Questions/thoughts/thanks for SCDA trip guys

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Posted By: vikes066

Many thanks to Dan, Jay and Lee for taking the time to go on this trip. Rather than have something that was the 150th post, I thought it better to start a new thread so that the guys could answer or comment some follow-up questions, comments and thoughts that I have.

a) On the photo "evidence" of DiMaggio hitting with the label down, where you given any indication of the date on those pictures and where they came from. The reason I ask that is that if the photo is not from the week that the bat was proportedly used then it is irrelevant. It may or may not have been taken years before or years afterward.

b) One of the keys to the whole issue is the lucidity or possible lack thereof of Heinrich during the taping of the interview. Some may say he would have no reason to lie about the bat, but in actuality he really would. If the tape is as edited as reported that raises some serious concerns. I have a grandmother who is 95 years old and sometimes she talks slow as well, but their lack of being able to present to you the unedited tapes leaves them open for some reasonable doubt and rightfully so.

c) Did Bushing finally reveal to anyone where his mysterious Master's Degree came from and what subject it is in? This goes to credibility issues for him as an affiliate of Mastro. People like George O'Leary have been fired for stretching the truth on their resumes to make themselves seem more than they are. I have heard that he really does not have a Master's, but unless he comes out and tells the world we may never know. If you don't believe me look at his bio on MastroNet's site. It does not give school he attended nor emphasis (subject) of the degree.

d) Does anyone find it really interesting that the self proclaimed "foremost leading and ONLY expert" in bats, gloves etc. etc would just happen to have dumb luck in this instance? If he is that lucky, have him pick me the next Powerball ticket numbers. To me, this is a huge stretch. If he is the leading expert, you would think that a "discovery" of this magnitude would have been taken a bit more time and serious preparation instead of a reported "flip" of buy from Peter and sell to Paul almost immediately at a big profit.

c) They seemed to present to you guys the "leap of faith" theory quite a bit and I don't really buy it. Let me explain why. Yes, some authentication can and is based upon "faith", but a lot can and should be based on scientific and forensic FACT. Bushing knows this. That is why he was most likely peeved about you guys bring up the Ichiro bat. He has to know he was wrong, honestly no one could be that stupid to think that it was just an honest mistake.

Examples: Bushing and the Billy Crystal Mickey Mantle glove as reported in Daily News. It was widely reported and verified by Rawlings glove company that the glove was misdated by the palm stampings that were in the pocket of the glove. That is NOT opinion, that is forensic FACT based upon the testimony of the company that produced the item. How can Bushing explain that away? (He can't...) Same as the Seaver and DiMaggio gloves and the Ichiro bat. These are mistakes and omissions that cannot be ignored or just pushed aside. To do that would be to not serve the overall collective hobby community in the correct fashion.

If you are the leading expert in the industry (or any industry mind you) you do not make these types of mistakes that are so blatent and so obviously wrong unless you are trying to make a quick buck to the unsuspecting collector. There cannot be any other reasonable explanation.

Would you not agree that he has made way too much money and has seen way too many things over the years to make these type of consistent, simpleton errors. IMHO he did not bank on anyone ever being able to prove him wrong. The internet has been a great equalizer in the amount of information available and the timeliness and speed of the spread of that information.

My grandfather (rest his soul) used to say "Fool me once... shame on you, Fool me twice..shame on me." I wonder what he would say to the industry that has been fooled multiple times?

d) Lastly did anyone (including the guys that went) think that they were going to invite you into their den and not be able to give you enough information to try and sway your opinion? Please understand that is not a knock on the guys that went. I think anyone would have been swayed a little by the evidence they were able to show that day.

The difference may be when Plancich's attorney (Adam) gets Bushing, H&B, Mastro, and whomever etc. UNDER SWORN OATH in recorded depositions where your business, livelihood, freedom etc. will be under intense scrutiny and open testimony. My bet is that there is a settlement beforehand since I'm willing to bet there is a lot of stuff that the authenticators do not want out in the public domain.

Once again thanks to Dan, Lee and Jay for going. It has been informative thus far and you should be thanked for your efforts to clear up the confusions and clean up the hobby.

Vikes066

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Many of your questions are already answered to the best of our knowledge in the other thread. I personally cannot elaborate on any of the other questions. If you are rational with wanting answers Troy and Dave are more than willing to listen and answer. This is why they are willing to set up the prestentation at the national. Troy is accessable by email.

One request to posters, leave an email address along with your post. Some of this can be handled off thread. Some posts without email addies seem to be used to hide behide (not intended specifically for Vikes, but I could have just emailed you with this information). PLease email me Vikes and I can get you in touch with Troy.

Lee

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Posted By: vikes066

Lee,

Thanks for your response. I realize that some of what I asked may or may not have been answered in the other post, however the other items have not. I know that a lot of people are interested in what is going on since there appears to be at least some validity to the claims of conflict of interest etc. etc. That is why it is best to have discussion in open forum like this.

I am most interested to Troy's or Bushing's explanation on the Master's Degree question along with proof of when and where the pictures that show DiMaggio hitting label down are from.

Bottom line is that the bat was and still is somewhat valuable as a game used/issued DiMaggio bat. I do not believe that anyone is questioning that aspect.

The murkiness comes from whether or not you believe that someone as "qualified" as Bushing would make an error of omission of that magnitude like that and then miraculously benefit by additional research after he had to refund the original buyers money. Personally that is a leap of faith that I am not willing to take, based on the glaring errors that have been raised previously. (Feel free to do so if you like though).

It seems as though he has made too much money over the years to make a mistake like that. A novice or beginner to the collectibles market maybe makes an error like that. "The world's foremost and ONLY respected authority" (paraphrasing his bio), I highly doubt it.

I guess another scenario to ponder would be if the original buyer would have kept it and then done the same additional research on his own to "prove" it was indeed a streak bat.

What do you think the chances are that Bushing and Mastro would have then given their A-10 stamp of approval with the same information if they would have let the "flipped" bat through their hands first as a non-streak bat and now someone else was going to get the big payday by showing the same research?? That is something to really think about.

Much props and respect for your dedication to cleaning up the hobby and spending your own time and effort for the trip and reporting back to the board.

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Posted By: PASJD

Why can't Troy come here and post his own answers?

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Once again, no email to answer directly.

They are not responding because of the likes of Joe and Aaron. Both of whom have corresponded with Troy as has Mr. Plantich. It is a no win situation for them because of there likes. Troy was attacked for every little thing he posted by them. You can attack them all you want and that is your right, but after meeting them and hearing what they have to offer I believe and what they are doing.

As I posted earlier they are accessable and very reasonable. This is my last words on the matter of the character of the individuals involved, they are spending alot of time and money on this matter. They have offered to give the same presentation we received at the National.

After meeting with Dave B., Troy K. and Dan Knoll I believe they are upstanding people and are trying to make the hobby better. If you are not comfortable with the baseball memorbilia niche and the people involved then I suggest finding another niche you are more comfortable with and go that, every niche has it's quirks we all need to make educated decisions on where to spend our money.

If anyone has any questions to the presentation presented to us and not the character of the individuals I will gladly answer but the rest will be ignored

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Posted By: PASJD

Omission of email inadvertent. I was not attacking Troy at all, just musing why if legitimate questions continue to be raised by people who did not have the benefit of a first-hand audience, he doesn't answer them himself. To take an "I don't post in a public forum" stance does not seem to me anyhow to be a good policy.

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Posted By: vikes066

Lee,

If you click on my name to the left you can e-mail me, but as I said earlier it is best for discussions to be in open forum so that people can make their own decisions.

I just hope that you are not personally getting upset. As I typed earlier (a couple of times) I personally have great respect for your willingness to go to SCDA and Mastro and report back on the board.

You are correct in the fact that it is not your job to defend Bushing, Troy and Knoll et al. against attacks on this board. I don't believe anyone is asking that you do that. (At least I know I am not.)

My questions to you guys were based upon the facts that you 3 went there to get some answers. So respectfully submitted:

a) Do you know whether Bushing really has a Master's Degree or not. A simple yes or no and if yes, any details would be great as to the school and emphasis of study. His bio is listed on the MastroNet website for all to see and examine. I imagine that is by their choice to show him as a credible authenticator. It is a legitimate question to ask of a "public" figure. If you don't know just say no. That's all.

b) Did they give you the dates and background info on the DiMaggio photos that I guess proved to you that Joe D. hit with the label down. To me this is a critical question as to authenticating the streak bat. Once again, yes they did show me where and when they came from or no they offered no such explanation.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

Vikes066

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

No offense was taken, You guys seem very rational in the whole matter.

As to the question of Mr. Bushings education, I know nothing of it and I was not aware it was in question.

As to the Dimaggio photos I do not remember any mention of dates but it was pointed out to us that all bats have markings all over the bat. I personally never quite understood how a bat was suppose to have marks on only one side, there is such thing as foul balls no matter how good the hitter is.

I hope this helps,

Lee

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Posted By: Mindless In Iola

Lee Behrens
(Login bowlingshoeguy) Re: Questions/thoughts/thanks for SCDA trip guys March 1 2005, 4:15 PM

"Once again, no email to answer directly.

They are not responding because of the likes of Joe and Aaron. Both of whom have corresponded with Troy as has Mr. Plantich.

It is a no win situation for them because of there likes.
Troy was attacked for every little thing he posted by them.

You can attack them all you want and that is your right, but after meeting them and hearing what they have to offer I believe and what they are doing."
*
*
*
1. What are you talking about, I have never corresponded with Troy?
Where the hell did you get that?
The only Bozo's that I've slammed openly, were you and your brother.
Dummy, I tried to stay out of this until you just brought me back in.

It is understandable that the questions being asked of you by others, are
tough for you.
The picture that we have of you is that your body was in the room, but that
your mind was in another room.

2. Troy, The Oracle, and the SCDA crew, Do Not, I repeat Do Not want to
debate the Conflict of Interest, and other issue's with the forum.
It's not their turf, and they know that the Bozo Brothers are outnumbered.
Personally, I'd rather see it in court, where it belongs.

3. Lee, every time that you and your brother open your mouth, is a case against that it pays to advertise.

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Posted By: Aaron

"They are not responding because of the likes of Joe and Aaron. Both of whom have corresponded with Troy as has Mr. Plantich. It is a no win situation for them because of there likes. Troy was attacked for every little thing he posted by them. You can attack them all you want and that is your right, but after meeting them and hearing what they have to offer I believe and what they are doing."

Hilarious!

First, Dave Bushing has never corresponded with me, so I'm not sure where you got that one from (oh, wait they said so, so it must be true!).

Bushing has not posted on the matter at all. Obviously, were he to do so, he would face some very hard, very direct questions, and that might not something he's not eager to do.

Troy, meanwhile, did post initially when he made his "demonstration" invitation, but has not since for the same reasons. And please don't gimme that he's "afraid" of being attacked by me. My e-mails (which I would be happy to post here, BTW) have been extremely cordial to Troy, even encouraging. I would welcome his participation here and if he has decided not to post, that's his choice.

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Posted By: Aaron

"The murkiness comes from whether or not you believe that someone as "qualified" as Bushing would make an error of omission of that magnitude like that and then miraculously benefit by additional research after he had to refund the original buyers money. Personally that is a leap of faith that I am not willing to take, based on the glaring errors that have been raised previously. (Feel free to do so if you like though)."

I actually think this is an interesting observation not just for the obvious (e.g., Bushing's happy coincidence), but to the degree we as customers can expect reliable service from Bushing and SCDA when submitting items to them for authentication.

Let's look at the "streak" bat instance. What if Henrich's daughter called and sold the bat to another third-party: Joe Collector, who has the money to afford a $35,000 bat, but is not a professional authenticator.

Joe Collector then submits his bat to Dave Bushing for authentication, paying Bushing for his services.

Using the same level of investigation Bushing originally used for himself, Bushing comes back to Joe Collector that it is a game used bat, but there's no mention of it being a "streak" bat. Joe Collector then decides to flip the bat and sells it to another collector for $90,000.

That collector, in turn, submits it to Lou Lampson. Lampson then discovers the bat is a "streak" bat and this new collector is able to get $300,000 at auction for the bat.

My question being, just what level of investigation and research from Bushing to we get when we submit items?

The first, surface level where Bushing sells the bat for $90,000 as game used?

Or the second, when Bushing delves deeper into the history of the bat, and it sells for $300,000?

Are there different price levels for SCDA authentication? E.g. $100 for standard surface-look and LOA? $500 for research?

Does anyone know the answer to this?

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Posted By: Aaron

Fine by me.

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Posted By: PASJD

The bottom line, it seems, is that unless Troy, Dave Bushing and others directly involved choose to post, and it appears they have made a calculated and probably rational (in a business sense) decision not to, there isn't much point in continuing to raise questions about either the DiMaggio bat specifically or the auction houses' policies generally. I think Lee and Jay and Dan have probably told us all they recall about the meeting and there isn't anything to be gained by asking them additional questions. It also appears that with the dismissal of the H&B suit no additional facts will come out as a result of litigation either. I too would like to know more, but I don't see it happening. I think this chapter of the book is over.

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Posted By: vikes066

While I love the spirited debate on this issue as much as the next guy I disagree with Aaron on his assumption that the chapter of this saga now ends with Plancich's victory vs. H&B.

Au contrare, mom ami! The worm has now turned and now the ball is in Plancich's court.

It is my opinion (and I have no facts to back this up so you have to take a "leap of faith" with me on this!) that Plancich should turn around and sue H&B for harassing a private citizen with a frivilous lawsuit for exercising his First Amendment right of free speech. H&B really stuck it to themselves. "Don't wish for what you want 'cause you just might get it!" He should sue them for his attorney's fees that he paid plus some punitive damages.

Well H&B wanted a fight and their day in court. They just might get it now. We'll have to sit back to wait and see.

I think the next chapter is beginning now and the story is starting to get good!

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at Bushing's and Mastro's after they heard the verdict. According to the other thread they told the 3 SCDA visitors they had something to add to the lawsuit on H&B's side. (I am paraphrasing here.) I wonder if they are nervous now.

Lastly no one has been able to answer my basic question on the validity or lack thereof on Bushing's Master's Degree. Does anyone know if that is true or not. I think it says a lot about a person's credibility if they tell the truth on their resume.

Vikes066

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Posted By: Aaron

Vikes, what I'm curious to is SCD's reporting of the lawsuit. Does anyone know if they actually reported on its filing at all? And if they reported on its filing, will they report on its dismissal?

Lee and Jay also mentioned that there was a "reporter" accompanying them on their tour, but they either don't know who he/she writes for or declined to say so.

Obviously, I'm extremely curious to see if the reporter was a writer for SCD and/or if there's any media coverage at all of their visit?

BTW, have you tried asking anyone at Mastro about Bushing's degree?

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Posted By: vikes066

Aaron,

I am just an average pee-on. I doubt anyone at Mastro would answer any of my questions. Especially one that could really be damaging since I have heard through the grapevine that he does NOT have a Master's even though it says so on his resume. If that is true (which I cannot confirm) that may cast further doubt as to his overall credibility.

You bring up a good point on the reporter. I thought I read that they invited Mike O'Keefee from NY Daily News and he declined to go. Not really sure about SCD and their reporting or lack of reporting on the whole Plancich situation.

I would love to read the documents regarding today's hearings. Does anyone have a link to them or can someone see them and post for all to see?

V066

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The reporter was a student from Marquette that tape recorded the presentation and followed us around during the day. He basically did not ask any questions, just sat, listened and recorded.