1914 CJ Joe Jackson PSA 2 to SGC 5

[Bicem]

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Definitely the same card.

If it's the same card, then why is that upper right corner so much rounder in the SGC 5 example?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

The population of slabbed cards is a combination of clean cards and (reasonably) well-doctored cards.

The population of unslabbed cards is a combination of clean cards and poorly doctored cards.

So it seems, as long as you're at least as good at detecting alterations as the graders are, as seems to apply to an increasingly large proportion of Net54 members, that it's safer to buy raw since the altered ones will be fairly obvious.

Maybe I can sneak some of these past the TPG's. I guess I have been ahead of this grading curve for decades.

Brian

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by robw1959

If it's the same card, then why is that upper right corner so much rounder in the SGC 5 example?

I don't know, go ask Gary.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bicem

I don't know, go ask Gary.

Part of the deception. It's the same card, but if someone wants to deny it who really cares at this point.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

This is a good and relatively long-term solution. Maybe 25 years from now the counterfeits will be indistinguishable from the originals, but in the meantime we can still have fun.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by orly57

I know that there are a lot of guys who have some amazing ungraded cards. But isn’t it fair to say that if you are a TPG receiving a really nice 1914 Joe Jackson at this stage in the game, there is a 90% chance that the card has already been graded before, and the owner wasn’t happy with the grade and/or altered it? Wouldn’t they look at a card like that a bit more skeptically, and assume that at best, the owner wasn’t happy with the previous grade and broke open for a regrade? If I see a raw 1914 CJ JJ at a show, I can tell you that my first thought would be “no thanks. You either got an ‘A’ or the card presents much better than the grade you got and didn’t like.”

+1000! When a 1914 CJ Joe Jackson comes, especially a pretty one in the year 2019, this card should get the attention of multiple and the best graders the TPG has to offer. If not for the reasons Orlando stated, how about the fact that it costs a small shit-ton to grade a card like this and the submitter paid for the right to have the best eyes on the card. Honestly, it’s robbery or negligence or both (in the lay sense), that a card of this ilk, costing so much to grade, gets through SGC and a guy on blowout forum catches it.

SGC, you messed up REAL bad here, and proves all this is less likely TPG fraud than just utter and total incompetence

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The 5 was graded at the National according to Brent.

Dealers race to the TPG booths on the early set up day of the National! Why? Because they have a light staff and they want to take advantage of the one day turn around at the National promo price! Not to mention, the grader behind the curtain is most likely one of the new kids working for them where they are taught to spend 30 seconds or less to grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Dealers race to the TPG booths on the early set up day of the National! Why? Because they have a light staff and they want to take advantage of the one day turn around at the National promo price! Not to mention, the grader behind the curtain is most likely one of the new kids working for them where they are taught to spend 30 seconds or less to grade.

The Leaf Jackie we have seen also was graded at the National and at least a couple of the others identified on BO.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+1000! When a 1914 CJ Joe Jackson comes, especially a pretty one in the year 2019, this card should get the attention of multiple and the best graders the TPG has to offer. If not for the reasons Orlando stated, how about the fact that it costs a small shit-ton to grade a card like this and the submitter paid for the right to have the best eyes on the card. Honestly, it’s robbery or negligence or both (in the lay sense), that a card of this ilk, costing so much to grade, gets through SGC and a guy on blowout forum catches it.

SGC, you messed up REAL bad here, and proves all this is less likely TPG fraud than just utter and total incompetence

The listing said the card was graded at last year's national. I'm sure every SGC employee at the show saw the card. So either they chose to ignore any signs the card was altered, the alteration was done so well as to not leave a detectable trace behind using whatever method they use, or it's not the same card.

My guess, assuming it is the same card, is that whatever is being done to these cards isn't leaving much behind to detect.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The listing said the card was graded at last year's national. I'm sure every SGC employee at the show saw the card. So either they chose to ignore any signs the card was altered, the alteration was done so well as to not leave a detectable trace behind using whatever method they use, or it's not the same card.

My guess, assuming it is the same card, is that whatever is being done to these cards isn't leaving much behind to detect.

Maybe, although I'm guessing that card -- given the disparity in values these days between holders -- made a trip to PSA first.

[Bored5000]

That Shoeless Joe card was a $22,000 card before work was done on it -- and posters in the Musial thread on here were seriously trying to claim that no one would have the balls to alter a $3,000 card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

That Shoeless Joe card was a $22,000 card before work was done on it -- and posters in the Musial thread on here were seriously trying to claim that no one would have the balls to alter a $3,000 card?

Yah when you've made millions 22K is just a wager you can well afford to lose.

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

I love this idea. Will probably never happen but I for one would be fully on board.

[ullmandds]

In the past...when speaking to people who are not in tune to this hobby who may be pickers...estate liquidators...pawn shop owners...buyers/sellers of silver/gold, etc. These people almost always felt that if PSA says this...or that...then it's fact.

And these people helped to cause the surge in valuations of many cards.

Now and in the near future when all these lay-people hear that PSA as well as the other TPG'ers cannot even tell if a card has been altered...that will eliminate many from even participating in the hobby.

Prices will plummet...investors will run for the hills. When it's all said and done all that will be left are the collectors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

I love this idea. Will probably never happen but I for one would be fully on board.

I think David Hall rightly understood on day 1 the market potential for grading not just authenticating. And ironically, they may be better at grading than authenticating at this point.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Barry--Please convince Corey of this. I'd like to save him this heartache and buy a few of his cards before they become worthless. I know I'm crazy, but it would be helping a friend out.

Most of Corey's cards aren't even graded.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

They're no dummies though. They have set up their products for obsolescence and subsequent resubmissions any number of times. If I were a betting man I would bet the announcement of photo grading isn't that far in the future.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think David Hall rightly understood on day 1 the market potential for grading not just authenticating. And ironically, they may be better at grading than authenticating at this point.

Even if just assigning an Authentic or not opinion without regard to alteration? At least this way people can be more reassured of not buying reprints.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Even if just assigning an Authentic or not opinion without regard to alteration? At least this way people can be more reassured of not buying reprints.

Fair enough, I haven't seen any evidence that they're regularly being fooled by counterfeits, but as has been alluded to, that day may be coming too.

As an aside I get it, but authentic and altered always sounded like an oxymoron to me.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Most of Corey's cards aren't even graded.

But most scarce ungraded cards are valued based on the estimated grade they would receive. If the graded card market collapses so will these. I’m here for him, Barry. Consider me a beacon in the fog.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

But most scarce ungraded cards are valued based on the estimated grade they would receive. If the graded card market collapses so will these. I’m here for him, Barry. Consider me a beacon in the fog.

I am sure Corey is there for you too, Jay.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

SGC, you messed up REAL bad here, and proves all this is less likely TPG fraud than just utter and total incompetence

Pretty sad state when it feels like this is the best-case outcome for thr TPGs.

"Hey, look at us, we're not complicit, just completely incompetent."

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Graders should just move to a system where it's slabbed as authentic or it's rejected as a fake. Buyers can then just decide on their own how much to pay for the condition/presentation of the card without the grading company opinion on that aspect.

You should then see the huge price gaps for condition fall and the card doctors much less motivated.

I know it's a completely different collecting mindset, but one that can be just as rewarding and enjoyable. In the PSA slabbed photo world, photo type is identified but no mention of condition, alterations, etc. and photo collectors do not put large premiums on condition. Just look at the most expensive photo (to my knowledge) that's sold thus far...

Cobb

Jeff, not a bad idea...but I'd submit to you, how about these levels...

-Authentic (unaltered)
-Authentic (altered)
-Rejected (fake)

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Jeff, not a bad idea...but I'd submit to you, how about these levels...

-Authentic (unaltered)
-Authentic (altered)
-Rejected (fake)

Michael I was thinking the same thing with the Auth alt/unalt but how could we trust them to be able to discern that with all that’s going on.

[ullmandds]

i agree I like the 3 possibilities...but I also have little faith that they can determine.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i agree I like the 3 possibilities...but I also have little faith that they can determine.

Three possibilities means no Registry and less money. Not happening.

[1952boyntoncollector]

So what is the recourse. SGC should pay 60k back to the buyer? You guys tell me what should happen as apparently this is going on right now..

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Three possibilities means no Registry and less money. Not happening.

Yeah, only works if collectors give up all that nonsense and stop playing ball, really force PSA's hand.

And only Authentic or not, no faith in ability to detect alterations.

Won't happen, but this is a grading system I could get behind.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

So what is the recourse. SGC should pay 60k back to the buyer? You guys tell me what should happen as apparently this is going on right now..

If that's what their guarantee states, then yes.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Yeah, only works if collectors give up all that nonsense and stop playing ball, really force PSA's hand.

And only Authentic or not, no faith in ability to detect alterations.

Won't happen, but this is a grading system I could get behind.

We know it won't happen, but would be a good system.

Jeff- Faith in the TPG's is obviously in question in general these days...BUT, I do feel strongly, in this hypothetical situation, that you need to distinguish between Authentic 'Unaltered' & Authentic 'Altered', IMO.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If that's what their guarantee states, then yes.

actually, it is Guaranty

from the Bible (internet)

"Guaranty” is the undertaking of an action where one is answerable to another for the payment of a debt by a third person. It can be undertaken for the performance of some specific duty when the other miscarries it"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

actually, it is Guaranty

from the Bible (internet)

"Guaranty” is the undertaking of an action where one is answerable to another for the payment of a debt by a third person. It can be undertaken for the performance of some specific duty when the other miscarries it"

TPGs are not being asked to pay the debt of a third person. Guarantee is correct.

https://www.grammar.com/guarantee_vs._guaranty

[darwinbulldog]

He means that guaranty is the word they use in their name. They're quite emphatic about that. But yes, the arrangement under discussion here is a guarantee.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by swarmee

If that's what their guarantee states, then yes.

sounds like from the others posting on the thread they dont legally owe anything.. . so again what is the recourse for this buyer of this allegedly tainted card and 60k price difference...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

sounds like from the others posting on the thread they dont legally owe anything.. . so again what is the recourse for this buyer of this allegedly tainted card and 60k price difference...

You're a lawyer and you're relying on what anonymous non-lawyers are saying regarding a legal agreement?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You're a lawyer and you're relying on what anonymous non-lawyers are saying regarding a legal agreement?

Like to see a answer from someone, you think PSA should pay 60k to this buyer? This isnt a 2k card argument example. If PSA doesnt pay him 60k does he have a cause of action. How long should he wait for PSA to review the card...3 months?

If PSA wont pay him and he doesnt live in California and doesnt want to pay a lawyer because they are too expensive he should just eat the card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Like to see a answer from someone, you think PSA should pay 60k to this buyer? This isnt a 2k card argument example. If PSA doesnt pay him 60k does he have a cause of action. How long should he wait for PSA to review the card...3 months?

If PSA wont pay him and he doesnt live in California and doesnt want to pay a lawyer because they are too expensive he should just eat the card?

It's SGC, first of all, and second of all, he paid 80K for the card not 60. But more to the point, why are we even speculating about this when it just happened?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's SGC, first of all, and second of all, he paid 80K for the card not 60. But more to the point, why are we even speculating about this when it just happened?

There were other cards that were also high dollar that didnt just happen....we can stop talking about the 1000 dollars cards and why would someone pursue legal action because the value is too law to be worth it . My point is there are enough high dollar cards out there either individual or together in someones collection that it would be well worth a lawsuit whether in california or mars (much be a city named mars) if they were not satisfied on what they were offered.

You basically said that someone with a 80k card that the bought altered would be willing to wait 3 months to get a decision from a TPG because 'what choice do they have'

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Any chance 2 cards that came out of a box of cracker Jacks 100 years ago could have similar looking stains in the same spot? Maybe one shaped like something covered in caramel was pressed against it.

no dream weaver

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bicem

Even if just assigning an Authentic or not opinion without regard to alteration? At least this way people can be more reassured of not buying reprints.

because basic logic dictates: they are altered, therefore they are fake

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

There were other cards that were also high dollar that didnt just happen....we can stop talking about the 1000 dollars cards and why would someone pursue legal action because the value is too law to be worth it . My point is there are enough high dollar cards out there either individual or together in someones collection that it would be well worth a lawsuit whether in california or mars (much be a city named mars) if they were not satisfied on what they were offered.

You basically said that someone with a 80k card that the bought altered would be willing to wait 3 months to get a decision from a TPG because 'what choice do they have'

They would certainly have to wait a reasonable time before they could argue something like constructive refusal to honor the guarantee by virtue of delay.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

because basic logic dictates: they are altered, therefore they are fake

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by swarmee

So what are we paying them for? Maybe we need to start a Graded Card Submitter Support Group to try to stop this vicious cycle. It's like drug peddling and addiction.

How about a class action lawsuit. What would you think would be found through Discovery in PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC's files? Probably could ask for SEC files on Collector's Universe as well?

[Peter_Spaeth]

I can't recall which thread but I've explained at length why this situation isn't conducive to class action treatment.

As for the SEC, I can't imagine even if investigative files existed which is doubtful you would get them via a subpoena in a civil lawsuit to which the SEC is not a party. Too many issues there to list.

[2dueces]

Happily collecting beaters since the 80's.

[topcat61]

Well, if this card was bleached, a simple test under a black light will be able to pick it up. If that's the case, the grading company (SGC) and or both are in trouble. If I was the buyer, I'd contact a lawyer and the FBI.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They would certainly have to wait a reasonable time before they could argue something like constructive refusal to honor the guarantee by virtue of delay.

Whats a reasonable time? Seems like the buyer can submit the evidence of why the card was altered pretty easily and also what the card sold for and what it was bought for....3 months?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Whats a reasonable time? Seems like the buyer can submit the evidence of why the card was altered pretty easily and also what the card sold for and what it was bought for....3 months?

It would probably vary in my mind by card value. But in any event I would not be in any great rush, I would view litigation as a last resort in a case like this.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Happily collecting beaters since the 80's.

As opposed to some of the companies that have happily been beating collectors...