Getting Auction LOAs upgraded to full cert - I know its been discussed before

[markf31]

I searched the forum and found a previous thread regarding Auction LOAs and so I know most people's opinions of them on here already. But has anyone ever submitted an item with an Auction LOA for a full authentication and had it fail full authenticity? I'm looking into an item with an Auction LOA from both PSA and JSA. The Auction LOAs were from an auction that took place in 2008 and I know/understand that there were limits on how long the Auction LOA could be "upgraded" to a full authentication, but my concern is with the chance that it could fail full authentication.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by markf31

I searched the forum and found a previous thread regarding Auction LOAs and so I know most people's opinions of them on here already. But has anyone ever submitted an item with an Auction LOA for a full authentication and had it fail full authenticity? I'm looking into an item with an Auction LOA from both PSA and JSA. The Auction LOAs were from an auction that took place in 2008 and I know/understand that there were limits on how long the Auction LOA could be "upgraded" to a full authentication, but my concern is with the chance that it could fail full authentication.

you have about 30 days to upgrade it after the auction. it's a waste of time though.


but to answer your question, yes, an item that had an auction loa could very well fail authentication. its because their opinion changes with the wind.

some people use their auction loa in place of a full loa. it doesnt make any difference. the reason they make an auction loa in the first place is to get you to pay twice. you pay th higher price at auction that an loa'd item will bring, bu then when you get the item, you find out it doesnt have a "full" loa. so they sock you again for the full loa fee.

[JimStinson]

There is the auction cert , then the upgrade auction cert for just a few dollars more , then the super duper AAA+ VIP cert which costs more but what the heck you only live once, THEN the USDA approved ultimate zircon encrusted gold cert....and of course the best one of all is the platinum cert which Ed McMahon delivers to your house with a limo and ballons
______________________
Vintage autographs offered Daily
stinsonsports.com

[JimStinson]

Opps Ed McMahon WOULD have delivered the Platinum COA but he has already been "slabbed"

[travrosty]

jsa offers the super duper coa starting at 500 dollars, boy that's worth it.

[Big Dave]

Ed McMahon already.... slabbed ......good one.

Had a Mantle item that I actually was the auction winner for and it came with a JSA auction letter. Sent it in promptly ...... they failed it. Kept my money and gave me a credit. The auction house refunded my money and swore JSA examined that item thoroughly because some other items front the consignor had problems. Said JSA actually examined it about three times before passing it.

[drc]

I believe the platinum PSA/DNA LOA has an Alex Rodriguez event worn jersey swatch on it.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by drc

I believe the platinum PSA/DNA LOA has an Alex Rodriguez event worn jersey swatch on it.

That's the "Performance Enhanced PSA/DNA LOA"

[Plinvestments]

Psa guarantees that pre-certified items will pass full cert. you have 60 days to get the discounted price, but it will pass even if you wait longer.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Psa guarantees that pre-certified items will pass full cert. you have 60 days to get the discounted price, but it will pass even if you wait longer.

Thanks for the information, it was hard to locate amongst all the sarcasm in the thread!

[JimStinson]

The sarcasm was in jest, but if you think about it would the average consumer tolerate the same concept in everyday life.
For example I take my car to the mechanic and when I pick it up and pay the bill he tells me,
"Jim I really did not do the work on your car to the best of my ability even though I was paid to do so, But if you would like to bring it back in 30 days I will do the job correctly even though it will cost you more, NEXT time I'll give it my full attention"
or in a restauant , the waitress says when she brings you your meal.
"The chef was very busy today, and your meal was prepared quickly and you might even get sick eating it but if you'll bring back your reciept next time you eat here and hand the chef a $20.00 in addition to the price already on the menu he'll make absolutely certain he gets it right next time"

[markf31]

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation? What if the doctor saw nothing wrong in the x-ray, but determines that you infact suffered a ligament strain or damage, something he determined with the office visit but was unable to determine in the x-ray? Do you expect him to offer you a partial refund because his first opinion was inaccurate?

[JimStinson]

Good point ! but medicine is a SCIENCE based on facts, Like gravity and inarguable laws. I hope before a doctor cuts me open, hacks off a limb or pronounces me dead .....That he has a little more to go on than a "Vague notion" or an opinion or hunch

[drc]

I agree that if you want the full LOA, if merely to have a fancy piece of paper, PSA is going to charge you. That's the way all businesses work. The collector isn't required to get the full LOA if he doesn't want it. It's his choice. And, better than the radiologist, the charges are stated up front.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by markf31

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation?

On second thought its not a good point (smile) because the doctor THE FIRST TIME has all the tools at his disposal (or should have) to determine the condition including the original X-RAYS ! And specialist IN-HOUSE when he advertised (or sold) his service the first time. The only way this would not apply is if the actual medical condition would change over time. I have never ever one time in my life seen an autograph "Morph" or "evolve" while sitting on the shelf. In fact it will look the exact same next year as it does today.

[travrosty]

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Good point ! but medicine is a SCIENCE based on facts, Like gravity and inarguable laws. I hope before a doctor cuts me open, hacks off a limb or pronounces me dead .....That he has a little more to go on than a "Vague notion" or an opinion or hunch

Its not an exact science. You can goto multiple doctors and get mutiple opinions on what can be wrong with you, sometimes these opinions can be glaringly different.

If you follow hockey look at the Sidney Crosby saga. Team doctors and even 2nd opinion doctors said he suffered a concussion and concussion related symptoms. A last resort specialist in Florida concluded that Crosby infact suffered a neck injury that was causing his concussion like symptons. There is a reason why they call it a 2nd, or 3rd opinion in the medical field.

[JimStinson]

A weather man should not need to look out the window 20 times to tell you if its raining outside. It either is or it isn't.
It its raining and he tells you it IS thats a FACT ! which means take a snapshot of it and it will still be a picture of a rainy day 100 years from now. If he THINKS it might rain thats an opinion.
If he tells you its not raining and you can clearly see it IS , he is no longer a weatherman he is called something else

[drc]

Your theory is all wet, Jim Rewrite it and I might upgrade it to partly cloudy.

[JimStinson]

[JimStinson]

I guess ultimately its "perception" of value and if getting multiple opinions and paying over and over for the same thing makes someone happy...why "rain on their parade"
________________________
Vintage Autographs For Sale Daily
stinsonsports.com

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by markf31

I know it was in jest.

Those examples aren’t really relevant to this argument. Here's a real life situation comparing more apples to apples as far as circumstances and level of service go. You have x-rays taken and sent to a specialist doctor. The specialist doctor examines the x-rays. The doctors says he'd like to see you in person for a more thorough and complete examination, to make some determinations he maybe can’t quite make just by looking at the x-ray. Guess what, he will be charging you for the x-ray evaluation, and additionally he will be charging you more for an in person office examination and visit. Do you expect the doctor to not charge you for the x-ray evaluation? Or do you expect him to discount the office visit because he already charged you for the x-ray evaluation? What if the doctor saw nothing wrong in the x-ray, but determines that you infact suffered a ligament strain or damage, something he determined with the office visit but was unable to determine in the x-ray? Do you expect him to offer you a partial refund because his first opinion was inaccurate?

Mark,
I'm sorry this example doesn't happen in real life.
As a physician, I can clearly state that there is no situation where a doctor will look at an xray and offer an opinion, that he will get paid for, without seeing the patient first.

In your example, X-rays are "taken". Who ordered them? The ER, family doctor, or specialist. If the ER or Family Doc orders the x-ray, it is secondary to a visit where the patient has been examined first and has been determined to need the test. The family doc will charge you for the visit. In ER, the physician will charge you for their services and the hospital will also charge for use of the facility. The ER and Family docs will not charge to read the x-ray. Neither of them will charge you an "X-ray evaluation" fee. Now, in this example, a radiologist will charge you for the official interpretation of the x-ray. That doctor will not have seen you or offered any opinion as to the nature of your injury. He/She will only opine on what the picture shows.

Now, if the ER or family physicians still feel your injury is somehow unclear or requiring further care, they may send you to see a specialist. That specialist will examine you and review the x-rays previously taken. They will charge you for that evaluation, which includes reviewing all related data from tests done previously, but will not charge again to read the x-ray.

As your example doesn't fit, I do think Jim's two prior examples do exactly fit this situation. You are paying twice for the same service.

In my mind the auction LOAs are a money making scam. They increase the final auction prices realized by increasing bidder confidence, and then increase revenue for the TPA, by incentivising further payment for a "full" LOA.

IMHO,
Mark Vel@rde

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

jsa and psa admit that an auction loa is a cursory review, a quick glance, we looked at it from a moving car going 85 miles an hour and as we whizzed past, we saw something maybe that made us think this might be good. now pay us more and we will do our jobs. They use weasel words to get them off the hook, saying that it is a preliminary cursory review, but as jim said, does the autograph change? why cant they take a good look at it and figure it out at that time? why guess? they are admitting it is a a guesstimate.

PSA has changed their policy. All auction pre-certified items are now guaranteed and they can't weasel out of it.

I also don't find the comparisons to mechanics or doctors to be true. Nobody is paying multiple times for the same opinion. The original opinion is paid by the seller or auction house, and believe me, I don't believe Heritage or any other auctioneer pays very much. They are offering this as a service.

If the auction winner decides he wants a full cert, he can pay for one like any other un-certified piece he buys. He's paying once. Auction buyers are very savvy. The only ones really hurt by high buyer's premiums, shipping fees, authentication fees, etc are the sellers. All of this is priced in in the bidding price. Look at the hammer prices for common auction items and you will see this bear out over and over again.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

PSA has changed their policy. All auction pre-certified items are now guaranteed and they can't weasel out of it.

I also don't find the comparisons to mechanics or doctors to be true. Nobody is paying multiple times for the same opinion. The original opinion is paid by the seller or auction house, and believe me, I don't believe Heritage or any other auctioneer pays very much. They are offering this as a service.

If the auction winner decides he wants a full cert, he can pay for one like any other un-certified piece he buys. He's paying once. Auction buyers are very savvy. The only ones really hurt by high buyer's premiums, shipping fees, authentication fees, etc are the sellers. All of this is priced in in the bidding price. Look at the hammer prices for common auction items and you will see this bear out over and over again.

Ok so now I'm confused.

What is PSA guaranteeing exactly? That all items precerted will pass?
This means
A) They are looking closely at the item prior to the auction and charging the auction house. Then, because it's "guaranteed" they don't really have to look at it when you send it in and pay more for the full cert. So they get paid twice for the same service.

B) They are giving it a cursory glance prior to auctioning and charging the auction house. Then they look at it in more detail when the buyer sends it in. Again, paid twice for the same service.

As far as the guarantee, doesn't it already work that way? If you buy something with an auction cert and it then fails full cert, the auction house will refund you for the item. So what extra are you getting by PSAs guarantee?

Lastly, of course, the buyer pays for both certifications. The exact reason may people use TPA's is the fact they believe the item will sell for more with a cert.
Choice 1...Dimaggio Mantle 8x10 without cert - $300
Choice 2...Same picture with PSA or JSA - $500-600.
The buyer is absolutely paying for the cost of the cert!

[Exhibitman]

That Mantle story sucks, Dave. FWIW, I do not believe that JSA or any merchant paid with a credit card could give you a credit instead of a refund if the item failed the full cert. The back of the JSA ALOA form clearly states that "In the rare event that our opinion differs from our original consultation with the auction house, no upgrade fee will be charged." If I got a credit and I wanted a refund, I would demand it and if JSA refused, dispute the charge.

As to why not have a full LOA up front, well, there are many answers to that one, but only one that counts: MONEY! The ALOA is a lot cheaper for the auctioneer to get and if the buyer wants the COA he needs to spend another $50 to 'upgrade' the ALOA to the full LOA. Everyone makes money, except the buyer, of course.

Another thing that infuriates me about the ALOA is that JSA has been refining the fine print to make the already feckless ALOA even less useful. I recently won some authographed items from Clean Sweep, with the JSA ALOAs on them. One item that I got had a JSA ALOA from 2008. The other one had a new ALOA. When comparing the fine print on the backs I noticed that the 2008 ALOA has no expiration date. You can hold it for years and not use it, then exercise the upgrade right when you decide to sell, or just pass the ALOA to the buyer as an ALOA that they can exercise or not as they choose. That seems fair to me. The new 'improved' ALOA expires in 45 days! I cannot tell you how pissed off I am to buy an 'authenticated' item that has an expiration date akin to a tub of yogurt unless I dump another $50 into it.

Which brings me to my next peevish pet peeve about the ALOA: Some auctioneers do not differentiate between a full LOA and the ALOA in their listings. They just say "JSA LOA" when they mean ALOA. It should be clearly and carefully disclosed. The ALOA thus lends itself to abusive sales tactics. I was pleasantly surprised recently to actually bid on an item with a full LOA from an AH. Unsurprisingly, it was from Lew Lipset, who runs an old-school honest operation. Funny story on that: I took the item to the JSA reps at the Glendale CA show in the spring and asked to have the PC encapsulated by SGC. JSA wanted $25 to do it. I asked SGC to do it directly and it costs $15.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Ok so now I'm confused.

What is PSA guaranteeing exactly? That all items precerted will pass?
This means
A) They are looking closely at the item prior to the auction and charging the auction house. Then, because it's "guaranteed" they don't really have to look at it when you send it in and pay more for the full cert. So they get paid twice for the same service.

B) They are giving it a cursory glance prior to auctioning and charging the auction house. Then they look at it in more detail when the buyer sends it in. Again, paid twice for the same service.

As far as the guarantee, doesn't it already work that way? If you buy something with an auction cert and it then fails full cert, the auction house will refund you for the item. So what extra are you getting by PSAs guarantee?

Lastly, of course, the buyer pays for both certifications. The exact reason may people use TPA's is the fact they believe the item will sell for more with a cert.
Choice 1...Dimaggio Mantle 8x10 without cert - $300
Choice 2...Same picture with PSA or JSA - $500-600.
The buyer is absolutely paying for the cost of the cert!

A) They ARE looking closely at the items pre-auction. They DON'T charge the auction house very much. Maybe just enough to cover expenses. Its a good marketing play for them and the auction house. PSA knows that the auction houses wouldn't pay them for a full cert. A Mantle costs $100 to cert. Even with a dealer discount, no auction house will pay $50 or $75. PSA offers to do a pre-cert for a nominal fee, and hope that the end buyer pays for a full cert. I don't know what the sell-through is - 20%? 50%? 70%? Even at 10%, this would be very profitable for PSA.

B) Because the item is not a full LOA, the lots don't sell for that kind of premium. Here's an example, PSA cut Mantle Autos have sold on Ebay over the last 90 days for as low as $250 but on average, they go for about $300-$350. Several Mantle examples have sold at auction for a fraction of that. With buyers premium, a 4x6 postcard sold for $120, a lot of 2 8x10's sold for $448, a cut and a signed print went for $239. I didn't cherry pick auctions. This is the norm. These items were pre-certified which means they are guaranteed a PSA LOA if you pay. The benefit of an auction pre-cert to the buyer is that you can be assured of a passing TPA, get a discount on the fee, and pay non-TPA prices for items.

C) Here is the text from PSA website:

"A PSA/DNA Pre-Certified lot is one that has been reviewed by PSA/DNA autograph experts. The winning bidder of any lot that contains this special designation will be eligible for a substantial discount if they choose to submit the autographs directly to PSA/DNA. To take advantage of this special offer, the items must be submitted within 60 days of the auction close with receipt or proof of purchase from the auction house. The rate chart for Pre-Certified lots can be found on www.psadna.com under List of Services.

This service was designed to notify potential bidders that the autographed lot in question will pass PSA/DNA if they choose to submit the item for authentication immediately following the auction. Not only will the winning bidder be eligible for a substantial discount, they will also receive all of the benefits that full authentication provides (noted above)."

[travrosty]

psa doesnt guarantee a precerted item will get a cert, sure they say it, but if they get the item in and change their mind, they will fail it. they have no guarantee, they expressly say on their website that any autograph authentication that they do is an opinion, and no guarantee is in effect.

whats the guarantee? when they say precert WILL pass full authentication? they don't say what the guarantee entails because there is no guarantee. read again, psa has no guarantee. they have never had a guarantee.

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!


its not surgery or x rays, its an autograph, and to say you didnt do a competent thorough job the first time around, but you will if someone ponies up, stinks.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

psa doesnt guarantee a precerted item will get a cert, sure they say it, but if they get the item in and change their mind, they will fail it. they have no guarantee, they expressly say on their website that any autograph authentication that they do is an opinion, and no guarantee is in effect.

whats the guarantee? when they say precert WILL pass full authentication? they don't say what the guarantee entails because there is no guarantee. read again, psa has no guarantee. they have never had a guarantee.

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!


its not surgery or x rays, its an autograph, and to say you didnt do a competent thorough job the first time around, but you will if someone ponies up, stinks.

Actually, they use the word "Guarantee" on the website. I have seen people bring in pre-certified items at shows. It doesn't even make it to the authenticators. The girls put stickers on the items. Below from psa website:

PSA/DNA Pre-Certified
As a hobbyist, you may see the PSA/DNA Pre-Certified logo in various auction house catalogues or online. It is a service unique to auctions and to autographs found within. The purpose of the service is to let the prospective bidders know whether an autographed auction item will pass PSA/DNA should that person win the item and want to send it in for authentication immediately after the auction closes. If you see the Pre-Certified logo, it means the item has been reviewed by our experts and is absolutely guaranteed to pass.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by travrosty

You have to pay more than once because the first time you 'pay' is when you compete with other bidders at auction who think the psa or jsa auction loa means something, so the price goes higher, because they think they are getting a certed item. but lo and behold, switcheroo, you didnt get what you thought you were getting, you have to pay AGAIN! stinks!

I thought I remember you always arguing that a TPA adds nothing to the selling price of autographs, and now I read this.

Which way is it?

Or does it change depending on which argument you are trying to make?

Just wondering,

Mike

[sports-rings]

I think that we need to hold the auction houses more responsible. We are spending a lot of money to win these auctions and I feel the auction houses should make every effort to make sure the signature, or any item they sell is authentic. Why should auction houses take a questionable item and put it in an auction? The better auction houses like Robert Edward and Lelands have a solid reputation and make every effort to make sure the items in their auctions are sound. It's their reputation at stake and auction houses that give it a "once over" need to make a better effort. Yes, I realize JSA and PSA make errors, but when in doubt, the auction houses should pay for a full JSA or PSA certificate. They will in all probability make the small cost back in greater prices realized.

[RichardSimon]

Robert Edward uses TPA's but Lelands does not. And personally I trust Mike Hefner and Josh Evans autograph opinions over the alphabet TPA's any day of the week.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Robert Edward uses TPA's but Lelands does not. And personally I trust Mike Hefner and Josh Evans autograph opinions over the alphabet TPA's any day of the week.

Is richard bond still at leland's? He is one of the best.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

Is richard bond still at leland's? He is one of the best.

He has not been with Leland's for years.
Last I heard he was an independent autograph dealer.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Robert Edward uses TPA's but Lelands does not. And personally I trust Mike Hefner and Josh Evans autograph opinions over the alphabet TPA's any day of the week.

yes, plus they are very responsive if you have a concern, they don't look down on you as an inconvenience.

[Exhibitman]

I was very pleased to get a full LOA from Lipset, as noted above. Regardless of one's views on TPAs in general, I appreciated the effort to give the customer the benefit. Also kinda sad that I was pleased to get what every AH should be giving me without equivocation when I buy an expensive autograph.

One thing my wife often says about gifts applies to ALOAs: Don't give me a project as a gift; it isn't. Getting the 'privilege' of sending an item to a TPA for a fee is not a gift...