Gone with the stain. Dick Towle

[atx840]

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

That would suck, Chris...a lot of good buddies here on the board would be very bummed out if that happened as they collect very high end cards. Just not sure it's worth the crash of that part of our hobby to do so.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by atx840

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

I've heard a few similar statements such as yours. However, your statement is based on your own personal feelings. It infers that the next owner of a "cleaned" card would care as much as you do. What if that next owner doesn't care that their card was "cleaned" by a previous owner? It's a fact, just from reading this thread, that some people don't care (as long as there is no detectable evidence).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

[rainier2004]

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".

"Character is built when no one is looking"

Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

My problem is with the disclosure, pretty rare to see a card advertised and "cleaned".



"Character is built when no one is looking"



Just b/c its undetectable does not make it ethical. When I buy my cards I expect them to be unrestored and unaltered, I believe that 99.9% of my cards follow these rules. It is impossible to know the provenance to all your cards, that still doesn't make it ok for someone to restore it and sell it w/o disclosure. I am very surprised how many are ok with this...

And just because it's detectable doesn't make it unethical. So it seems like a good deal of people are on both sides of the fence...so who actually makes the call on ethics here?

Ok, so some people believe that by cleaning a card, you take it out of it's natural state. How about all of the chemicals that every t-card absorbed when they were around cigarette smoke or maybe inside the package before opened? I mean, which chemicals are we going to allow? I think we have to put the ethics debate on hold until we actually know what we are talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

And just because it's detectable doesn't make it unethical. So it seems like a good deal of people are on both sides of the fence...so who actually makes the call on ethics here?

I was hoping Wonka's post would get that question discussed, but it didn't, so I'll discuss it with myself. Unfortunately, it seems to be PSA's call. They said they wouldn't put a number on a trimmed card, so the Gretzky Wagner eventually landed people in prison. If they were to say they wouldn't slab cards treated with chemicals, then something similar could occur. If PSA says they will assign numeric grades to such 'chemical' cards, and won't indicate the chemical component, then deception (and thus, ethics) become a moot point, at least legally.

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Ok, so some people believe that by cleaning a card, you take it out of it's natural state. How about all of the chemicals that every t-card absorbed when they were around cigarette smoke or maybe inside the package before opened? I mean, which chemicals are we going to allow? I think we have to put the ethics debate on hold until we actually know what we are talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My read is that the beef is about making money through deception - the final state of the card is irrelevant.

I'm on the fence primarily because I don't collect graded cards, so if I could not tell that the card had been changed, I wouldn't care; however, I also realize that some people do care, and they have every right to want their cards to not be touched by chemicals.

Also, some cards end up in slabs, and I have to be aware of the implications of that for chemicalized cards.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I was hoping Wonka's post would get that question discussed, but it didn't, so I'll discuss it with myself. Unfortunately, it seems to be PSA's call. They said they wouldn't put a number on a trimmed card, so the Gretzky Wagner eventually landed people in prison. If they were to say they wouldn't slab cards treated with chemicals, then something similar could occur. If PSA says they will assign numeric grades to such 'chemical' cards, and won't indicate the chemical component, then deception (and thus, ethics) become a moot point, at least legally.



My read is that the beef is about making money through deception - the final state of the card is irrelevant.

I'm on the fence primarily because I don't collect graded cards, so if I could not tell that the card had been changed, I wouldn't care; however, I also realize that some people do care, and they have every right to want their cards to not be touched by chemicals.

Also, some cards end up in slabs, and I have to be aware of the implications of that for chemicalized cards.

In the US, it probably should be defined by the AIC, they're the standard the LOC teaches. While the practices part isn't entirely practical outside of an archive or museum, it's a good set of guidelines.
http://www.conservation-us.org/about...s#.UzIPbDeYaUk

While I've had a few cards graded, I was against it initially. (Back when it was new)
I don't believe the grade should include things like centering. Every item is made in some way, and a technical grade should indicate the state of preservation only
My other opposition was that keeping something that degrades and releases an acid that hastens the degradation inside an enclosed container can't be good for it in the long term.
Some prewar cards aren't prone to that, and will be fine. Others, and the immediate postwar cards are and may suffer in the long term.

At some point for some objects we as a hobby will have to decide between loss and preservation. Some 20's strip cards have already become brittle enough to be fragile. Even deacidification may not save them at this point. I'd expect to see this happen to late 40's cards in another 20 years. It's already possible to see the beginnings of it on some. Poor storage is the primary problem, but eventually all things printed cardstock with a high wood pulp content will degrade.

I'm occasionally amazed that the same group that sees trimming up the borders of a handcut card to make it look better as ok can be strictly against removing scrapbook residue or dirt.

Alteration purely for profit is wrong, but somewhere along the line preservation and profit take the same path.

Steve Birmingham

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The word "screwed" infers that it would lower the value of the card. Nobody knows if it would or not. Did Kendrick's T206 Wagner lose value now that we all know it's trimmed? Who knows?

I'm making the assumption that if chemical alteration could be detected, that the TPG's would not slab the card. So in my hypothetical situation, someone buys a chemically-altered PSA-slabbed '52 Mantle today, then it later gets cracked for SGC and turns out to be chemically-altered, and thus does not get a numeric grade. I think we could agree that the card's value would go down.

I'm not giving a raw '52 Mantle example, but that could end up even worse if the original buyer bought it as unaltered and the TPG later detected chemical alteration.

[chernieto]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by chernieto

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351030629038

Nice lot --with pencil markings on back. The Pencil markings altered the cards- cleaning the cards would help restore them closer to the original state which would be more appealing to my eye anyway.
Paul C.

I love the way 1/6th of a set is considered a partial set...better than a near set I suppose!!!! Not likely heavy pencil can be removed and be undetectable!

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I love the way 1/6th of a set is considered a partial set...better than a near set I suppose!!!! Not likely heavy pencil can be removed and be undetectable!

very true!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The ethics of this has been covered well by you guys, but Chris' point above really concerns me - if the TPGs either can't detect chemical alteration today, or can only do so if alerted to it beforehand (not sure if this is true), but someday they COULD be able to detect it, then some collectors today could later find themselves screwed, especially if they are purchasing '52 Mantles, T206 Planks, etc., that show no evidence today of Dick's tampering.

I believe the technology to detect such chemicals/alterations is readily available at this time...just not cost effective...I mean we're talking baseball cards here!!!!

I agree that someday if this becomes available at low cost...there will be many pissed off collectors/investors!!!

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by atx840

I'd like to see the TPGs one day be able to detect when chemicals have been used, just like PED testing has improved over the years....maybe then we will see how people feel when their pristine cards come back as "Altered".

It's your cardboard, I guess do what you want but we all know at some point most of our collections will end up back in the hobby....likely without a caveat.

Spring cleaning comes early to the Plank household...

Maybe overlooked, but in the "Spring Cleaning Comes Early To The Plank Household" thread linked above, post # 34 was very interesting:

Originally Posted by Doug

The last time I saw T206s that white was when I soaked a few beaters in warm water mixed with a small scoop of Oxi Clean just to see if it would work. They came out with borders and backs that were snow white with no chemical smell at all. I sold them with the disclosure that they had been cleaned and they later popped up on eBay in slabs.

Could it be that simple, with the Plank-maybe Oxi Clean?

Sincerely, Clayton

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here are some nice white borders.

http://www.milehighcardco.com/1915-C...-LOT33800.aspx

[ElCabron]

There is a common sense factor that is severely lacking in many of these posts. As Leon said, in the real world, water is not considered a chemical.

If you accidentally spill water on a card, should it then be considered altered? If you accidentally get a speck of ketchup on a card, do you have to leave it there, or can you wipe it off? If you wipe it off, should the card now be considered altered? Also, stop eating and drinking around your cards.

For me, it's pretty simple. Water is fine. Chemicals are not. I don't think I'm in the minority on that.

I don't have a degree in chemistry, but I can pretty much guarantee I've soaked more cards than anyone who does. So which background is more relevant to this discussion? The theoretical one, or the practical one? I don't need someone else to tell me what they think happens to cards when they're soaked. At least when they're soaked in water. I know what happens. Stains don't magically disappear in water, btw.

How many here are on board with the original poster and think his practices are okay? I'm a strong vote in the "no freaking way" column.

-Ryan

[bobbyw8469]

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Addition by subtraction. He isn't adding anything. He is taking away stuff that shouldn't be there in the first place. If someone from the 30's put rubber cement on the back of a card to post it in an album, I don't see nothing wrong with removal of the glue. He isn't filling holes, coloring borders,etc. He is removing glues and stains that shouldn't be on the card in the first place. I am sure I am in the minority here.

So will you disclose which cards of yours have been worked on by him?

[ullmandds]

i don't think this debate will ever be settled...this thread may even de-throne the monster # thread...what a sad day in mud-ville that'd be!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Let's say you're renting a house. You spill a bottle of wine on the carpet. You pay a professional carpet cleaning service to clean it because you don't want to loose your $2K deposit. The carpet cleaning service removes the stain and makes the rest of the carpet look like new. No one could ever tell a bottle of wine had been spilt. When it comes time to vacate the house, do you tell your landlord? For what? Does he even care if it's something he can't see? I keep going back to the same old point. If there is no evidence, why does it matter?

If having a stain removed from a card lowered the value of a card, I could certainly understand disclosing it. That would be common sense. However I don't think that it does - especially if it's graded after the stain is removed. Last time I looked in the SMR, there wasn't a pricing category for graded cards that have had a stained removed.

To answer a question John (Wonka) asked me earlier in this thread, yes, I do believe creases that are removed from a card should be disclosed. There's a huge difference and let me explain. It's been proven that creases can sometimes come back. The new owner of the card should know that a crease has been removed so he is aware of the possibility of the crease returning. However, there is no evidence that the stain removal process leaves any long term effects. None! Again, huge difference. And if at some point it can be proven that removing a stain can show long term effects, I would certainly change my stance. But, for now, that's how I feel.

[quinnsryche]

Some people like cards that look like they were run over by a truck (torn/folded/creased and such). Some like nice clean cards that look brand new. To each his own. If you think a card has been "tampered" with and you don't like it, leave it for the next collector. If you don't care, buy it. Do your homework, make an educated decision and live with it. It's just cards. This is a hobby, it's supposed to be fun. When it's not fun, you lose sleep over it, you go on chat boards and endlessly bitch above everything in the hobby, maybe it's time to move on to something else. Take a deep breath and chill boys!
Life's too short to get bent out of shape about whether or not a baseball card has been cleaned on not.
My 2 cents, take it or leave it.