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  #51  
Old 01-09-2017, 04:12 PM
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EYECOLLECTVINTAGE EYECOLLECTVINTAGE is offline
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Originally Posted by Republicaninmass View Post
I figured IF I did get burned it wasn't for 750

How could you have with ebay's return policy?
I'm done here. This is brutal. It's a hobby. Bunch of grown man babies in this thread.
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  #52  
Old 01-09-2017, 04:16 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
I'm done here. This is brutal. It's a hobby. Bunch of grown man babies in this thread.
Stove..meet the kettle


I'm just going to buy "undergraded" PSA cards on ebay, and if they don't bump, I'll return them since they were properly graded. While I'm at it, let me try the "t206 Wagners" for a buck and post them here.


Doesn't sound too grown up to me.

I'm all for asking questions, and learning from the older generation, but shame on me I guess I don't use as a buying gauge on ebay..once I've already bought something questionable, at a more than reasonable price
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  #53  
Old 01-09-2017, 04:45 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Just realized I went a bit long on this one. Apologies in advance but I think it's worth a read.

On a more serious note, I see a lot of good points on both sides.

I've been in the hobby for ........... about 40 years, maybe longer depending on when I figure the start to have been. Other hobbies longer, not quite 50 years.

Over that time I've seen a LOT of changes, both in available information and in how hobbies are participated in. Some of the biggest have been in information and available experiences. When I started there were very few books of any kind, the only ones I knew of for cards were the Sports Collectors Bible - which listed a massive number of baseball sets but "sports" was a stretch since it only covered baseball. Most had no checklists, and there were no pictures! The other was the then new 78 Sport Americana checklist book. (That's what I used it for, so I'm sticking with it) Which had far fewer sets, but had a picture of one card from each set. Not in color, but a picture.
Oh yeah, there was a short list in the book of lists of the 10 most expensive/rarest cards. That's where I learned about George C Millers and why I bought the first few I got. There was really nothing at all on anything that wasn't a card. So all I knew I got from the local dealer who was knowledgeable, and the occasional show. At least until I found SCD which had articles.

One of the experiences that younger collectors just can't get anymore is
routinely seeing/handling a lot of old cards without there being some plastic involved. Every dealer had stacks of vintage cards if they had any at all. And they were just set out on the table in stacks. There's really no better way to get a literal feel for what a real card is compared to one that's not "right"
The same thing would go for any other ephemera. At the time there were few fakes, and when you found stuff like photos there would be loads of them. Bats, uniforms etc not as much, but there weren't many replica uniforms. Bats still had the whole Store bat/Pro bat/game used thing, but unless it was a big name there wasn't much financial incentive for fakery. My Dwight Evans Game bat which is cracked was a whole $9 !

The internet has really opened up a lot of information, and it's far easier to learn what a particular item should look like. And that's good, since the money has gotten big enough to attract what are probably some of what I'd call "casual fakers" the people that make their best misguided guess, add a to them plausible story and try to sell stuff. Before I learned a few things I was partway there. the first 10 speed I had had a bunch of races listed on the stickers. I thought those were all the races it had been in until the bike shop guy pointed out that if that was true it would be individual stickers and not one big one. And besides they didn't get little stickers for racing. It was a bit of a letdown, but once I heard it I realized I'd been wrong.

None of us learned stuff entirely on our own, someone somewhere along the line either told us or pointed us in the direction of the information.

So even if their methods annoy, lets be a bit more open with the new guys eh?


Now Stephen, here's the bit you might not like as much.

Most of us old guys are from what I call the "thunderdome school of business" whose motto is as you might or might not have been able to guess is "bust a deal face the wheel"
We totally don't get the whole thing of buying something then returning it. Sure, that might be ok with say LL Bean and Amazon who sort of encourage it. (And Ebay to some extent) That's what I really dislike about internet shopping. I can't actually hold the item, and can't really ask any detailed questions. So if the fabric on that new jacket seems flimsy or the controls on the new electronic device don't make sense, I'm pretty unhappy. But even then I almost never return anything. I may not buy from a place again, and I may be grouchy about stuff like my &((&^ tablet that won't stay connected to Wi-Fi even when it's 3ft from the router. But I don't return them.
I've bought a few collectibles that weren't quite what I thought they were. And I kept them, because the mistake was pretty much all mine. (Since starting Ebay in I think 98 I've returned one card. Trimmed, but not disclosed, and with a scan that was really misleading. And exactly no contact from the seller until I filed a formal complaint. ) Generally I try to learn stuff ahead of time, go with my instincts if I don't have time or can't find the right info, and live with the consequences. That being said, as a seller I had extremely liberal refund/return policies which I never put into writing because they were a bit too open. Most items that people had a legitimate problem with I refunded without taking a return. Maybe three items over 10 years.
I can't imagine trying to jump into fairly expensive stuff without developing a solid baseline of knowledge. And I really can't imagine using Ebays policies to essentially force a seller to either become my teacher for free or provide my study materials also for free. (I do however give you credit for donating some money towards the sellers little league as it sounds like he was selling to raise money for them. )


Sometimes a little harshness can make you better. One of my other collections is a group of stamps from the 1870's. Lots of errors many of them rare but sort of inexpensive. I joined a national club to get access to a series of articles about the mistakes, and had a few nice emails with the author discussing technical details. Then I found a stamp that was a fairly big deal - at least to the 5-6 people that might actually care- and sent him a scan and brief description of what I thought it was and asking for an opinion from a more experienced set of eyes. His response? A very terse "go do your own research" Kind of a bummer at the time. After a week of feeling bad I wrote the article about it- which sort of contradicted one of his. I realized that I didn't need a more experienced set of eyes, what I needed was confidence in my own! When I eventually talked to the editor of that section he asked if he could show the scans to that guy. So I told him the story. And he laughed Turned out that when the guy who told me off was getting ready to write his first article the guy he'd been learning from did essentially the same thing to him. The editors were amazing, and in a very short time made my passable article into a pretty good one finally showing a photo of a variety that had never been shown as a photo and had last been described 80 years earlier.

Steve B
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  #54  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:09 PM
Fuddjcal Fuddjcal is offline
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Oh goodie, questions and answers!

"Unfortunately, you have this "something for nothing" mentality and it really isn't becoming or a very smart way to live your life"...

according to who? GARP and other highly respected individuals

"it is your life and if you want to be a dopey buyer, go right ahead"...

Not personal at all Not particularly

"I'm sure you are a great guy and this isn't a personal attack, just my opinion."...

That is a pretty oxymoron sentence. I am an oxy moron

I won't defend myself to you. Just tell me your buyer ID and I won't bid on your junk trust me. Maybe you missed the part where I quit collecting and wouldn't use E-bay to wipe my a***. Too many douche bags

Last edited by Fuddjcal; 01-10-2017 at 02:11 PM.
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  #55  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:25 PM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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I think this summarizes my main issue with your approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
I have responsibility but am not dumb. To not take a chance on something you know nothing about when you are covered and can ask for opinions is foolish in my opinion. I have nothing to lose but learning along the way and by doing so. Just because you have been burned before, does not mean you need to be sour grapes about my approach. I figured out a way to be safe with my chances. What is wrong with that? This has nothing to do with acting like a teenager. It comes down with a simple method I use that members on here frown upon.
Let me be very clear that when I say "ignorant" for the rest of this post, I am not referring to lack of intelligence, but rather a lack of knowledge of the facts.

When you buy something out of ignorance, become a little more educated through research after the purchase, and return the item because it is not what you originally thought it might be: This is not a no-harm transaction. You may have gained a little knowledge and experience as a result, but that experience was 100% at the expense of the seller. That's not cool in my book.

You make a point that if someone isn't selling fraudulent items, they don't have to worry, because you don't return something if it's authentic. But just because something turns out to be other than what you in your ignorance assumed it to be (as in the case of the Jackie Robinson photos you recently posted about) does not make the seller a crook or a purveyor of fraudulent items.

There have been plenty of times when I have dealt with ignorant buyers: ones who had some idea of what they were looking for, but who simply did not have all their facts straight about what I was selling and somehow convinced themselves that they were getting something different. I am thankful when these ignorant buyers take the time to ask questions beforehand, and patiently explain to them why what I have is not what they are looking for, knowing that it will profit me none. Too often though, the buyers do not ask questions until after they have snatched up their "treasure" from what they take to be a seller who doesn't know his wares (after all, I've only been on eBay for 20 years!). I ship the item off, and then the questions start. "Why doesn't it have this feature? How do you know that about it? Where did you get this? Does it have a COA? How do I know it's real if it doesn't have a COA? Why didn't it come with the COA that you neither mentioned nor pictured? How can I be sure it's really what you never said it was but what I inferred you might be implying from your description that was carefully worded to not call it what I want it to be?" And I start grinding my teeth, because I know that I'm about to pay for this schlub's education by way of shipping costs, return shipping costs, fees and commissions that I will never recover from him, no matter how thoroughly I explain and point out his mistaken assumptions and that the item is exactly what I portrayed it to be. That they were wrong is not important in their eyes. What is important is that eBay will allow them to return it regardless.

I don't mind educating ignorant collectors, but resent when I am forced to pay to do so.

Do not make others pay for your education. Asking questions is free. Shipping and eBay fees are not. You have stated your approach of gambling on purchases knowing that eBay will back you up if it's not real, but seem to forget that the "back-up" you mention is always at the expense of the seller. Ebay does not spread any safety net for you that they did not first extract from the seller's pocket. And for every one or two scam artists that rightly have to eat the cost of shipping their forgery to you and having it returned, I can almost guarantee that you're going to stick it to an honest seller whose only mistake was in dealing with an ignorant collector who did not educate himself about what he was actually buying before pulling the trigger. Please, for the sake of all upstanding dealers in the room, do your research BEFORE clicking on Buy It Now.
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Last edited by thecatspajamas; 01-10-2017 at 06:27 PM.
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  #56  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:31 PM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is offline
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Outstanding post ^^^^^
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  #57  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:29 PM
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ibuysportsephemera ibuysportsephemera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecatspajamas View Post
I think this summarizes my main issue with your approach.



Let me be very clear that when I say "ignorant" for the rest of this post, I am not referring to lack of intelligence, but rather a lack of knowledge of the facts.

When you buy something out of ignorance, become a little more educated through research after the purchase, and return the item because it is not what you originally thought it might be: This is not a no-harm transaction. You may have gained a little knowledge and experience as a result, but that experience was 100% at the expense of the seller. That's not cool in my book.

You make a point that if someone isn't selling fraudulent items, they don't have to worry, because you don't return something if it's authentic. But just because something turns out to be other than what you in your ignorance assumed it to be (as in the case of the Jackie Robinson photos you recently posted about) does not make the seller a crook or a purveyor of fraudulent items.

There have been plenty of times when I have dealt with ignorant buyers: ones who had some idea of what they were looking for, but who simply did not have all their facts straight about what I was selling and somehow convinced themselves that they were getting something different. I am thankful when these ignorant buyers take the time to ask questions beforehand, and patiently explain to them why what I have is not what they are looking for, knowing that it will profit me none. Too often though, the buyers do not ask questions until after they have snatched up their "treasure" from what they take to be a seller who doesn't know his wares (after all, I've only been on eBay for 20 years!). I ship the item off, and then the questions start. "Why doesn't it have this feature? How do you know that about it? Where did you get this? Does it have a COA? How do I know it's real if it doesn't have a COA? Why didn't it come with the COA that you neither mentioned nor pictured? How can I be sure it's really what you never said it was but what I inferred you might be implying from your description that was carefully worded to not call it what I want it to be?" And I start grinding my teeth, because I know that I'm about to pay for this schlub's education by way of shipping costs, return shipping costs, fees and commissions that I will never recover from him, no matter how thoroughly I explain and point out his mistaken assumptions and that the item is exactly what I portrayed it to be. That they were wrong is not important in their eyes. What is important is that eBay will allow them to return it regardless.

I don't mind educating ignorant collectors, but resent when I am forced to pay to do so.

Do not make others pay for your education. Asking questions is free. Shipping and eBay fees are not. You have stated your approach of gambling on purchases knowing that eBay will back you up if it's not real, but seem to forget that the "back-up" you mention is always at the expense of the seller. Ebay does not spread any safety net for you that they did not first extract from the seller's pocket. And for every one or two scam artists that rightly have to eat the cost of shipping their forgery to you and having it returned, I can almost guarantee that you're going to stick it to an honest seller whose only mistake was in dealing with an ignorant collector who did not educate himself about what he was actually buying before pulling the trigger. Please, for the sake of all upstanding dealers in the room, do your research BEFORE clicking on Buy It Now.
Really well said Lance! As a long time eBay seller, I appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Jeff
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  #58  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera View Post
Really well said Lance! As a long time eBay seller, I appreciate your comments. Thanks.

Jeff

Please note. I kept the Robinson photos. I never make anyone eat shipping either. I also make sure to cancel the transaction so no one loses fees. No one gets hurt. Great post though. Still not sure why people take this "hobby" so serious. People have been responding to this thread like I murdered someone. I won't ask for help anymore. Just know that you guys lost a passionate collector who eventually would have been a great contributor. I've been on here for a while now and you guys seem to have a habit of pushing newbies away. Great job. You guys honestly took all the fun out of this if I'm being honest. I have constantly felt like I had something to prove on here to everyone minus a few good people. I felt like I had to carefully word everything as to not seem this way or that way and get lectured. Good luck. To those of you who I have dealt with, thanks and always feel free to email me with any Jackie items and I'll do the same for you when I come across things you could use.
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  #59  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
Please note. I kept the Robinson photos. I never make anyone eat shipping either. I also make sure to cancel the transaction so no one loses fees. No one gets hurt. Great post though. Still not sure why people take this "hobby" so serious. People have been responding to this thread like I murdered someone. I won't ask for help anymore. Just know that you guys lost a passionate collector who eventually would have been a great contributor. I've been on here for a while now and you guys seem to have a habit of pushing newbies away. Great job. You guys honestly took all the fun out of this if I'm being honest. I have constantly felt like I had something to prove on here to everyone minus a few good people. I felt like I had to carefully word everything as to not seem this way or that way and get lectured. Good luck. To those of you who I have dealt with, thanks and always feel free to email me with any Jackie items and I'll do the same for you when I come across things you could use.
How can you seriously not get it that people are trying to help you.
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  #60  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:35 PM
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thecatspajamas thecatspajamas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
Please note. I kept the Robinson photos. I never make anyone eat shipping either. I also make sure to cancel the transaction so no one loses fees. No one gets hurt. Great post though. Still not sure why people take this "hobby" so serious. People have been responding to this thread like I murdered someone. I won't ask for help anymore. Just know that you guys lost a passionate collector who eventually would have been a great contributor. I've been on here for a while now and you guys seem to have a habit of pushing newbies away. Great job. You guys honestly took all the fun out of this if I'm being honest. I have constantly felt like I had something to prove on here to everyone minus a few good people. I felt like I had to carefully word everything as to not seem this way or that way and get lectured. Good luck. To those of you who I have dealt with, thanks and always feel free to email me with any Jackie items and I'll do the same for you when I come across things you could use.
But your first response after hearing that they were not what you thought they were was still

Quote:
Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE View Post
Thanks! I think I am going to return these then.
I am glad that you did ultimately decide to keep the Robinson photos, but that knee-jerk reaction is what really bugs me. That post in particular I tried to focus as much as possible on identifying what you had in my response, not on all the ways that what you got was not what you thought it was.

As I said before, I don't mind educating in areas where I have knowledge to share, and I know many other board members feel the same. Even if ALL of your posts are questions, I personally have no problem with that. A big part of the board is education of and by like-minded collectors.

It's the jump first and then ask questions, followed by a flippant attitude toward returns that irks me personally. The fact that eBay no longer expects buyers to take any responsibility for their purchases does not make that attitude right, and it will never sit well with many of us, regardless of whether eBay enforces any sort of reasonable return policy or not.
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  #61  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:36 PM
khkco4bls khkco4bls is offline
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how can you seriously not get it that people are trying to help you.
no ur not period.....
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  #62  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:41 PM
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no ur not period.....
Sorry you see it that way.
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  #63  
Old 01-11-2017, 07:11 AM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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If you think education is expensive and takes a long time, try ignorance.
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  #64  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:53 PM
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EYECOLLECT VINTAGE:

I myself am not very old. I've been on this site for a couple of years. Like any "rookie", just sit back and observe. Have a small mouth and big ears. Don't ruffle the feathers. Put in your dues. Ask as many questions as you like; you'd be surprised....as nearly 100% of the people on this site are more than willing to share info. However, making numerous rash purchases and then asking questions after the fact is the entirely wrong way to go about it here. You'll get a pass (maybe 2), but it's only going to irritate people (since many people on here sell via Ebay themselves). Simply put: Put on your big boy pants, do your homework, ask a million questions before you buy anything, stop wasting the seller's time, make an informed purchase.
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