brown Plate Scratch Back.jpg (9.4 KB, 107 views)
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  #314  
Old 06-24-2018, 06:34 PM
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The reason they appear only on the 150 cards is because Knapp and Pancoast were finally granted a patent in Feb. 1910 that finally fixed a major defect in the lithographic printing presses at ALC.

The blue lines on the cards are called gear streaks. They occur due to uneven pressure on the rubber rollers of the printing press.

The T206 cards were printed using a "web" (meaning paper roll) offset lithography press. This was new technology at the time, replacing the old sheet fed presses. Allowing for greater production numbers.

Because they were printed on an offset press, the cards never came in contact with the metal printing plate at all. The image was transferred to the card via rubber roller.


(In this simplified diagram, the ink gets transferred from the printing plate, to a rubber "blanket" roller, and then to the card.)


(CMYK printing for T-206. First the black border and name. Then yellow, cyan and magenta. Then the back in blue.)

The problem at the time was that the rubber rollers were made of pure rubber (instead of a harder, more durable synthetic material), which didn’t hold up well to high production numbers and tended malform, snagging the paper and changing thickness easily, causing uneven tension in the press, which would then lead to the paper moving out of position in a diagonal direction, shown below:



Basically a paper jam. One that would move in a circular path as it went around and around (based on what the printing machine probably looked like – a big circle). As the rubber would swell up slightly due to the pressue, it would make contact with the inked plate, causing the streak on the paper (and also scratching and damaging the plate).

In order to combat this, Knapp and Pancoast devised a fix by inserting a middle section of the web feed (highlighted in yellow above) that would control the tension and keep the paper pressure even most of the time. At least, that’s what it looks like based on the illustration and the explanation in the patent application.

Not sure exactly how the mechanism worked, but it had something to due with keeping the tension balanced with the fabric (I believe this was the term for the “blanket”, and I’m not sure if they’re referring to the rubber roller or a blanket wedged between the paper and the roller.)
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  #315  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:39 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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That's interesting.

Here's the patent, which was assigned to ALC.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US...p+and+Pancoast


The "fabric" mentioned in the patent is not the Blanket, which was the covering on one of the main press rollers or anything wedged in between, but that does refer to the web itself.

Even if there was some sort of creasing damage to the blanket, that wouldn't produce solid lines of color. In fact it would generally produce the exact opposite, white unprinted lines. (Generally, as there's a possibility of some marks I've seen coming from a wrinkle but I can't say for sure that's what caused them. )
A sideways slip of the web would only produce wrinkles in one direction, along the web, and these scratches do exist in both directions, with a few cards showing an intersection.

There is some solid evidence that Some T206s were printed using a flatbed lithography press that printed from stones.
Have you found anything solid that indicates a multi color web press? It's possible, and I've seen a few things that make me think that a two color press may have been used for some of the production, but not much indication that it would have been a web press.

I can elaborate, but I'll probably have to draw some sketches, and it might be more appropriate in it's own thread.

What do you think Guys? Get into it here or in it's own thread?
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  #316  
Old 06-25-2018, 01:21 PM
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I'd love to see this have its own thread.

Doesn't really seem possible logically (imo) that the Print Scratches could be "gear streaks". The scratches sometimes stretch the length of the sheet diagonally, and they make abrupt changes of direction. Definitely interested to hear more about the gear streaks, but unless I'm not fully understanding the term, I don't think that's what we are looking at here.
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  #317  
Old 06-25-2018, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
That's interesting.

Here's the patent, which was assigned to ALC.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US...p+and+Pancoast


The "fabric" mentioned in the patent is not the Blanket, which was the covering on one of the main press rollers or anything wedged in between, but that does refer to the web itself.

Even if there was some sort of creasing damage to the blanket, that wouldn't produce solid lines of color. In fact it would generally produce the exact opposite, white unprinted lines. (Generally, as there's a possibility of some marks I've seen coming from a wrinkle but I can't say for sure that's what caused them. )
A sideways slip of the web would only produce wrinkles in one direction, along the web, and these scratches do exist in both directions, with a few cards showing an intersection.

There is some solid evidence that Some T206s were printed using a flatbed lithography press that printed from stones.
Have you found anything solid that indicates a multi color web press? It's possible, and I've seen a few things that make me think that a two color press may have been used for some of the production, but not much indication that it would have been a web press.

I can elaborate, but I'll probably have to draw some sketches, and it might be more appropriate in it's own thread.

What do you think Guys? Get into it here or in it's own thread?
Steve,

I guess it's possible to also do offset lithography with a stone plate cylinder.

Doing research on this a while back, I came to the conclusion that the half-tone patterns on the T206 faces were simply "Ben-Day Dots" and that it was likely easier to produce plates from metal using acid etching instead of stone. Given the large number of player subjects and cards produced, I think this is likely the case.

I think the early 19th century color litho cards were done on flat stone. They have a distinct look and feel.

Knapp was known for his designs of multi-color rotary presses. It would've been a very odd business decision if ALC printed T206 cards using flat stones and old hand-presses.
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  #318  
Old 06-25-2018, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I'd love to see this have its own thread.

Doesn't really seem possible logically (imo) that the Print Scratches could be "gear streaks". The scratches sometimes stretch the length of the sheet diagonally, and they make abrupt changes of direction. Definitely interested to hear more about the gear streaks, but unless I'm not fully understanding the term, I don't think that's what we are looking at here.
The streaks go diagonally in a straight line. Something that would happen when you have paper between two spinning cylinders, and one cylinder is spinning faster than the other with pressure on one side.

A helix of ink around a cylinder is created - like a spinning barber shop pole.



If the stripes were ink, they would produce diagonal lines on a piece of paper.


Last edited by SetBuilder; 06-25-2018 at 06:08 PM.
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  #319  
Old 06-25-2018, 06:08 PM
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I'm not trying to be argumentative, just interested in the idea and would like to understand it better. Here are the two main reasons why I don't think we are looking at "gear streaks"

1. The lines are definitely not "straight". They follow a general direction but are not a straight line.

2. The Plate Scratches follow the exact same pattern every time. For two of the Plate Scratch patterns, there are two different sheets with the exact same pattern on the back, but a completely different set of fronts. The backs allow us to re-create what the sheet looks like, which Pat has done.

If it was just a random malfunction of the press, I can't imagine that the pattern would be exactly the same every time.
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  #320  
Old 06-25-2018, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just interested in the idea and would like to understand it better. Here are the two main reasons why I don't think we are looking at "gear streaks"

1. The lines are definitely not "straight". They follow a general direction but are not a straight line.

2. The Plate Scratches follow the exact same pattern every time. For two of the Plate Scratch patterns, there are two different sheets with the exact same pattern on the back, but a completely different set of fronts. The backs allow us to re-create what the sheet looks like, which Pat has done.

If it was just a random malfunction of the press, I can't imagine that the pattern would be exactly the same every time.
Note: I edited my post above to add the barber shop illustration. Apologies if you replied before you saw it.

1. They're straight, but sometimes shaky. I've seen most of the photos posted on this thread and the shaky lines could possibly be due to vibration. They're definitely straight lines more often than not.

2. Do you mean that the lines appear on the backs only and not on the front? I think this is because the last stop (or first) on the press was the printing plate for the back design.

Last edited by SetBuilder; 06-25-2018 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:32 PM
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No. The term "gear streaks" sounds like they are random streaks on a sheet.

The Plate Scratches are a pattern that was repeated over and over on each sheet.

Pat has stacks of the same player with the same exact Plate Scratch on the back.
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  #322  
Old 06-25-2018, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
No. The term "gear streaks" sounds like they are random streaks on a sheet.

The Plate Scratches are a pattern that was repeated over and over on each sheet.

Pat has stacks of the same player with the same exact Plate Scratch on the back.
Well, I think it's more explanatory than "plate scratch," since the printing plates were relief and not intaglio. A scratch on a relief plate would be void of ink.
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  #323  
Old 06-25-2018, 09:55 PM
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Hi Manny,

The gear streak information is interesting thanks for posting about them.

I agree with Steve and Luke I don't think that's what caused the
plate scratch marks. From what I understand the gear streaks
wouldn't be repetitive and the plate scratches are. As Luke pointed
out the same exact scratch can be found on the same subject multiple
times and on some sheets they same exact scratch can be found on
two different subjects.

Konetchy Group.jpg
Konetchy Group Front.jpg

Doyle-Stone.jpg
Doyle-Stone Front.jpg
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  #324  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hi Manny,

The gear streak information is interesting thanks for posting about them.

I agree with Steve and Luke I don't think that's what caused the
plate scratch marks. From what I understand the gear streaks
wouldn't be repetitive and the plate scratches are. As Luke pointed
out the same exact scratch can be found on the same subject multiple
times and on some sheets they same exact scratch can be found on
two different subjects.

Attachment 320974
Attachment 320975

Attachment 320976
Attachment 320977
Pat,

Perhaps they're not "gear streaks" as I understood the term from the definition I found. There may be another term for the streaks in pressman nomenclature. One of these days if I have time I'll venture off to a printing forum and ask there what the streaks are called.

I still think my theory is correct. If you believe the Library of Congress' classification of T206 cards as relief prints, and you also assume that the owners of American Lithographic stuck to their area of expertise and operated a multi-color offset press, then the only valid explanation is that the scratch was on the rubber blanket roller and not the printing plate.

The Occam's razor explanation is that some kind of machine feed malfunction caused the rubber roller to bounce up suddenly, grazing the surface of the relief plate at a high speed, thus causing a scratch on the surface of roller which would hold ink and transfer to the card in the same spot each time. Either that, or simply that the roller became worn and scratched with use.

Because of the constant spinning of the roller, the scratches took the form of a helix wrapping around the cylinder, which translated into diagonal lines on the paper. The steepness of the scratch I guess depended on the speed of the press when the scratch occurred.

Last edited by SetBuilder; 06-25-2018 at 10:38 PM.
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  #325  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:24 AM
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A few comments on a couple points.

T206s are lithographed for sure. Other types of printing come across a lot differently.
There are two main sorts of lithography, direct and offset.
Both use either a specially prepared block of limestone, or a plate that can retain water. Commercially, the plates have been mostly metal for around a century. But a "lithograph" plate can be paper. In fact you can make a lithograph at home using some porous paper, a crayon, a brayer and some oil based ink. (Getting it to come out any good isn't all that easy)

T206s were not done with a modern CMYK process. The typically quoted thing is six colors, but it's usually more like 8, possibly more.

Recess printing is essentially like Intaglio, and the result is much different than lithography. Feel a new banknote, you'll be able to feel the raised in since it mostly sits on top of the paper.

The multi color press shown doesn't appear to be an offset lithography press, as the inked rollers are shown printing directly to the paper.

The stones were heavy, and had to be laid out by hand from transfers. Making them and resurfacing them was a specialty, and making a stone cylinder with the proper surface would be harder and more expensive. I've never heard of a press that printed from a stone cylinder.

Here's a small shop from around 1917. The big press on the left is a flatbed lithographic press, the small ones center and right are letter press presses.

ALC was a huge company, and owned a wide range of presses. They were also pretty tight with RS Hoe company that made presses. (Not that a place like ALC wouldn't be on great terms with a few press makers. ) Hoe had web fed typographic presses - a totally different process- in the 1800s that were used to print newspapers. They also had web fed presses, but none of their literature that I've found mentions web feed combined with lithography.
They also in around 1910 sued a couple guys who had sold them on a photographic way of making lithographic plates, which apparently turned out to be a scam as the process didn't work and never would. And was also "sold" to other companies as far away as England. So photographically transferred halftones were very cutting edge at the time.
A book about printing processes from 1917 mentions metal plates, but still has them being laid out by hand from transfers, so photographic reproduction wasn't being done on a large scale.
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  #326  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:39 AM
SetBuilder SetBuilder is offline
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
A few comments on a couple points.

T206s are lithographed for sure. Other types of printing come across a lot differently.
There are two main sorts of lithography, direct and offset.
Both use either a specially prepared block of limestone, or a plate that can retain water. Commercially, the plates have been mostly metal for around a century. But a "lithograph" plate can be paper. In fact you can make a lithograph at home using some porous paper, a crayon, a brayer and some oil based ink. (Getting it to come out any good isn't all that easy)

T206s were not done with a modern CMYK process. The typically quoted thing is six colors, but it's usually more like 8, possibly more.

Recess printing is essentially like Intaglio, and the result is much different than lithography. Feel a new banknote, you'll be able to feel the raised in since it mostly sits on top of the paper.

The multi color press shown doesn't appear to be an offset lithography press, as the inked rollers are shown printing directly to the paper.

The stones were heavy, and had to be laid out by hand from transfers. Making them and resurfacing them was a specialty, and making a stone cylinder with the proper surface would be harder and more expensive. I've never heard of a press that printed from a stone cylinder.

Here's a small shop from around 1917. The big press on the left is a flatbed lithographic press, the small ones center and right are letter press presses.

ALC was a huge company, and owned a wide range of presses. They were also pretty tight with RS Hoe company that made presses. (Not that a place like ALC wouldn't be on great terms with a few press makers. ) Hoe had web fed typographic presses - a totally different process- in the 1800s that were used to print newspapers. They also had web fed presses, but none of their literature that I've found mentions web feed combined with lithography.
They also in around 1910 sued a couple guys who had sold them on a photographic way of making lithographic plates, which apparently turned out to be a scam as the process didn't work and never would. And was also "sold" to other companies as far away as England. So photographically transferred halftones were very cutting edge at the time.
A book about printing processes from 1917 mentions metal plates, but still has them being laid out by hand from transfers, so photographic reproduction wasn't being done on a large scale.
Steve,

That shop in the photo looks like an old school Kinkos store instead of a large operation.

ALC was a large sophisticated operation with rotary machines. They had to be. T206 cards alone were printed in the millions. Let's say 300 million cards were printed, at 34 cards per sheet, that's 8.8mm+ sheets. Plus all the other stuff they printed. I doubt that the press was anything other than a modern offset litho press with durable metal plates.

The technology was available at the time. My guess by looking at the T206 cards under magnification is that a half-tone screen was placed over the silhouette of the player on the printing plate. Think of it like a screen door on a frame with a stylus. The engraver would press down on the screen lightly for half-tones and press down harder for shadows. The underside of the mesh was inked, which was to be the acid resist for the relief engraving.





This was very simple technology so I'm not sure how Knapp was fooled.

Here, read through this blog and all the sections. I think you will enjoy it.

Last edited by SetBuilder; 06-27-2018 at 08:40 AM.
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  #327  
Old 06-27-2018, 10:21 AM
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Is it possible the backs were printed in bulk and then the fronts were printed as needed? There’s no “personalization” on the back that would necessitate that back and front be printed together or need to stay together (unlike the T205 which had fronts that had to stay with backs due to the bios/stats).


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Old 06-27-2018, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
Steve,

That shop in the photo looks like an old school Kinkos store instead of a large operation.

ALC was a large sophisticated operation with rotary machines. They had to be. T206 cards alone were printed in the millions. Let's say 300 million cards were printed, at 34 cards per sheet, that's 8.8mm+ sheets. Plus all the other stuff they printed. I doubt that the press was anything other than a modern offset litho press with durable metal plates.

The technology was available at the time. My guess by looking at the T206 cards under magnification is that a half-tone screen was placed over the silhouette of the player on the printing plate. Think of it like a screen door on a frame with a stylus. The engraver would press down on the screen lightly for half-tones and press down harder for shadows. The underside of the mesh was inked, which was to be the acid resist for the relief engraving.





This was very simple technology so I'm not sure how Knapp was fooled.

Here, read through this blog and all the sections. I think you will enjoy it.
I think there was way more than 34 cards on all of the T206 sheets.

here's one that using the plate scratches makes it at the least 240 cards.
https://imageevent.com/patrickr/upda...=Sheet%203.jpg
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  #329  
Old 06-28-2018, 11:48 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
Steve,

That shop in the photo looks like an old school Kinkos store instead of a large operation.

ALC was a large sophisticated operation with rotary machines. They had to be. T206 cards alone were printed in the millions. Let's say 300 million cards were printed, at 34 cards per sheet, that's 8.8mm+ sheets. Plus all the other stuff they printed. I doubt that the press was anything other than a modern offset litho press with durable metal plates.

The technology was available at the time. My guess by looking at the T206 cards under magnification is that a half-tone screen was placed over the silhouette of the player on the printing plate. Think of it like a screen door on a frame with a stylus. The engraver would press down on the screen lightly for half-tones and press down harder for shadows. The underside of the mesh was inked, which was to be the acid resist for the relief engraving.





This was very simple technology so I'm not sure how Knapp was fooled.

Here, read through this blog and all the sections. I think you will enjoy it.
That may be how the master for a particular color was made.

The actual plates/stones were probably laid out with transfers printed from the masters. If they weren't, each position on the sheet would have a slightly different halftone. There are very few differences in the halftone areas, and the ones I've seen are usually in different series.

ALC was indeed huge, and would have had a wide variety of presses. The shop I worked at was fairly small, but did do one job while I was there that was for about 1.5 million bank deposit slips. We didn't have high speed anything, all sheetfed presses. Start to finish was under a month, and If I remember it right the job was in the pressroom for only 3-4 days. From what I've been able to find, the rate we could print at was only about 4-5x the speed of a flatbed press.
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  #330  
Old 06-28-2018, 11:55 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by Big Six View Post
Is it possible the backs were printed in bulk and then the fronts were printed as needed? There’s no “personalization” on the back that would necessitate that back and front be printed together or need to stay together (unlike the T205 which had fronts that had to stay with backs due to the bios/stats).


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That's an interesting thought Matt.

I think it's possible that was done for the more popular brands. Piedmont and SC, maybe not for other brands. Running the job on multiple presses would make sense for the sort of production Piedmont required.

The existing evidence suggests that it wasn't done.
We have no examples of blank fronts, or of other cards with a T206 back.
We do have a decent number of blank backs, and cards with multiple things printed on the back of the card.
So we can say that fronts were certainly printed on stock that hadn't had backs printed yet. But without a surviving example or something else like a workers diary or company documents, the opposite isn't certain.
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