1970 Clemente Question

[JollyElm]

$(KGrHqZ,!q!FCqZPKLmUBRr+soKOSQ~~60_57.jpg

OK, I was looking at this card (not mine) and it's weird. The shot was pretty clearly taken at Shea Stadium, as Topps was wont to do, but here's the problem. Roberto Clemente is wearing his home uniform and this is definitely not Forbes Field. How does that make any sense?

The only All-Star game at Shea was to my recollection played in the year it opened, 1964. The National League players would've worn their home uniforms. Could this photograph be that old, or am I missing something?

[JollyElm]

15allstar_batsblog-blog480.jpg

Not sure if anyone cares, but I found a couple of pictures of Johnny Callison's game winning homer at the 1964 All Star Game. Roberto Clemente is in the background. Granted, they are in black and white, but it looks like a good match for the 1970 card. Surely not definitive, but I think we have a winner. Wow, didn't realize Topps reached that far back in their archives for shots.

[savedfrommyspokes]

SNIPED BY THE OP...But, For whatever reason, Topps used the same image for both the 65 and 68 Mays. So it would not be a stretch that Topps may have used an image from a 64 AS game on the 70 card for Clemente. Good job picking up on the home uniform...for me looking at the crowd in the upper deck in LF would make me think that it was a big game of sorts (an AS game). Below is a link to an image from the 64 AS game...uniform looks the same(including the long sleeves in July)...good call!

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...at-citi-field/

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

SNIPED BY THE OP...But, For whatever reason, Topps used the same image for both the 65 and 68 Mays. So it would not be a stretch that Topps may have used an image from a 64 AS game on the 70 card for Clemente. Good job picking up on the home uniform...for me looking at the crowd in the upper deck in LF would make me think that it was a big game of sorts (an AS game). Below is a link to an image from the 64 AS game...uniform looks the same(including the long sleeves in July)...good call!

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...at-citi-field/

Haha!!! Sorry. When I get something in my head, I wanna see it through.
I always thought those Mays cards were an extreme example of reaching back in the archives and that's only a three year gap (they also used his 1966 pic in 1969), but a 6 year gap? Yowzers.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Haha!!! Sorry. When I get something in my head, I wanna see it through.
I always thought those Mays cards were an extreme example of reaching back in the archives and that's only a three year gap (they also used his 1966 pic in 1969), but a 6 year gap? Yowzers.

No worries at all...At some point, I read about an even larger gap of time between when the photo Topps used was actually taken and was then subsequently used on a card, but I am unable to recall the details other than it was from the 60s. It must have been frustrating for the many Mays collectors in the 60s to have not one, but two recycled images appear on his cards.

[hangman62]

Yes, I see that, another tell tale sign of re-use of old photos, it looks like Mays is wearing a toupee, and in the other pic..three yrs later....you still see the toupee peeking out of the batting helmet

[con40]

How can we be sure that this isn't a Pirates road uni? The gray tones could be blown out by sunlight, flash or contrasty image preparation. The pants certainly look like they could be gray.

[JollyElm]

Those pants are white. It's just some shadowing you're seeing.

Traditionally, home teams had either their logo or team name on their uniforms, while road teams had the city (i.e. 'Pittsburgh') from whence they came emblazoned on theirs. I'm pretty certain if someone sought out contemporary pictures from Forbes Field, you'd see the Pirates wearing that selfsame uniform. (I always wanted to use 'selfsame' in a sentence!)

[nolemmings]

I think Keith brings up a good point about the gray vs. white issue. Moreover and despite tradition, all Pirates uniforms throughout Clemente's entire career said Pirates and not Pittsburgh--whether road or home--at least according to Marc Okkonen's database.

[JollyElm]

I guess I'm lucky I used the word "Traditionally." That could've been embarrassing!

[JollyElm]

clemente2.jpg

Here's another shot at Shea from what looks like the same era. Looks white to me...although there is a little contrast there on the shirt. Hmmm...

[Jeff Alcorn]

Hi,

I've been collecting Topps since '67, and I think that you can find this problem with many different cards in various years. During the 1960s most teams had road uniforms that were light gray, and can appear white due to lighting effects when the picture was taken. Sometimes it was the sunlight, and sometimes it was due to the lighting that Topps would set up using reflectors on the ground when they were shooting the pictures. Other teams like the Angels, Pilots/Brewers, White Sox, Expos, and Royals- to name a few- had a blue to blue/gray road uniform that was easier to detect. Also, many teams had the distinction between home and road uniforms made obvious due to pinstripes, change in front lettering, or piping around the neck or sleeves. The Pirates- like the Angels, Indians, Expos, Cardinals, and Senators in 1969 (when this photo was most likely taken) - had exact matching uniforms for home and road- the only difference being the white or gray material.

The Roberto Clemente card is not an old picture from 1964 or so, and he is wearing the Pirates' road uniform. The same lighting effect is seen on #8 Jose Martinez (especially on his back), #551 Dock Ellis, #470 Willie Stargell, #236 Bob Veale, #166 Al Oliver, & #216 Chuck Hartenstein. All of these cards exhibit the brightness effect in varying degrees. Somewhere in between are #110 Bob Moose & #423 Jerry May. The gray is much more obvious on #52 Bruce Dal Canton, #94 Freddie Patek, #264 Richie Hebner, #322 Luke Walker, # 440 Bill Mazeroski, #517 Joe Gibbon, & #664 Bob Robertson. All of the pictures for these cards (along with #350 Roberto Clemente) were taken at Shea Stadium and the players are wearing the Pirates' road uniform.

The Pirates' home uniform of that era was bright white. You can see it in 1970 Topps on card #389 Jim Shellenback, #396 Steve Blass, #532 Danny Murtaugh, #626 Dave Ricketts, & #703 Lou Marone. Also check 1969 Topps #263 Jerry May, #286 Dock Ellis, #335 Bill Mazeroski, #384 Larry Shepard (a repeated picture from 1968), #409 Bob Moose, & #498 Juan Pizarro, along with 1971 Topps #47 Johnny Jeter. All of these home uniform shots were taken during Spring training in Florida.

To see the lighting effect on other uniforms I grabbed 2 1969s out of my set and they both show the brightness effect. #319 Ken McMullen is in the Senators' road uniform at Yankee Stadium, but the picture is very bright. The Senators' home uniform had navy blue pinstripes. #327 Willie Crawford is wearing the Dodgers' road uniform, and at first glance the card appears whitish, but it has the "Los Angeles" script and not the "Dodgers" script of the home uniform.

From the 1950s through most of the 1970s Topps took a majority of their pictures in New York, San Francisco/Oakland and in Spring training. So if the picture they used on the card was taken during the previous season, it generally - not always- but generally was taken in New York or the Bay area, especially New York. If a player from a non-New York or Bay area based team was pictured in their home uniform the picture was generally- again, not always- from Spring training.

Regarding the use of old or repeated photos, check out Wayne Causey 1963-64-65, and Earl Wilson 1968-69-70. Also, the 1969 Topps deckle edge Willie Mays was taken at Wrigley Field in 1958 or 1959- look at his 1960 Topps card and you will see the same picture as the small black & white photo next to the color head shot. So the 1969 deckle card used a picture either 10 or 11 years old. Mays also has the same picture in 65 & 68 also 66 & 69. These cards use the same photos as well: Al Downing 68 & 69, Al Kaline 66 & 69, Ernie Banks 68 & 69, Hank Aaron 68 & 69, Tommy Davis 60 & 61, 63 & 64 also 65 & 66, Tommie Aaron 63 & 69, Tom Seaver 68 & 69, Larry Shepard 68 & 69, Willie Davis 69 & 70, Donn Clendenon 67 & 69, Carl Yastrzemski 60 & 61, 63 & 64 and 68 & 69, Luis Aparicio 68 & 69, Ken Boyer 68 & 69, Brooks Robinson 67 & 69, Rich Allen 70 & 72, Willie Horton 69 & 71, Jim Davenport 67 & 69, Leon Wagner 64 & 68 also 67 & 69, Mike Shannon 67 & 69, Don Cardwell 67 & 69, Wilbur Wood 68 & 69, Sandy Alomar 68 & 69, Roy White 68 & 69, Jack Hiatt 67 & 69, Frank Howard 62 & 64, Jim Hannan 67 & 69, etc., etc. There are many more, but I have gone on too long already. I hope some of this information is helpful, and thanks for your patience.

Jeff

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alcorn

Hi,

I've been collecting Topps since '67, and I think that you can find this problem with many different cards in various years. During the 1960s most teams had road uniforms that were light gray, and can appear white due to lighting effects when the picture was taken. Sometimes it was the sunlight, and sometimes it was due to the lighting that Topps would set up using reflectors on the ground when they were shooting the pictures. Other teams like the Angels, Pilots/Brewers, White Sox, Expos, and Royals- to name a few- had a blue to blue/gray road uniform that was easier to detect. Also, many teams had the distinction between home and road uniforms made obvious due to pinstripes, change in front lettering, or piping around the neck or sleeves. The Pirates- like the Angels, Indians, Expos, Cardinals, and Senators in 1969 (when this photo was most likely taken) - had exact matching uniforms for home and road- the only difference being the white or gray material.

The Roberto Clemente card is not an old picture from 1964 or so, and he is wearing the Pirates' road uniform. The same lighting effect is seen on #8 Jose Martinez (especially on his back), #551 Dock Ellis, #470 Willie Stargell, #236 Bob Veale, #166 Al Oliver, & #216 Chuck Hartenstein. All of these cards exhibit the brightness effect in varying degrees. Somewhere in between are #110 Bob Moose & #423 Jerry May. The gray is much more obvious on #52 Bruce Dal Canton, #94 Freddie Patek, #264 Richie Hebner, #322 Luke Walker, # 440 Bill Mazeroski, #517 Joe Gibbon, & #664 Bob Robertson. All of the pictures for these cards (along with #350 Roberto Clemente) were taken at Shea Stadium and the players are wearing the Pirates' road uniform.

The Pirates' home uniform of that era was bright white. You can see it in 1970 Topps on card #389 Jim Shellenback, #396 Steve Blass, #532 Danny Murtaugh, #626 Dave Ricketts, & #703 Lou Marone. Also check 1969 Topps #263 Jerry May, #286 Dock Ellis, #335 Bill Mazeroski, #384 Larry Shepard (a repeated picture from 1968), #409 Bob Moose, & #498 Juan Pizarro, along with 1971 Topps #47 Johnny Jeter. All of these home uniform shots were taken during Spring training in Florida.

To see the lighting effect on other uniforms I grabbed 2 1969s out of my set and they both show the brightness effect. #319 Ken McMullen is in the Senators' road uniform at Yankee Stadium, but the picture is very bright. The Senators' home uniform had navy blue pinstripes. #327 Willie Crawford is wearing the Dodgers' road uniform, and at first glance the card appears whitish, but it has the "Los Angeles" script and not the "Dodgers" script of the home uniform.

From the 1950s through most of the 1970s Topps took a majority of their pictures in New York, San Francisco/Oakland and in Spring training. So if the picture they used on the card was taken during the previous season, it generally - not always- but generally was taken in New York or the Bay area, especially New York. If a player from a non-New York or Bay area based team was pictured in their home uniform the picture was generally- again, not always- from Spring training.

Regarding the use of old or repeated photos, check out Wayne Causey 1963-64-65, and Earl Wilson 1968-69-70. Also, the 1969 Topps deckle edge Willie Mays was taken at Wrigley Field in 1958 or 1959- look at his 1960 Topps card and you will see the same picture as the small black & white photo next to the color head shot. So the 1969 deckle card used a picture either 10 or 11 years old. Mays also has the same picture in 65 & 68 also 66 & 69. These cards use the same photos as well: Al Downing 68 & 69, Al Kaline 66 & 69, Ernie Banks 68 & 69, Hank Aaron 68 & 69, Tommy Davis 60 & 61, 63 & 64 also 65 & 66, Tommie Aaron 63 & 69, Tom Seaver 68 & 69, Larry Shepard 68 & 69, Willie Davis 69 & 70, Donn Clendenon 67 & 69, Carl Yastrzemski 60 & 61, 63 & 64 and 68 & 69, Luis Aparicio 68 & 69, Ken Boyer 68 & 69, Brooks Robinson 67 & 69, Rich Allen 70 & 72, Willie Horton 69 & 71, Jim Davenport 67 & 69, Leon Wagner 64 & 68 also 67 & 69, Mike Shannon 67 & 69, Don Cardwell 67 & 69, Wilbur Wood 68 & 69, Sandy Alomar 68 & 69, Roy White 68 & 69, Jack Hiatt 67 & 69, Frank Howard 62 & 64, Jim Hannan 67 & 69, etc., etc. There are many more, but I have gone on too long already. I hope some of this information is helpful, and thanks for your patience.

Jeff

Hey Jeff,
Thanks for your dissertation on Topps photos! A thorough assessment. Awesome!
As a Mets fan, I was always acutely aware of the multitude of shots taken at Shea, so being on the lookout for them was second nature to me. And that's why this whole problem developed. If I only knew beforehand that Pittsburgh's home and away uniforms were so similar to each other back then, I could've avoided this whole situation to begin with! Live and learn.
--elm

[Tomman1961]

Hangman62- if Mays has the toupee as far back in 1965 doesn't that refute your idea that the gum given to players to stick the toupee on was not until the 1980's?

[Paul S]

That's why the Yankees wear pinstripe at home and gray away.

Regarding the great toupee/hairpiece pandemic on the forum. Fact: Howard Cosell used Bazooka/Topps gum dating as far back to 65T. The problem was that he would throw away the cards. Topps got pissed and cancelled his contract. Cosell then went with Fleer and inferior gum. That's when Howard's 'hair' was mussed on national TV. You can look it up!

[nolemmings]

Thanks for the explanation Jeff. BTW, however the '66 and '69 Kalines are not the same photo-- taken moments apart maybe, but not the same.

[Jeff Alcorn]

Hi Darren,

I hope that I wasn't too long winded. I enjoy uniform discussions, and loved pulling out cards for comparison, etc. By the way, the principal of my junior high here in Southern California actually interrupted classes with the announcement that the Mets had just won the 1969 World Series. Kids went crazy here cheering- that team really had a national following. Also, the 1968 Ed Charles is one of my favorite cards of all time.

Todd- thanks for the note on the 2 Kaline cards- you are absolutely correct. I had that one stuck in my head as being the same shot, but they are definitely different pictures.

Thanks again guys,

Jeff