Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Clemente is not and has never really been considered the “big 3” with Mays and Aaron. If anything someone like Frank Robinson would be more the person that should be in that conversation, and even he doesn’t measure up to those two (but does have superior statistics than Clemente). I like Clemente but he was no Mays or Aaron.

Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered.


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[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered.


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I don’t really disagree that Clemente and Frank Robinson are fairly similar in value to their team. I personally would have much rather had Robinson on my team but my point was Clemente was a completely different type of player than Mays and Aaron, Robinson was more similar to them just without the overall statistics to measure up.

I like Clemente a lot but he was not Mays or Aaron and very few people in their time thought he was in that conversation. He was a great person and worthy of his fame, but like some other people in other walks of like the fact that he was taken before his time makes him feel more legendary than he perhaps was.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I don’t really disagree that Clemente and Frank Robinson are fairly similar in value to their team. I personally would have much rather had Robinson on my team but my point was Clemente was a completely different type of player than Mays and Aaron, Robinson was more similar to them just without the overall statistics to measure up.

I like Clemente a lot but he was not Mays or Aaron and very few people in their time thought he was in that conversation. He was a great person and worthy of his fame, but like some other people in other walks of like the fact that he was taken before his time makes him feel more legendary than he perhaps was.

I think the reason he may have been mentioned in the same breath was his being the "third" outfielder of the 1960's in the National League. When you look at all star game starters (a good "old school" metric to see where people ranked "back in the day") during the 1960's, Mays started eight times, Aaron seven, and Clemente five. The only other NL outfielder with multiple appearances as a starter was Tommy Davis with two.

So I think that is the reason he would be mentioned with those two.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I think the reason he may have been mentioned in the same breath was his being the "third" outfielder of the 1960's in the National League. When you look at all star game starters (a good "old school" metric to see where people ranked "back in the day") during the 1960's, Mays started eight times, Aaron seven, and Clemente five. The only other NL outfielder with multiple appearances as a starter was Tommy Davis with two.

So I think that is the reason he would be mentioned with those two.

In that context I can see the argument.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On Base Percentage

Frank Robinson – .389 images
Roberto Clemente – .359

Slugging Percentage

Frank Robinson – .537 images
Roberto Clemente – .475

OPS (On-Base + Slugging Percentage)

Frank Robinson – .926 images
Roberto Clemente – .834

Home Runs

Frank Robinson – 586 images
Roberto Clemente – 240

RBIs

Frank Robinson – 1,812 images
Roberto Clemente – 1,305

[btcarfagno]

Frank Robinson is vastly underappreciated. That said, his WAR per game and WAR per inning is lower than Clemente.

Personally I would take Robinson because I just value offense over defense that much.

[tedzan]

TRIVIA QUIZ

What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
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[nolemmings]

I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit, but that may be because of some early memories being burned into me for life.

I recall 1966 as a very young boy, and what he did to the American League that year seemed unearthly. I was starting to get into my hometown Twins, and my favorite player on that team, Tony Oliva, who had just won the AL batting crown his first two seasons. Frank Robinson beat him by 9 points, and I don't remember it being that close, although they were the only two (I think) to hit .300. The local slugger Killebrew finished second to Robby in HR-- ten behind. As it turned out, Robby not only won the triple crown, he led the league in runs scored by 23 and in slugging pct by 99 points! He then won World Series MVP by beating Drysdale twice and going 1 for 2 (triple) off of Koufax in the four-game sweep. Just truly seemed like he was in a league of his own.

He also was a very underrated baserunner and a smart player overall. I wonder if he lacked a bit of popularity because he split his career about evenly in each league at a time when each had its own devoted fans that didn't fully appreciate what he had done in the other circuit because they didn't follow it as closely. Anyway, he has always been one of my favorite players, although begrudgingly so when he beat my guys back in the day.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit. . ..

Totally agree.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered.

Yes, but Clemente played a lot less games per year. Robinson should get credit for taking the field more often.

That said as a nine year old baseball fan in 1971, what Clemente did in the 1971 WS (hitting, running, fielding and of course his arm) and how he did it (duende) was simply amazing. After that he was one of my favorites