Why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF?

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by rats60

You don't really think this do you?

In 1935 at the Big 10 championships, Jesse Owens set the world record in the long jump with 8.13 meters. Unlike today, he didn'the only long jump, but also ran the 100, 220 and 220 hurdles. During 45 minutes he also set world records in the 220 and 220 hurdles and tied the world record in the 100.

At the 2012 Olympics, the longest qualifying jump was 8.11 meters and Owens 8.13 meters would have won the bronze in the finals. Who knows how much further Owens could jump if he didn't run sprints. However, there is no doubt Owens would be a world class track athlete today.

I was referring to his sprinting time .
Bolt would have beaten American Thomas Burke, the first gold medalist ever, by more nearly 20 meters, or over 60 feet. Jesse Owens? About 21 feet behind.a in 1913 and died in Arizona in 1980 was the most impressive athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long jump) and crushed the myth of Aryan supremacy in front of Hitler and the entire Nazi regime. One year before, at the 1935 Big Ten track, he managed to set three world records and tie another one in less than an hour.
Carl Lewis, also born in Alabama in 1961 was the first athlete to equal Owens record in a single Olympics: in 1984 he won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long Jump). He was able to win gold medals in 4 different Olympics, for a total of 9 golds in his carreer. During his career he set world records in 100m, 4x100m and 4x200m and he is still holding the world record for indoor long jump (established in 1984).
Usain Bolt, born in Sherwood Content (Jamaica) in 1986 is the first athlete ever to hold both 100m and 200m world records since fully automatic time measurement became mandatory in 1977. He is currently holding 3 world records (100m, 200m and 4x100m). He is the first athlete to win 6 golds medal in sprint (Carl Lewis won 5 in sprint and 4 in Long jump). Not only did he break records, but he did it by large margins. For example, in 2009 he broke his own world record of 100m (from 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I was referring to his sprinting time .
Bolt would have beaten American Thomas Burke, the first gold medalist ever, by more nearly 20 meters, or over 60 feet. Jesse Owens? About 21 feet behind.a in 1913 and died in Arizona in 1980 was the most impressive athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long jump) and crushed the myth of Aryan supremacy in front of Hitler and the entire Nazi regime. One year before, at the 1935 Big Ten track, he managed to set three world records and tie another one in less than an hour.
Carl Lewis, also born in Alabama in 1961 was the first athlete to equal Owens record in a single Olympics: in 1984 he won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long Jump). He was able to win gold medals in 4 different Olympics, for a total of 9 golds in his carreer. During his career he set world records in 100m, 4x100m and 4x200m and he is still holding the world record for indoor long jump (established in 1984).
Usain Bolt, born in Sherwood Content (Jamaica) in 1986 is the first athlete ever to hold both 100m and 200m world records since fully automatic time measurement became mandatory in 1977. He is currently holding 3 world records (100m, 200m and 4x100m). He is the first athlete to win 6 golds medal in sprint (Carl Lewis won 5 in sprint and 4 in Long jump). Not only did he break records, but he did it by large margins. For example, in 2009 he broke his own world record of 100m (from 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements).

Sprint times and track and field performances generally improve over time for a host of reasons. Take Usain Bolt at birth and project him back to the 1930s and he does not run these times, he is competing with Jesse Owens.

[bn2cardz]

Another interesting stat that sums up how good he was:

If you take the cumulative WAR/pos and divide by the number of years they played to get their WARpos average. Only 11 players have an average above 6, J.Robinson ranks 9th with a 6.15 .

Rk Name WARpos/years
1 Babe Ruth HOF 7.414
2 Willie Mays HOF 7.100
3 Lou Gehrig HOF 6.612
4 Ted Williams HOF 6.479
5 Ty Cobb HOF 6.292
6 Honus Wagner HOF 6.238
7 Hank Aaron HOF 6.200
8 Jackie Robinson HOF 6.150
9 Mickey Mantle HOF 6.094
10 Tris Speaker HOF 6.077
11 Joe DiMaggio HOF 6.008

...but of course if you want to stick with your "charity" argument because he didn't hit any of the 3 "magic number" milestones than nothing can convince you and aren't really interested in a real conversation.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sprint times and track and field performances generally improve over time for a host of reasons. Take Usain Bolt at birth and project him back to the 1930s and he does not run these times, he is competing with Jesse Owens.

Training, conditioning, coaching, performance monitoring, equipment, etc etc have changed, which gets to your point of either needing to grow up in the same era for comparison. Just as with any sport.

Although... since there was no global warming back in the '30s, Jesse's times might have been artificially quicker due to less friction from the cooler air.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tschock

Training, conditioning, coaching, performance monitoring, equipment, etc etc have changed, which gets to your point of either needing to grow up in the same era for comparison. Just as with any sport.

Although... since there was no global warming back in the '30s, Jesse's times might have been artificially quicker due to less friction from the cooler air.

Probably true for all sports, but IMO most true for track and field where the performance is objectively measured in terms of time, distance, or height and there is no element of subjectivity.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I was referring to his sprinting time .
Bolt would have beaten American Thomas Burke, the first gold medalist ever, by more nearly 20 meters, or over 60 feet. Jesse Owens? About 21 feet behind.a in 1913 and died in Arizona in 1980 was the most impressive athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long jump) and crushed the myth of Aryan supremacy in front of Hitler and the entire Nazi regime. One year before, at the 1935 Big Ten track, he managed to set three world records and tie another one in less than an hour.
Carl Lewis, also born in Alabama in 1961 was the first athlete to equal Owens record in a single Olympics: in 1984 he won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long Jump). He was able to win gold medals in 4 different Olympics, for a total of 9 golds in his carreer. During his career he set world records in 100m, 4x100m and 4x200m and he is still holding the world record for indoor long jump (established in 1984).
Usain Bolt, born in Sherwood Content (Jamaica) in 1986 is the first athlete ever to hold both 100m and 200m world records since fully automatic time measurement became mandatory in 1977. He is currently holding 3 world records (100m, 200m and 4x100m). He is the first athlete to win 6 golds medal in sprint (Carl Lewis won 5 in sprint and 4 in Long jump). Not only did he break records, but he did it by large margins. For example, in 2009 he broke his own world record of 100m (from 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements).

So in his weakest event he would be destroyed by the greatest sprinter of all time. Is anyone surprised by that? You said he couldn't compete. That is false. Don't you think today that an athlete would be competing in their strongest event and maybe not in weaker ones. Owens would be a long jumper for sure. If he couldn't keep up with sprinters, he would concentrate on the long jump. Carl Lewis is an exception, not the norm, and he would be destroyed by Bolt in the sprint too.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by rats60

So in his weakest event he would be destroyed by the greatest sprinter of all time. Is anyone surprised by that? You said he couldn't compete. That is false. Don't you think today that an athlete would be competing in their strongest event and maybe not in weaker ones. Owens would be a long jumper for sure. If he couldn't keep up with sprinters, he would concentrate on the long jump. Carl Lewis is an exception, not the norm, and he would be destroyed by Bolt in the sprint too.

yes I do . But I was only comparing the fact that at the time his weakest event made him the fastest man in the world. And when compared by today or the middle marks. He would not be elite. Jumping is another story .

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

I was referring to his sprinting time .
Bolt would have beaten American Thomas Burke, the first gold medalist ever, by more nearly 20 meters, or over 60 feet. Jesse Owens? About 21 feet behind.a in 1913 and died in Arizona in 1980 was the most impressive athlete in the 1936 Berlin Olympics. He won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long jump) and crushed the myth of Aryan supremacy in front of Hitler and the entire Nazi regime. One year before, at the 1935 Big Ten track, he managed to set three world records and tie another one in less than an hour.
Carl Lewis, also born in Alabama in 1961 was the first athlete to equal Owens record in a single Olympics: in 1984 he won 4 gold medals (100m, 200m, 4x100m and Long Jump). He was able to win gold medals in 4 different Olympics, for a total of 9 golds in his carreer. During his career he set world records in 100m, 4x100m and 4x200m and he is still holding the world record for indoor long jump (established in 1984).
Usain Bolt, born in Sherwood Content (Jamaica) in 1986 is the first athlete ever to hold both 100m and 200m world records since fully automatic time measurement became mandatory in 1977. He is currently holding 3 world records (100m, 200m and 4x100m). He is the first athlete to win 6 golds medal in sprint (Carl Lewis won 5 in sprint and 4 in Long jump). Not only did he break records, but he did it by large margins. For example, in 2009 he broke his own world record of 100m (from 9.69 to 9.58, the highest margin since the start of fully automatic time measurements).

That argument is a fallacious one. Human beings do not evolve over a few decades; the tools they have to work with did. You cannot take athletes out of historical context and compare them across eras because training, medicine and nutrition have evolved so dramatically over the decades. In 1924 it was frowned upon to allow professional coaches to train Olympic athletes and the athletes were not full time athletes. Medical techniques were primitive and nutritional concepts were laughably wrong. Today, elite athletes do nothing but train and have access to a coterie of professional trainers, consultants and coaches. Strip Bolt of all of the advances of the last 70-80 years and see where he is; he might very well be the fastest man alive but I do not think that he would have blown by Jessie Owens Secretariat style.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That argument is a fallacious one. Human beings do not evolve over a few decades; the tools they have to work with did. You cannot take athletes out of historical context and compare them across eras because training, medicine and nutrition have evolved so dramatically over the decades. In 1924 it was frowned upon to allow professional coaches to train Olympic athletes and the athletes were not full time athletes. Medical techniques were primitive and nutritional concepts were laughably wrong. Today, elite athletes do nothing but train and have access to a coterie of professional trainers, consultants and coaches. Strip Bolt of all of the advances of the last 70-80 years and see where he is; he might very well be the fastest man alive but I do not think that he would have blown by Jessie Owens Secretariat style.

I think this is the absolute truth and reality of the matter. But like everything else in life it's in degrees. Look at old school boxers Jack Dempsey train like a beast and believe in it . He ate well with a lot of protein. I have no doubt that Dempsey would still be a world class champion today . Even with the same training and technics.

The Olympics do not put asterisks when the record is broke 5year from now. There is no statement saying well he train better. Or due to modern advance in sports science he won the gold. They keep the times and records for this reason. So we can compare and know who is the best. Not so we can say well if this or that. Whatever the reason is evolution , food,training,water quietly etc. the fact is the current record hold is better.